So, I Haven't Seen McCain Signs, Stickers Around Town

[007]

I am NOT a passionate supporter of John McCain. The only reason I support him is because he is much better than the other choice, being Barack H. Obama. McCain does not share my social conservative values, nor does he support the values of the party base. If he wins (and I believe he will), he will win because of Moderate Republicans, Independents, and TRUE (now considered moderate) Democrats. He, and the groups of people stated above, are attempting to redefine the GOP. They are attempting to take our party to the middle of the road, and it won't happen. The base is not energized. The only possible boost for him with conservatives is his VP choice. Other than that, someone can draft a conservative at the Convention.

He does share my Foreign Policy views, as well as my views on taxes and guns. He does not share my views on Social Security, Immigration, etc.

Give me a conservative and I'll vote for him. Otherwise, John McCain is the lesser of two evils.

Then mccain being on the ticket and the lessor of two evils is not your fault. I didn't vote mccain either, and won't, period. I voted for Duncan Hunter in the Nevada caucus.

ITA. I'll be voting against Obama, not for McCain.

I'm tired of doing this Gunny. I'm tired of the republicans, who I think are getting further and further away from their base, and the dems having a strangle hold on the election system. I think it's high time people start voting for who they want, and that's exactly what I'll be doing this year. And the way I look at it, if hussein got elected, it's not my fault. I didn't vote for him. Blame the people that voted for him, they put him there.

What is there to lose?

Either there's an obvious left wing liberal as president, or there's a "moderate" republican who in the past has publicly stated he'd like to leave the party and run Independent, and who also has a staunch liberal as a mentor. The only difference is one is obvious, and the other pretends not to be, while he obviously would rather lean left and just trick conservatives into thinking he wouldn't.

If Republicans vote McCain, and he wins, the establishment wins as well, and will continue to go on thinking they can supply us with whatever candidate they want, and we'll eat it up like candy.

Republicans wanted a conservative, but apparently not bad enough. And now they're complaining they didn't get a conservative.

So don't vote McCain then, or shut the fuck up.

It's our party to take back, if we want it.

I think what happened this year is we had a bunch of good choices. Personally, Hunter was my first choice, then Tancredo, then Paul, then Thompson. They're all pretty darn good conservatives, but with the vote so split up between all those choices, juan mclame back doored himself in. Had there been ONE good conservative instead of so many to vote for, we wouldn't have this OLD RINO douche bag mclame on the republican ticket.

Yeah, but look a the consequences of the alternative. You're willing to sacrifice four years of this nation to an ultra-leftwing elitist just to take a stand on the political paradigm.

I agree that it sucks, but you need to face a little reality. Both the left and right have been moving left since "left and right" was invented. It's the natural evolution of politics in a democracy. We'll go down the shitter just like the rest of them did because of it, but nothing short of a totalitarian dictatorship will stop it.

And I find THAT unacceptable unless *I* get to be the dictator.

Sometimes people won't learn unless it's the hard way Gunny. If hussein gets elected and fucks things up royal, then hopefully those stupid ass sons a bitches that put him there will have learned something, and if nothing else, the conservatives should learn they need to take back their party.

 

[William Joyce]

Both the left and right have been moving left since "left and right" was invented.

ABSOLUTELY correct.

 

[William Joyce]

McCain does nothing for me.

So, even comparing him to prune juice was going too far!

 

[maneal]

My friend, I am VERY active in my community when it comes to politics. I did many things to advance the Conservative Agenda. There was only one good choice this time for Republicans, and he got in later than the rest.

I can vote for McCain and not like it at the same time.

 

[Toro]

I think the point is dead on and why Obama is going to win.

The talking heads are all yacking on about independents and the white working class vote. All that means jack in the GOP base stays home, which I think it will with McCain.

But I think that if the Republicans had picked someone who appealed to the base, they would have been blown out of the water.

 

[Gunny]

I'm tired of doing this Gunny. I'm tired of the republicans, who I think are getting further and further away from their base, and the dems having a strangle hold on the election system. I think it's high time people start voting for who they want, and that's exactly what I'll be doing this year. And the way I look at it, if hussein got elected, it's not my fault. I didn't vote for him. Blame the people that voted for him, they put him there.

I can't exactly claim to be thrilled with the GOP myself, but dropping out is not the solution. I don't know what is. Politicians period -- not just the GOP -- no longer represent us.

I'm not thrilled with McCain. The GOP grandstanded that choice every bit as much as the DNC screwed over Hillary.

Sometimes people won't learn unless it's the hard way Gunny. If hussein gets elected and fucks things up royal, then hopefully those stupid ass sons a bitches that put him there will have learned something, and if nothing else, the conservatives should learn they need to take back their party.

You mean like the people learned by electing this same clown act in 1976?

 

[Jon]

The talking heads are all yacking on about independents and the white working class vote. All that means jack in the GOP base stays home, which I think it will with McCain.

You've lost your mind. The GOP base will come out in droves to keep Obama out of office. You can take that to the bank.

 

[Toro]

You've lost your mind. The GOP base will come out in droves to keep Obama out of office. You can take that to the bank.

Yeah, just like the GOP base came out in droves to support Dole and beat Slick Willie in 1996. Or just like the Democrat base came out to support Kerry and beat Bush in 2004.

It simply doesn't work that way. People do not come out en mass to vote against a candidate. They come out en mass to support a candidate.

 

[Shogun]

Well, I mean, if California's supreme court starts to influence any more states within the next couple of months OR the supreme court decides to determine if a state that bans gay marriage must acknowledge Mass and Cali soon... then yes, they WILL come out in droves.


I have to say.. these have been MASTERFUL ripostes to an otherwise left leaning electioncycle.

 

[Jon]

Yeah, just like the GOP base came out in droves to support Dole and beat Slick Willie in 1996. Or just like the Democrat base came out to support Kerry and beat Bush in 2004.

It simply doesn't work that way. People do not come out en mass to vote against a candidate. They come out en mass to support a candidate.

There's never been a black person running. Trust me, people vote to keep races out of office. In Southern states, you'll see lines of racist rednecks waiting anxiously to keep Obama out of office. It's sad, too, because the Southern states are the only reason Obama beat Clinton, and in the end, they won't matter one damn bit when it comes to the general election. He won't win the states he needs.

 

[jillian]

There's never been a black person running. Trust me, people vote to keep races out of office. In Southern states, you'll see lines of racist rednecks waiting anxiously to keep Obama out of office. It's sad, too, because the Southern states are the only reason Obama beat Clinton, and in the end, they won't matter one damn bit when it comes to the general election. He won't win the states he needs.

I'm don't believe that to be the case. But interesting that's what you focus on when you have nothing else to smear him with.

Ultimately, it's irrelevant... as is Hillary because he's the nominee. Even in states where Hillary won, twice as many people came out to vote for Obama as every voted for McCain.

You really need to think about the implications of that.

He's also got about four times the cash on hand that McCain has.

 

[Ravi]

And, "town" is Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C.

A fairly purple area, really, but... I've seen Obama everywhere, Paul everywhere, Hillary everywhere, a few Huckabees left over. Heck, I even saw a bumper sticker for Duncan Hunter a while ago.

But no McCain.

Nothing.

I think it's a little early yet. I've only seen Hillary ones, no Obama, no McCain. And several leftover "don't blame me, I voted for Kerry."

 

[Jon]

Even in states where Hillary won, twice as many people came out to vote for Obama as every voted for McCain.

Your argument has a major flaw. Few people voted in the Republican primaries this year because the nomination was wrapped up very early. Look at the early primary states. Look at the number of voters in the Iowa caucuses. Republicans were getting far more voters in those early contests. Also, remember that there were a lot more candidates in the Republican contests, so the votes were more spread out.

 

[Paulie]

Yeah, but look a the consequences of the alternative. You're willing to sacrifice four years of this nation to an ultra-leftwing elitist just to take a stand on the political paradigm.

I agree that it sucks, but you need to face a little reality. Both the left and right have been moving left since "left and right" was invented. It's the natural evolution of politics in a democracy. We'll go down the shitter just like the rest of them did because of it, but nothing short of a totalitarian dictatorship will stop it.

And I find THAT unacceptable unless *I* get to be the dictator.

Look at it like this..

Obama for 4 years, or the Republican brass continuing to give us whoever they want for who the fuck KNOWS how long. Who's our next Republican nominee going to be, Phil Gramm? How about Giuliani next time, only THIS time he actually gets nominated?

As long as we keep eating their horse shit, they will continually feed it to us with the understanding that we always will.

The simple fact that voters vote against the other side rather than FOR THEIR side, is how the establishment wins every cycle. The entire establishment is liberal as fuck, BOTH sides. So they'd rather have the more left-leaning candidates. They offered the perfect candidate in McCain, because he appeals to lefties, centrists, and even righties.

I'm tired of the Republican nominee appealing to lefties. How ridiculous is that? The Republican Party is supposed to be the alternative to liberalism, and now it's anything BUT.

If we give them McCain this year, we lose and they win. So yeah, I'd settle for 4 years of Obama if it meant energizing the Republican base to get their fucking heads out of their asses and take the party back in 2012. Don't get that twisted though. I won't be voting for Obama, I'll be voting 3rd party for a candidate I actually WANT to be president.

At least I won't feel like I need to immediately run home and take a shower.

 

[Steerpike]

Your argument has a major flaw. Few people voted in the Republican primaries this year because the nomination was wrapped up very early. Look at the early primary states. Look at the number of voters in the Iowa caucuses. Republicans were getting far more voters in those early contests. Also, remember that there were a lot more candidates in the Republican contests, so the votes were more spread out.

Yeah, the GOP primary didn't generate nearly as much interest, particularly down the stretch. Hopefully the Dems won't mistake that into thinking they're going to have it easy in November. Every indication is that it is going to be quite close. It will be interesting to see if that changes in the interim.

 

[Shogun]

this is why i dont think the US will see more than two parties by ADDING a third but by fracturing each in half.

 

[maneal]

Yeah, just like the GOP base came out in droves to support Dole and beat Slick Willie in 1996. Or just like the Democrat base came out to support Kerry and beat Bush in 2004.

It simply doesn't work that way. People do not come out en mass to vote against a candidate. They come out en mass to support a candidate.

The entire GOP base did not come out to vote for Dole. Lets not forget our conservative friend Ross Perot. The ONLY reason Clinton won BOTH TIMES is because the GOP was split between conservative Perot and moderately conservative Dole.

In 2004, the Democratic base was not strong enough to defeat the Republican Base. They came out to remove Bush and failed.

______

Now on to the other part of the topic.

John McCain does not excite the GOP base to come vote for him, however, I think a good portion of the base will come out to vote AGAINST Obama. This race (as long as no viable 3rd party candidates enter the race) will be "Vote For Obama" or "Vote Against Obama." That is the way the 2008 Election will be viewed. Obama is SO far left that he is going to massively lose the moderate and independent vote. You see, McCain is banking on not having to win over Conservatives to be elected. He believes that he can do it without us. Because of his centrist views, we will win over some Dems, a lot of Independents, and the Middle-of-the-road Republicans.

The GOP is trending slightly to the left side of the right, but only because we do not have a powerful conservative leader keeping it straight. I believe that the party will eventually return to the conservative side, but not until McCain is well in office (or even Obama). The GOP will not be pulled to the left side completely. The party will come to its senses before that happens.

Here is my response to why I want McCain in office over Obama (especially if the Liberals keep control of congress).

Although McCain will roll over on some issues with the Democrats, he will defend our country against Global Terrorism and other military and defense issues. Obama will make the country take a very relaxed stance on Global Terrorism. He will de-militarize the country. He will attempt to drop defense spending. Obama will not defend this country the way Bush has, nor the way McCain will.

Social issues are going to change to a more Liberal stance with both Obama or McCain. But Obama WILL NOT defend America. McCain will. THAT is why McCain should be president. The ONLY reason, in this political circumstance.

 

[Toro]

The entire GOP base did not come out to vote for Dole. Lets not forget our conservative friend Ross Perot. The ONLY reason Clinton won BOTH TIMES is because the GOP was split between conservative Perot and moderately conservative Dole.

In the 1996 election, Clinton won 49.2% of the vote. Dole won 40.7% of the vote. Perot won 8.4%. Even if Dole won every single Perot vote - a highly unlikely outcome - then he was still 0.1% behind Clinton.

United States presidential election, 1996 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So Perot effected the 1992 election but Clinton won the 1996 on his own.

Besides, the 1996 election does not refute the notion that voters are usually not motivated enough to defeat a candidate if they intensely dislike a candidate. The Republicans could not generate enough of a reason for the 8% of Perot voters to vote for Dole.

2008 will be no different. McCain will have to win it. Republicans wishing for Obama to lose it are going to be sorely disappointed, considering that he is a much stronger campaigner and speaker than McCain.

 

[maneal]

In the 1996 election, Clinton won 49.2% of the vote. Dole won 40.7% of the vote. Perot won 8.4%. Even if Dole won every single Perot vote - a highly unlikely outcome - then he was still 0.1% behind Clinton.

United States presidential election, 1996 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So Perot effected the 1992 election but Clinton won the 1996 on his own.

Besides, the 1996 election does not refute the notion that voters are usually not motivated enough to defeat a candidate if they intensely dislike a candidate. The Republicans could not generate enough of a reason for the 8% of Perot voters to vote for Dole.

2008 will be no different. McCain will have to win it. Republicans wishing for Obama to lose it are going to be sorely disappointed, considering that he is a much stronger campaigner and speaker than McCain.

Well we all know from the rules that popular vote some times does not necessarily decide the President. There are more factors than Perot, granted, but Clinton MAY have not been President. If Perot wouldn't have run in 92, Clinton would have lost and may have never became President. All that is in the past, but the vote count would suggest that.

As for Obama: He only speaks well when he has a script in front of him. Wait until the Town Halls, or even the debates. McCain will smoke him. Clinton smoked Obama in the Pennsylvania debate for that very same reason. Obama only does well when it is written for him. I'm not saying McCain is the best public speaker, but he is calm and consistent. I think he does better unscripted. He doesn't bumble like Obama did (ie. Thursday) or does.

 

[jillian]

Yeah, the GOP primary didn't generate nearly as much interest, particularly down the stretch. Hopefully the Dems won't mistake that into thinking they're going to have it easy in November. Every indication is that it is going to be quite close. It will be interesting to see if that changes in the interim.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think it's going to be a cakewalk.