Simple Point Missing in the Union threads

[Trajan]

Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. That leverage is a means to a fair wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. Any union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wages and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

so, whats the point?

 

[Oddball]

I KNOW! What I dick I am to think our Government should focus first on making sure we have smart, well-fed, healthy, well-rounded citizens and THEN go bomb people. Weird!

That's not their job, slapnutz.

They should be protecting the freedom of everyone, not transgressing one man's liberties in order to feather the nest of another.

Yeah, everyone in the US. Not everyone in the whole fucking world.

No argument here.

So, when are any of your lolberal heroes going to call for bringing the troops home from places where the wars have been over for more than 50 years?

 

[ConservaDerrps]

Hey, idiot TeaPublicans, here's why you should give a fuck about the day when union membership goes away altogether. Oh, I know, it's our patriotic duty to work for $2/hr. Dummies.

Hey dip shit, try proving they go hand in hand.

I doubt you have the brains to add the two let alone explain the correlation. Blowhards are like that.

Why do what the chart with two lines (I thought Conservatives would be okay just having to interpret two lines) already does? Idiot.

 

[Liability]

Your "thought process" (for lack of a more accurate term) is weird.

It is not the "purpose" of government to make sure we have smart people. It is also not the "purpose" of government to make sure people are well fed. Nor is it the "purpose" of government to make sure citizens are well-rounded.

Yes. That is true.

That "thought process" fails to capture what passes for "thinking" in your case? I'm pleased we agree.

For the last 30 years your party has definitely made sure our government is not interested in things like infrastructure development (which education is most definitely a cornerstone of).

False. When you have to lie outright to "make" a so-called "point," you have pretty much already proved that you have nothing of value to say.

And look what those 30 years has gotten us!

In ranking, U.S. students trail global leaders - USATODAY.com

You are one of the misguided lib lemmings who imagines that the Federal Government has a legitimate claim to responsibility for the education of the nation's youth. Proving once again that you libs react without the ability to think for yourselves.

I know that since Conservatives hate critical thinking and intellectualism, you may not care. But where do you think this country is headed if we end up being predominantly stupid and ignorant? You want to know why we're falling behind? Education. You want to fix America, fix education first. If you want to further fuck us over, keep giving money to the rich folks instead.

Wrong. You don't "know" any such thing. You mindlessly, ignorantly, stupidly and propagandistically SAY it. But it's false.

If you want to fix America, stop pretending that the GOVERNMENT is the font of goodness and light, you dopey sheep.

This doesn't even address your simplistic, bombastic, absurd rhetoric about bombing people.

How much bigger is the Defense budget than the DOE budget? That's my point, fuckstick. I know you don't care because at your age you've done learned all the shit you're gonna learn, Hoss. But some of us don't want our kids to grow up around the stupids. It's bad enough WE had to.

I don't want kids to grow up around stupid assholes like you, but I'm not inclined to shield them from your vapid bullshit. It's always better to expose them to your imbecile "thinking" and show them how wrong you always are. The Defense Budget SHOULD be larger than the Education budget, fuck wit. The FEDERAL Government should not be engaged in the matter of educating the nation's youth AT ALL. They suck at delivering fucking MAIL for Pete's sake. They could fuck up a wet dream. I don't want those assclowns (filled with moronic liberal sheep like you) anywhere NEAR our kids.

The purpose of the American Government is to serve those LIMITED purposes for which we crafted the Federal government and for which we permit the Federal government to exist. And to put it more succinctly to clear all of this up for you, it IS the purpose of government to attend to the things we need collectively to enable us to TAKE THE FUCK CARE OF OUR OWN NEEDS. A law-crafting branch? Check. An executive branch to put into effect those laws that meet the test of Constitutional LIMITATIONS? Check. A Judicial branch to help referee appropriate disputes? Check. A military to protect us from militant enemies? Check. Common roads to make commerce do-able? Check. Maybe a postal service? Check.

Look, I can tell that human evolution passed you up, but what you need to realize here is that you're on the losing side of history, mothafucka. This is how it works, Liberals push human progress to the point that real change is made, and then you Conservative twats spend 30 years chipping away at it. I get that's what makes you scared. And angry. But you will lose. You always do. Because natural human evolution dictates that we move away from the old and towards the new. Gay people aren't all pedophiles and criminals, pot isn't like Heroin, and you guys again, will lose.

That must be your intelligent "liberal" way of debating what was said. You suck at debate like your mind sucks at actual thinking. Your tragically inept efforts at ad hominem aside, you base the majority of your would-be argument on a lie. Liberals do not further progress. You assholes further the stifling of progress. It takes a conservative to allow our system to work and our system has been a beacon for the world. Not just cheap patriotic rhetoric. Fact.

Go peruse the Founding and Framing documents, you ass hat. When you find the parts that call upon the government to serve us as a nanny, hurry back. Until then, you have more pressing things to do with your time. Educating yourself is WAY the fuck up on the list. For it is a lock-certain guarantee that you have NO concept about the true "purpose" off OUR government.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, dickface. * * * *

I KNEW a completely brain dead fuck wit shit bubble like you would go there.

OUR government was formed to help US pursue life liberty and happiness, you non-comprehending asshole. They are not there to PROVIDE it to us, you dickless shit hole.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yeah. I always see union guys out there with guns telling people, "GET IN MY UNION OR I'LL KILL YOU."

Oh wait, that's Republicans. My bad.

Bullshit and childish response.
In many states forced union shops exist. In other words a worker MUST be a union member( closed shop) to apply. IN other instances the applicant must join the union as a condition of employment( union shop).
Both scenarios are forms of socialism and are un-American. To force a citizen to become a member of an organization so he can make a living is ludicrous. However, this is how union leadership assured themselves a guaranteed income for their business. Union bosses lobbied politicians to pass laws permitting this.

 

[Trajan]

Hey, idiot TeaPublicans, here's why you should give a fuck about the day when union membership goes away altogether. Oh, I know, it's our patriotic duty to work for $2/hr. Dummies.

think progress....uh huh, what is their case aside for the election coming up, for correlation?

 

[thereisnospoon]

The only ones in the Union making real Money is the union bosses and the minions under them are too stupid to know that. They use their tax dollars to pay off politicians and go on conference in mexico while the little guy is working their ass off. The bosses are also laughing their ass off because they get all this free money

Concrete worker makes 30 an hour. A elevator tech makes about 80 an hour. Both in unions. But hey why stop talking out of your ass?

You're full of shit.....Elevator Technician Salaries in New York City, NY | Simply Hired

But hey, why tell the truth when you can make up shit to hide behind your lack of rebuttal.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

Hey, idiot TeaPublicans, here's why you should give a fuck about the day when union membership goes away altogether. Oh, I know, it's our patriotic duty to work for $2/hr. Dummies.

think progress....uh huh, what is their case aside for the election coming up, for correlation?

Why does there have to be a case for correlation? Why can't the numbers simply be related to each other because they are? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that as organizations that were created specifically to protect the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class have been gutted and trivialized, the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class has suffered.

Seems kind of obvious. What other reason would employers have to treat their employees well, exactly, if they can just summarily fire the current work force and bring in a new work force much more cheaply? Sometimes a cigar's just a cigar.

 

[Oddball]

Hey, idiot TeaPublicans, here's why you should give a fuck about the day when union membership goes away altogether. Oh, I know, it's our patriotic duty to work for $2/hr. Dummies.

think progress....uh huh, what is their case aside for the election coming up, for correlation?

Why does there have to be a case for correlation? Why can't the numbers simply be related to each other because they are? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that as organizations that were created specifically to protect the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class have been gutted and trivialized, the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class has suffered.

Seems kind of obvious. What other reason would employers have to treat their employees well, exactly, if they can just summarily fire the current work force and bring in a new work force much more cheaply? Sometimes a cigar's just a cigar.

IOW, you have no real proof of correlation...Just the say-so of a far leftloon blog.

 

[Zander]

I have no objection to private sector Unions, Government sector Unions are the problem. They donate money to Democrat candidates in exchange for Democrats agreeing to ever increasing wages and benefits for government employees. Meanwhile the taxpayers are stuck with the bills. It's an unholy alliance- a mutual backscratching scam. But times "they are-a-changin" and the gig is up! Voters are onto the scam and even in liberal havens like California we are reversing the trend. Government sector unions should be illegal.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

That "thought process" fails to capture what passes for "thinking" in your case? I'm pleased we agree.

Huh?

False. When you have to lie outright to "make" a so-called "point," you have pretty much already proved that you have nothing of value to say.

What's false about it? Conservatives have undermined and belittled the importance of higher education because they are "Liberal Think Tanks" for decades now. When Liberals have wanted to raise taxes for education, we were told it should be the responsibility of the state and local municipalities...who don't have enough money to effectively teach our kids. It's not conjecture, it's historical record.

The teachers unions aren't blameless in this thing at all. But I'd be all for busting them up if it was part of an agreement to put enough Federal money into the system to guarantee class sizes under 28 and quality pay for quality teachers.

Would you support that?

You are one of the misguided lib lemmings who imagines that the Federal Government has a legitimate claim to responsibility for the education of the nation's youth. Proving once again that you libs react without the ability to think for yourselves.

Your last sentence is nothing but rhetoric, for reals. The Government does have a responsibility to educate its citizens. Otherwise, tell me AGAIN why public schools were created in the first place, you fucking idiot? A government that doesn't train and educate its people is a government doomed to fail. Without education you have no innovation. Without innovation you stagnate, and when you stagnate, you die.

Wrong. You don't "know" any such thing. You mindlessly, ignorantly, stupidly and propagandistically SAY it. But it's false.

Right back at ya, Big Guy.

If you want to fix America, stop pretending that the GOVERNMENT is the font of goodness and light, you dopey sheep.

If you want to fix America you have to stop being such a fucking hypocrite. You don't want big government? Okay, give up the military. Give up roads. Give up the post office. Give it all up. You can't have any of it. Because the government is so fucking evil it can't be trusted to do anything. So what's your solution?

I don't want kids to grow up around stupid assholes like you, but I'm not inclined to shield them from your vapid bullshit. It's always better to expose them to your imbecile "thinking" and show them how wrong you always are. The Defense Budget SHOULD be larger than the Education budget, fuck wit.

Sure, for a war-hawk fuckface for you that makes sense. But you need to wake up and see that the times are in fact changing, to borrow a line from Bob Zimmerman. And the days of amassing a giant stock pile of weapons at the expense of infrastructure need to end. Ironically, it's the fucking idiots like you who advocate having a massive industrial military complex in place to protect against the end of our nation that will likely bring about the end of our nation.

The FEDERAL Government should not be engaged in the matter of educating the nation's youth AT ALL. They suck at delivering fucking MAIL for Pete's sake.

You're an idiot. And it's people like you that will keep our citizens by and large the DUMBEST ones of the civilized world. I know, MURIKA DON'T NEED NO FAG SYENCE! Well fuck you, asshole. We do need it. We do need to be smart. Well, you clearly don't need to be, but as a society, we sure as hell better make it a priority, you fucking caveman.

And quit hacking on the post office. They don't suck at delivering letters, at all. Do you know how many pieces of mail get delivered on time or ahead of schedule for a fraction of the cost of the big carriers by the USPS? Of course you don't. Why would you actually look at something through unbiased lenses than just attack something because the government does it?

They could fuck up a wet dream. I don't want those assclowns (filled with moronic liberal sheep like you) anywhere NEAR our kids.

Rhetoric. Nothing more. Not worth a real response.

That must be your intelligent "liberal" way of debating what was said. You suck at debate like your mind sucks at actual thinking.

You suck at life like you suck at sentence structure.

Your tragically inept efforts at ad hominem aside, you base the majority of your would-be argument on a lie.

Your face is an ad hominem. For my balls.

Liberals do not further progress. You assholes further the stifling of progress. It takes a conservative to allow our system to work and our system has been a beacon for the world. Not just cheap patriotic rhetoric. Fact.

Ahahahahahahaha! Yes. Liberals don't champion progress at all. Except when they always do. Who started the space race again? What would you call the abolition movement? What would you call the women's suffrage movement? Hell, why do you think computers have become so ubiquitous and important? Because a bunch of NorCal hippies wanted to make their computer programs open-source and it created a competition to create the best technology, which wound up leading to a new industry.

Yeah, progressives don't push progress at all, do we? You fucking blind robot.

I KNEW a completely brain dead fuck wit shit bubble like you would go there.

OUR government was formed to help US pursue life liberty and happiness, you non-comprehending asshole. They are not there to PROVIDE it to us, you dickless shit hole.

Ahahahahaha. Caveman.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

think progress....uh huh, what is their case aside for the election coming up, for correlation?

Why does there have to be a case for correlation? Why can't the numbers simply be related to each other because they are? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that as organizations that were created specifically to protect the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class have been gutted and trivialized, the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class has suffered.

Seems kind of obvious. What other reason would employers have to treat their employees well, exactly, if they can just summarily fire the current work force and bring in a new work force much more cheaply? Sometimes a cigar's just a cigar.

IOW, you have no real proof of correlation...Just the say-so of a far leftloon blog.

Hmm. That's like, your opinion man.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Concrete worker makes 30 an hour. A elevator tech makes about 80 an hour. Both in unions. But hey why stop talking out of your ass?

My husband makes 30.00 an hour and everything over 36 hours is overtime . He works at least 2 extra days in a payday of overtime ( Over the 36 hours) and can work more if he wants to but wants to spend some time with family He has great benefits as well and a lot of vacation time. We dont need some middle man to take our money he works on his own merit and does quite well. .. Plus he gets his E8 retirement from the navy . ALL non union.. We are living quite well without any union help

Your situation has nothing to do with Unions and why they are needed. Thats great but you have to realize that workers protection cannot be a bad thing. Maybe their are bad bosses in the Union but theres bad bosses everywhere. Unions arent the only ones but they are the only bosses attacked by Repubs

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. You claim unions are needed.
She claimed that her husband make a very good living with many good benefits and no need for a union.
In fact, there are tons of examples where companies will pay at or above union scale just to keep unions out.
BMW in Greer, SC is one example. Toyota in San Antonio TX is another.
Now Boeing is building 787 Dreamliners in Charleston, SC. No union. High wages and great benefits. Of course when the plant was announced, the Machinists Union ran to Washington with their panties in a wad and even got the Obama admin to sue Boeing to stop the plant. The claim was Boeing was "punishing" the Machinists Union for their frequent job actions against the Company. Well that may have been part of the reason, but at the end of the day, it's none of the government's fucking business where a company locates. BTW, the Obama admin LOST this fight. HA HA HA.
This is the first Presidential Admin that has been known for running around suing states and other entities for not marching in lockstep with the President's agenda.
This is the kind of garbage that make most people dislike unions.

 

[Darkwind]

I'd rather be a Statist than a sadist who enjoys how unfair life is and wallows in the idea that people could starve instead of eating, could go homeless instead of getting welfare, and could die instead of getting health care.

If given a choice between being an asshole, or a person with compassion and heart, I choose compassion and heart.

Have a clue. Your idea of having compassion and a heart is not the correct one. It may work for you, because you are afraid of a world where mommy's apron string is cut off, but for the rest of us, compassion and having a heart is teaching people how to stand on their own, provide for themselves and their kids, and do so with their head held high.

Instead of their hat in one hand, their other extended for the crumbs and arrogant compassion of a government that could care less.

 

[freedombecki]

I have no objection to private sector Unions, Government sector Unions are the problem. They donate money to Democrat candidates in exchange for Democrats agreeing to ever increasing wages and benefits for government employees. Meanwhile the taxpayers are stuck with the bills. It's an unholy alliance- a mutual backscratching scam. But times "they are-a-changin" and the gig is up! Voters are onto the scam and even in liberal havens like California we are reversing the trend. Government sector unions should be illegal.

I was against unionizing government agencies when I heard about it. It's wrong to make one group wealthy and well treated at the expense of those who work hard for a living but never make much. Strapping other people with taxes so government workers can live high off the hog leaves everyone else paying. I went into a government office last year and I got to wait for 7 hours in a lot of pain for the privilege of getting help to pay taxes after my husband got dementia and could no longer remember what to do. I was put at the back of the line all day long while they waited on people who'd been there less than an hour.

You give crappy service like that in the private sector, and you are either out on your ear or you lose every customer you inconvenience in that way.

Government jobs should be good. But they shouldn't be causes for creating overlords who party and break all day long while a waiting public watches their tax money get spent for egregious service in return.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

I'd rather be a Statist than a sadist who enjoys how unfair life is and wallows in the idea that people could starve instead of eating, could go homeless instead of getting welfare, and could die instead of getting health care.

If given a choice between being an asshole, or a person with compassion and heart, I choose compassion and heart.

Have a clue. Your idea of having compassion and a heart is not the correct one. It may work for you, because you are afraid of a world where mommy's apron string is cut off, but for the rest of us, compassion and having a heart is teaching people how to stand on their own, provide for themselves and their kids, and do so with their head held high.

Instead of their hat in one hand, their other extended for the crumbs and arrogant compassion of a government that could care less.

Bitch, I'm not afraid of shit. I work. I have an income, I work hard, damn hard. I'm just not a heartless, soulless creep.

If you're down with being a piece of shit that wants people to die instead of getting government backed health care, that's cool, bro. Own it, dog. Tell your pious ideas of how to live your life to the single mom with a deadbeat dad who has to work an 11 dollar an hour job that she should just "work harder" and not get food stamps and assistance.

Creep.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I had a friend who knew somebody once who picked up a girl at a bar, and then he woke up the next morning in a bathtub full of ice with one of his kidney's removed.

So other than this dubious urban legend, what do you really have. Frankly, taking 5 hours to fix a gearbox in a crane sounds like a pretty quick turnaround job.

Are you for real?...All those workers got paid for DOING NOTHING, costing the business thousands of dollars. And for what? To make sure some union apprentice can keep his job? Fuck that. I would have told the electrician, "look if you can't get here in 20 mins, we'll change the bulb ourselves and your idiot bosses can take us to court. We have work to do."
And this is why unions are weakening every year.
Why you keep cheerleading for unions is a mystery. It's like thinking a burning house fire can be extinguished with a garden hose. Unions are a lost cause.

 

[Darkwind]

I'd rather be a Statist than a sadist who enjoys how unfair life is and wallows in the idea that people could starve instead of eating, could go homeless instead of getting welfare, and could die instead of getting health care.

If given a choice between being an asshole, or a person with compassion and heart, I choose compassion and heart.

Have a clue. Your idea of having compassion and a heart is not the correct one. It may work for you, because you are afraid of a world where mommy's apron string is cut off, but for the rest of us, compassion and having a heart is teaching people how to stand on their own, provide for themselves and their kids, and do so with their head held high.

Instead of their hat in one hand, their other extended for the crumbs and arrogant compassion of a government that could care less.

Bitch, I'm not afraid of shit. I work. I have an income, I work hard, damn hard. I'm just not a heartless, soulless creep.

If you're down with being a piece of shit that wants people to die instead of getting government backed health care, that's cool, bro. Own it, dog. Tell your pious ideas of how to live your life to the single mom with a deadbeat dad who has to work an 11 dollar an hour job that she should just "work harder" and not get food stamps and assistance.

Creep.

If you advocate for government to help people, you are beyond a heartless, soulless creep....Your a sadist with a mean streak in you.

I'm down with people caring for themselves, by working to further their own lot in life. This leads to things like a better life, a job that pays for the necessity in life and maybe a little more. I'm down with people who want more, being willing to work that full time job, and go to school full time and improve their skills and ability, which leads to better jobs, and maybe a wife and children, and money to invest for retirement and college for their kids.

I am not down with worthless excuses for people who want to whine, and bitch and complain, "Oh woe is Me, My dad beat me, My mom is a crack whore, and so I just don't try and give up on school and looking to make My life better.

You want compassion? Then help them to better themselves, not give them enslavement to a heartless government.

Life requires participation.

If you don't want to participate or try, why should I give a fuck about you, if you don't give a fuck about yourself.

 

[Darkwind]

Grow up people. Life doesn't owe you anything and life is not fair. You get from it what you put into it.

People need to relearn that simple little truth.

 

[Trajan]

Hey, idiot TeaPublicans, here's why you should give a fuck about the day when union membership goes away altogether. Oh, I know, it's our patriotic duty to work for $2/hr. Dummies.

think progress....uh huh, what is their case aside for the election coming up, for correlation?

Why does there have to be a case for correlation?

seriously?

Why can't the numbers simply be related to each other because they are? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that as organizations that were created specifically to protect the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class have been gutted and trivialized, the wages, benefits and treatment of the working class has suffered.

so now you are making a case of/for correlation but are failing...abysmally...

Seems kind of obvious. What other reason would employers have to treat their employees well, exactly, if they can just summarily fire the current work force and bring in a new work force much more cheaply? Sometimes a cigar's just a cigar.

its obvious to those that seek simpleton solutions . forgiving themselves the work of thinking ....see my signature...