Smoking banned in private homes.

[Anguille]

You know, as much as I hate people telling other people what to do in the personal lives, there is an aspect to this where I would have to side (somewhat) with law. I lived in an apartment once where I had a person move in below me who smoked like a chimney. It made my apartment unbearable and no amount of talking with the person helped. I ended up having to move and had to fight with the landlord to get my deposit back. I do have a more pronounced reaction to smoke than most people so the circumstances aren't typical but unless the apartments aren't sealed I could see it creating problems for others.

I feel the same. Old buildings and even lots of new ones have problems with air circulation. Even with doors and windows closed it seeps out when they are opened. Fortunately more and more landlords have no smoking clauses in their leases. Cleaning up after smokers move out is a pain in the ass! Not to mention you can't really get the smell out till a long time has past. People don't want to rent someone else's old ashtray.

 

[KittenKoder]

This is just ridiculous.

BELMONT, California: During her 50 years of smoking, Edith Frederickson says she has lit up in restaurants and bars, airplanes and trains, and indoors and out, all as part of a two-pack-a-day habit that she regrets not a bit. But as of two weeks ago, Frederickson can no longer smoke in the one place she loves the most: her home.

Frederickson lives in an apartment in Belmont, California, a quiet city about 23 miles, or 37 kilometers, south of San Francisco that is now home to perhaps the nation's strictest anti-smoking law, effectively outlawing lighting up in all apartment buildings.

Smoking ban extends to apartments in California city - International Herald Tribune

You know, as much as I hate people telling other people what to do in the personal lives, there is an aspect to this where I would have to side (somewhat) with law. I lived in an apartment once where I had a person move in below me who smoked like a chimney. It made my apartment unbearable and no amount of talking with the person helped. I ended up having to move and had to fight with the landlord to get my deposit back. I do have a more pronounced reaction to smoke than most people so the circumstances aren't typical but unless the apartments aren't sealed I could see it creating problems for others.

In this instance your ex-landlord was at fault, for not giving your deposit back though. The rest is not something that much could or should have been done. When any apartment becomes unlivable to a tenant they are entitled to a full refund of the deposit and the lease is considered null and void by the law, for whatever reason so long as it can be proven. Newer buildings (at least in my area) are more sealed than the older ones, the newest insulation techniques actually prevent even heat from being exchanged between apartments. Though it was done for energy efficiency it has the added benefit that whatever smoke, incense, or perfumes used in one apartment do not leak into the others nearby. The only place this does not help is right in front of the apartment because of the door.

 

[Shogun]

Again, I'd ban your ass from my bar and then buy a round of Gas Masks for those employees who want to wear them and have risk management documents for those who dont to sign. But, heaven fucking forbid your pink lunger agenda be treated like the "projected" bullshit that it is, eh Anguille?

Are you going to call it Montezuma's ?

No, I was thinking "Fuck You, This Is A Smoking Establishment You Pink Lunger Bastards, Love The Shogun"


Do you think you would have enough info to make a wise personal choice with a name like that?

 

[Anguille]

Again, I'd ban your ass from my bar and then buy a round of Gas Masks for those employees who want to wear them and have risk management documents for those who dont to sign. But, heaven fucking forbid your pink lunger agenda be treated like the "projected" bullshit that it is, eh Anguille?

Are you going to call it Montezuma's ?

No, I was thinking "Fuck You, This Is A Smoking Establishment You Pink Lunger Bastards, Love The Shogun"


Do you think you would have enough info to make a wise personal choice with a name like that?

Depends. Will you have a paved parking lot? Will you be serving cheddar cheese pizza? Can I bring my squirrel?

 

[tigerbob]

Sorry - this is a really long post but I wanted to clearly summarize our positions before getting to what will be the really contentious bit at the end of this post!

(Relating to ongoing discussion on Belief #6)
I'm not quite sure still where your degree of disagreement stems from.Your first 2 sentences are sort of preamble, and the third and fourth sentences (workplace / barstaff) don't seem to contradict my statement.

By the way, non user means what it says. Someone who does not use. Whether it is never used or used to use but has now stopped doesn't really make a difference as far as I can tell.

If you disagree or want to clarify further please let me know. Otherwise...

I'll stick with my own previous two posts clarifying my opinons on those subject. For probably the same reasons you find mine unclear, I find yours unclear. I think though that so far we are on the same page, minus a few ambiguities.

#8: Many media reports, and most STS legislation are based on studies generated by well respected organizations such at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the World Health Organization (WHO).

I can agree with #8.

BTW Bob I appreciate your non hysterical logical approach to this issue. It's a pleasure to be able to discuss this subject with someone who is truely interested in all the aspects of the issue - without trying to derail it with aspersions anf attemts to derail me by suggesting I lie or deserved to be fired - and who doesn't feel threatened by people who don't agree with yoiu. It's so hard for smokers and non smokers to discuss the smoking issues, especially in person. Most of the talk goes on behind people's backs. In this thread I am seeing just how emotional some smokers get and understanding the hostile looks I sometimes get when I ask people to respect the non smoking rules in non smoking areas. Actually I never ask them to put out the cigarette. I ask them to away from me on the platform or in the subway car. Public transportation is where I most have this problem.

But I'm going off on a tangent. Thanks again for this opportunity to discuss things as rationally as posiible and i hope you will be willing to answer a few questions of my own later on.

More than happy to answer your questions, which I suspect will be immediately after I post question 9. But first, a quick recap.

You agree completely with my statements 1 through 6 (though with 6, you think we are "on the same page, minus a few ambiguities", as articulated above ). My positions and your views are as below - some have been edited, but for brevity, not to change either the meaning or the intent.

1. Primary smoking (i.e. someone lighting a cigarette, drawing on it, inhaling it and exhaling), if done repeatedly over a number of years, is highly likely to cause the smoker serious health defects including but not limited to several kinds of cancer, bronchitis, heart disease, stroke and emphysema.

I agree.

#2. While not offensive to all non smokers, the smell of tobacco smoke to the majority of non smokers varies between simply unpleasant to practically unbearable. The smell of tobacco gets into clothes, hair and furniture.

yes

#3. Non smokers have a right to be able to choose and enjoy a smoke free atmosphere in public. This right overrides the 'perceived right' of smokers to be able to smoke anywhere they want.

yes.
Smokers can put out their cigarettes. It won't kill them to do so. But the people around them can't stop breathing and breathing in the smoker's smoke may end up killing them, causing them harm or at the very least annoying them and damaging their clothing.
Smokers have other choices which allow them to get their nicotine fix in public places without affecting those near him. The only choice a non smoker has is to leave if a smoker lights up. But since it is a public place, the non smoker should not be denied his right to be there because of the smoker's insistence on drugging him/herself in a manner which will drug all those within breathing distance.

4. The tobacco industry has tried to dispute claims about the toxicity of Secondary Tobacco Smoke (STS). Like any entity with a vested interest, their representations should be viewed with suspicion.

So keep asking and I'll keep answering and maybe we'll find we have more common ground than not.
And yes, I agree with you so far, your last included.

Belief #5: The government, the media and science almost without exception express agreement with the claim that STS in harmful.

I agree with belief #5. concerning SMS.

#6: If use of a product by one person has a serious negative health impact on others who are not intending to use that product, then it is fair and reasonable for legislation to be enacted that protects the non user.

I somewhat agree but not entirely. We already have lots of different kinds of legislation concerning products with adverse effects on health that are considered fair and reasonable. For example, cars which burn gasoline must have catalytic converters and other technology to limit emissions. In the case of cigarette smoke it is not allowed in the workplace for much the same reasons that other dangerous substances are not allowed. No exception is made for bar staff as all employees are covered by OSHA regulations on quality of indoor air.
Also, the term "non user" is not clear. Do you mean 100% non user or if you mean some one not using the substance at the moment?

This exchange is largely resolved by the content at the beginning of this post.

#7. If STS is not proved to be harmful (i.e. smokers are still harming themselves through Primary Tobacco Smote - PTS, but are merely inconveniencing non smokers by subjecting them to an atmosphere they find unpleasant), then legislation would be as unconstitutional as, say, legislation that tries to ban meat being on the menu in restaurants that may be patronized by vegetarians.

No. It is not unconstitutional nor is it wrong to expect people to conform to certain behaviors in order to keep the peace and to make public places as well as private places safe and enjoyable for all. If a grumpy smoker bitches that he can't light up, too bad for him, he is out numbered. He'll have to use one of the other,another non invasive ways to feed his habit.
Your analogy to meat on menu is ludicrous.

Your final positions on points 6 and 8 are indicated at the start of this post so, in essence, we agree pretty much completely on all points with the exception of point 7, where (as I guess we both expected) we disagree significantly.

The last question I suppose is why do we disagree about point 7? My last belief will hopefully make the reasons for my skepticism on the dangers of STS clear, and we can then discuss the relative merits of each of our positions.


9. The EPA, WHO, and many other organizations and individuals who have published data showing a link between STS and chronic conditions have knowingly manipulated data and ignored statistical best practice in order to arrive at a seemingly predetermined result. In view of this, and the fact that so much legislation is based on conclusions reached by such organizations, it is reasonable to feel that a full and honest debate has not taken place, the science is unproven, and the legislation is therefore unconstitutional.


There you have it. Fire away.

 

[KittenKoder]

Are you going to call it Montezuma's ?

No, I was thinking "Fuck You, This Is A Smoking Establishment You Pink Lunger Bastards, Love The Shogun"


Do you think you would have enough info to make a wise personal choice with a name like that?

Depends. Will you have a paved parking lot? Will you be serving cheddar cheese pizza? Can I bring my squirrel?

Speaking of which,

Why I use to never eat out at all: No one would allow me to bring my cat with me. Now I don't have one. *pout*

 

[Anguille]

There you have it. Fire away.

Let me run that by my lawyers.

Later, Angie

 

[Shogun]

Are you going to call it Montezuma's ?

No, I was thinking "Fuck You, This Is A Smoking Establishment You Pink Lunger Bastards, Love The Shogun"


Do you think you would have enough info to make a wise personal choice with a name like that?

Depends. Will you have a paved parking lot? Will you be serving cheddar cheese pizza? Can I bring my squirrel?

I still don't see what you wouldn't like about a Cheddar and Brocolli pizza. that shit is, in the parlance of our times, THE BOMB.


I would have some uncomfortable steel benches outside for non smokers though! You'll enjoy that in the winter!

 

[Anguille]

Speaking of which,

Why I use to never eat out at all: No one would allow me to bring my cat with me. Now I don't have one. *pout*

Maybe you can get a certified companion animal cat? Those cannot be denied entrance to public areas.
My favorite crêperie in Paris had a house cat and a house poodle. It was all perfectly legal and nice too.

 

[Andrew2382]

Cheddar and Brocolli huh?

Any sauce? or a white pie?

 

[tigerbob]

[YOUTUBE]uKcibsUqN2A[/YOUTUBE]

BTW Ang, I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way, as demonstrated by the video KK posted.

Thanks KK - I hadn't seen this before and the timing is perfect.

 

[jgbkab]

You know, as much as I hate people telling other people what to do in the personal lives, there is an aspect to this where I would have to side (somewhat) with law. I lived in an apartment once where I had a person move in below me who smoked like a chimney. It made my apartment unbearable and no amount of talking with the person helped. I ended up having to move and had to fight with the landlord to get my deposit back. I do have a more pronounced reaction to smoke than most people so the circumstances aren't typical but unless the apartments aren't sealed I could see it creating problems for others.

I feel the same. Old buildings and even lots of new ones have problems with air circulation. Even with doors and windows closed it seeps out when they are opened. Fortunately more and more landlords have no smoking clauses in their leases. Cleaning up after smokers move out is a pain in the ass! Not to mention you can't really get the smell out till a long time has past. People don't want to rent someone else's old ashtray.

I was an apartment manager at one time and all you have to do is basically paint and clean the carpet to get the smoke smell out. It's really not much different because we did that when any tenent moved out. I guess if you don't do that, then it would be a pain. Our most common problems were families with small kids that usually left stains on the carpets. So maybe we should have had a no kid clause in our leases.

 

[Anguille]

No, I was thinking "Fuck You, This Is A Smoking Establishment You Pink Lunger Bastards, Love The Shogun"


Do you think you would have enough info to make a wise personal choice with a name like that?

Depends. Will you have a paved parking lot? Will you be serving cheddar cheese pizza? Can I bring my squirrel?

I still don't see what you wouldn't like about a Cheddar and Brocolli pizza. that shit is, in the parlance of our times, THE BOMB.


I would have some uncomfortable steel benches outside for non smokers though! You'll enjoy that in the winter!

But you'd be sad if I was out there where I'd miss all your live rants and culinary delights. Me and my possum posse would come in and use the fire extinguisher. You'd thank me later.

 

[Shogun]

Depends. Will you have a paved parking lot? Will you be serving cheddar cheese pizza? Can I bring my squirrel?

I still don't see what you wouldn't like about a Cheddar and Brocolli pizza. that shit is, in the parlance of our times, THE BOMB.


I would have some uncomfortable steel benches outside for non smokers though! You'll enjoy that in the winter!

But you'd be sad if I was out there where I'd miss all your live rants and culinary delights. Me and my possum posse would come in and use the fire extinguisher. You'd thank me later.

I'd probably light up another, pour a single shot, and get over it. Of course you would be welcome to come in.... if, of course, you understand that you would be choosing to expose yourself to second hand smoke.

 

[tigerbob]

There you have it. Fire away.

Let me run that by my lawyers.

Later, Angie

BTW, it's interesting (as I may have said before) that the Global Warming Argument is based on unproven science propounded by those with a vested interest in seeing it accepted - and everyone blithely accepts it!

The STS argument is similarly flawed from a science perspective yet every time anyone says so people reject it because they "must be in the pocket of big tobacco". Nobody says a word about others who are funded by the Pharmaceutical Companies (i.e. companies who make a fortune on NRT products), or whose research grants would disappear if the science was shown to be potentially flawed.

This seems like a curious double standard.

Or is it just that people tend not to raise their voices in objection about things that are politically correct (like STS or climate science)...

 

[KittenKoder]

Speaking of which,

Why I use to never eat out at all: No one would allow me to bring my cat with me. Now I don't have one. *pout*

Maybe you can get a certified companion animal cat? Those cannot be denied entrance to public areas.
My favorite crêperie in Paris had a house cat and a house poodle. It was all perfectly legal and nice too.

Been thinking about that for some time. My apartment won't allow pets either so it would be the only way I could ever get a kitty now. I miss my cats, all of them. My new doctor (something she did do right) is upset because I don't "hang out with people" and may actually force me to get a companion animal because of it. I just can't stand people in person ... really. They keep asking me too many questions as if somehow I am some guru or something and it annoys me to no end. So I seclude.

 

[KittenKoder]

BTW Ang, I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way, as demonstrated by the video KK posted.

Thanks KK - I hadn't seen this before and the timing is perfect.

You're welcome. I am a big fan of P&T because they try to take a subjective view and give everyone equal chance to plead their case, but also because they make it fun to watch. Anything they say in this matter I do agree with (there is a lot more than just that small bit). The beginning shows how EVERYTHING offends SOMEONE and that in order to please EVERYONE we'd all have to walk around in basically no clothing, eat nothing, and say nothing. The argument I have the hardest time with is the "it offends me and I shouldn't be offended" one used in the bans the most.

 

[Ravi]

No, I'm giving you a break. You seem to be having a tough time.

Methinks the paranoia is starting to affect your posting.

 

[Anguille]

Been thinking about that for some time. My apartment won't allow pets either so it would be the only way I could ever get a kitty now. I miss my cats, all of them. My new doctor (something she did do right) is upset because I don't "hang out with people" and may actually force me to get a companion animal because of it. I just can't stand people in person ... really. They keep asking me too many questions as if somehow I am some guru or something and it annoys me to no end. So I seclude.

If you had to give up your cats to move to your new place, I really feel for you! I've never had to give up a pet yet but leases and laws make it really hard for renters with pets. Yet renters with human pets, (children) get lots of protections. I hope your doctor doesn't want to get you a companion human.

Solitude doesn't equal loneliness. People can be annoying, especially the ones who want to talk your ears off, so I sympathize with you. If you're happy on your own, all the power to you! If it's really a sign of something unhealthy, I hope your doctor does get you a certificate for a companion pet. In any case, it seems to me that no people around is better than annoying self absorbed people. Good friends don't grow on trees.

 

[Anguille]

I'd probably light up another, pour a single shot, and get over it. Of course you would be welcome to come in.... if, of course, you understand that you would be choosing to expose yourself to second hand smoke.

Smoking Gun, with only your favorite person, Rabid, at your bar waiting for the other members of the Black Lung Liberation Army to show up, you'd be begging me to come in and have something top shelf on you. If smoking was legal in your town, I'd be elsewhere gathering signatures but if it wasn't I'd bust your place wide open as undercover heath/OSHA inspector. Not before ordering a pizza to go and handing Rabid, your part-time bar wench, her pink (lung) slip.

Later, you'd thank me for shutting you down before the bank foreclosed on the smellyist, emptiest bar your side of the Mississippi.