Should we Erase Columbus or others from the History Books?

[justoffal]

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

It's fun to watch white people act like they are being put upon when they are asked to do something decent.

Okay, let's put this in a more modern perspective. The world just found out Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Actually, we all kind of knew it for decades, but we ignored it because people enjoyed his music so much. But now we can't really deny it anymore. It really doesn't change one note of one of his songs, but it puts them in a whole new context. So yes, radio station and streaming services are pulling his music.

"but, but, Thriller was the greatest album of all time".. Maybe, but doesn't take away from the horrible human cost, does it.

Now, what Columbus did resulting in tens of millions of deaths, the start of the trans-Atlantic slave trade (because those Native Americans were dying off faster than the Europeans could exploit them, so let's bring in some black folks.). Lots of horrible things happened, but if you are a European-American, you benefited greatly. My father had a much nicer life here in America than he would have had in that crappy little town in Germany where he came from.

At a certain point, we need to stop and realize that this all had a horrible human cost. And while we should concentrate on righting wrongs in the here and now, taking down the statues of Columbus or Robert E. Lee would also be a good place to make amends.

That's just silly. Music is music and bad people are bad people. Michael Jackson is dead ... His Music lives on and it does not Molest Children. Now you really are stepping over into the realms of the thought police and the mentally vacant guilt by association crowd. You save no one, fix nothing and gain no moral improvement by trying to punish either his Music or anyone who decides to listen to it. What you do accomplish however is a false s sense of worth that can't
be bartered for a single cup of coffee.

Jo

 

[skookerasbil]

Hope it happens....ratchets up the level of division even more.....ftw.

 

[Polishprince]

Another handful of years and Columbus Day will be completely gone, but that's ok.
What's important, is European came to this hemisphere and put in motion what would come to be the greatest technological progress in human history.

It doesn't matter whether Columbus was first, or not even close. We simply use him as a figurehead for the beginning of the most glorious time in human history.

I'm sure some agreement could be made the libs can erase Columbus Day, and we can erase MLK Day

The purpose of Columbus Day is to celebrate Italian Americans and all they have done for American culture. If the holiday were abolished, how would be honor this great, hard working Americans, of whom Christopher Columbus was the first Italian immigrant. BTW, Columbus is said to have arrived in America "With Out Papers", starting the common slang for the Italian people.

 

[blastoff]

So Columbus, like most of the early world explorers was an exploitationist and at times inhumanely cruel. What are the real ethics we are reaching for here? We already knew most of this. Centuries later the celebration of Columbus Day has about as much to do with Christopher Columbus as a cigar store elephant statue has to do with a Wooley mammoth.

Fact is these things actually happened. Not giving them "press" so to speak isn't going to change that fact.

The idea of the Western Hemisphere being located by European culture...the predominant world culture of the time is a pretty big deal.

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

Jo

I for one think we learn from our history so hiding or changing the facts seems kinda stupid to me.

 

[Aletheia4u]

So Columbus, like most of the early world explorers was an exploitationist and at times inhumanely cruel. What are the real ethics we are reaching for here? We already knew most of this. Centuries later the celebration of Columbus Day has about as much to do with Christopher Columbus as a cigar store elephant statue has to do with a Wooley mammoth.

Fact is these things actually happened. Not giving them "press" so to speak isn't going to change that fact.

The idea of the Western Hemisphere being located by European culture...the predominant world culture of the time is a pretty big deal.

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

Jo

Yea, I believe we should. George Berkeley rubbed out the natives' culture. And so we should rub out his name all over that Liberal town. And rename it Fire-water spring.


At first glance, Berkeley -- an anti-imperialist city if there ever was one -- seems to have egg on its political face.

The city that replaced Columbus Day with "Indigenous Peoples Day" is commemorating its largely forgotten namesake, the 18th century Irish-born philosopher, Bishop George Berkeley, whose name was glued to the city because of a line of poetry he wrote extolling the spread of empire:
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Gasp-Berkeley-will-celebrate-its-namesake-City-2659408.php

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Here is the next step already being taken

‘American Political Thought’ course at CU Denver removes all white men from curriculum - The College Fix

Not even an American president.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

None of this contradicts or changes what my citation said. Look at the trading routes of the Vikings and the many cultures they came into contact with.
Could a "hack first" and ask questions later people have established all those ties and business partners if they were
relentlessly and primarily savage people?

I don't discount their violent reputation which they earned when they raided the British Isles, for instance.
But they were not only that and to survive and colonize in the New World, they had to have been more. There is no evidence they were at war with any indigenous peoples.

Alfred the Great would have disagreed with you, joined by Irish monks.

The Vikings would try to bargain with you first, to their own advantage, then come back and kill you and take what they wanted anyway if you wouldnt agree to their offer.

One of the most vile and murderous cultures to ever hit the planet, the ancestors of British nobility.

I already conceded the Vikings in their raids on the British Isles were ruthless and savage right in the very post you yourself quote. So where is the issue?

The difference here is I have no problem acknowledging that side of the Vikings (as plunderers and looters) but you seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge the other side of Viking culture as merchants, traders, explorers and settlers
as I cited several pages ago.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Elizabeth Warren wants to abolish Columbus Day.
She is pandering to the racist anti-Anglo Troglocrats who want open borders.

What is the process of abolishing it in her tribe ?
Does she run it by the chief and medicine man, for approval ?

Squaw Deal

Lizzie can get her girltoy, A O-Cí, Se Puede, to do a salsa dance and Columbus Day will go POOF!

Then send out smoke signals to let the other members of the tribe know about the change ?

How

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

None of this contradicts or changes what my citation said. Look at the trading routes of the Vikings and the many cultures they came into contact with.
Could a "hack first" and ask questions later people have established all those ties and business partners if they were
relentlessly and primarily savage people?

I don't discount their violent reputation which they earned when they raided the British Isles, for instance.
But they were not only that and to survive and colonize in the New World, they had to have been more. There is no evidence they were at war with any indigenous peoples.

Alfred the Great would have disagreed with you, joined by Irish monks.

The Vikings would try to bargain with you first, to their own advantage, then come back and kill you and take what they wanted anyway if you wouldnt agree to their offer.

One of the most vile and murderous cultures to ever hit the planet, the ancestors of British nobility.

I already conceded the Vikings in their raids on the British Isles were ruthless and savage right in the very post you yourself quote. So where is the issue?

The difference here is I have no problem acknowledging that side of the Vikings (as plunderers and looters) but you seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge the other side of Viking culture as merchants, traders, explorers and settlers
as I cited several pages ago.

Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword

The Vikings didn't change until the violent ones got killed off. Why would the Normans learn French if they were just going to loot and leave, like their forefathers did?

 

[justoffal]

Another handful of years and Columbus Day will be completely gone, but that's ok.
What's important, is European came to this hemisphere and put in motion what would come to be the greatest technological progress in human history.

It doesn't matter whether Columbus was first, or not even close. We simply use him as a figurehead for the beginning of the most glorious time in human history.

I'm sure some agreement could be made the libs can erase Columbus Day, and we can erase MLK Day

Lol.... You just nailed it.

Jo

 

[DigitalDrifter]

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

It's fun to watch white people act like they are being put upon when they are asked to do something decent.

Okay, let's put this in a more modern perspective. The world just found out Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Actually, we all kind of knew it for decades, but we ignored it because people enjoyed his music so much. But now we can't really deny it anymore. It really doesn't change one note of one of his songs, but it puts them in a whole new context. So yes, radio station and streaming services are pulling his music.

"but, but, Thriller was the greatest album of all time".. Maybe, but doesn't take away from the horrible human cost, does it.

Now, what Columbus did resulting in tens of millions of deaths, the start of the trans-Atlantic slave trade (because those Native Americans were dying off faster than the Europeans could exploit them, so let's bring in some black folks.). Lots of horrible things happened, but if you are a European-American, you benefited greatly. My father had a much nicer life here in America than he would have had in that crappy little town in Germany where he came from.

At a certain point, we need to stop and realize that this all had a horrible human cost. And while we should concentrate on righting wrongs in the here and now, taking down the statues of Columbus or Robert E. Lee would also be a good place to make amends.

I've got a better way for you to make amends. Make yourself a sacrifice, kill yourself. That will be one less white male that minorities, especially the indigenous ones, will have to deal with.

 

[LoneLaugher]

So Columbus, like most of the early world explorers was an exploitationist and at times inhumanely cruel. What are the real ethics we are reaching for here? We already knew most of this. Centuries later the celebration of Columbus Day has about as much to do with Christopher Columbus as a cigar store elephant statue has to do with a Wooley mammoth.

Fact is these things actually happened. Not giving them "press" so to speak isn't going to change that fact.

The idea of the Western Hemisphere being located by European culture...the predominant world culture of the time is a pretty big deal.

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

Jo

Moron. Nobody wants to remove him from the history books. Same with your beloved traitorous generals. Normal people just
don't want murderers and traitors to be held up as heroes.

You claim to want the whole story told.....yet you still want a fucking holiday named after the inhumane asshole. Does not compute.

 

[boedicca]

No. Just plain no.

Burning history doesn't end well.

 

[Indeependent]

So Columbus, like most of the early world explorers was an exploitationist and at times inhumanely cruel. What are the real ethics we are reaching for here? We already knew most of this. Centuries later the celebration of Columbus Day has about as much to do with Christopher Columbus as a cigar store elephant statue has to do with a Wooley mammoth.

Fact is these things actually happened. Not giving them "press" so to speak isn't going to change that fact.

The idea of the Western Hemisphere being located by European culture...the predominant world culture of the time is a pretty big deal.

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

Jo

The very same Liberals who love cheap, abused Chinese labor hate Columbus.

 

[Indeependent]

So Columbus, like most of the early world explorers was an exploitationist and at times inhumanely cruel. What are the real ethics we are reaching for here? We already knew most of this. Centuries later the celebration of Columbus Day has about as much to do with Christopher Columbus as a cigar store elephant statue has to do with a Wooley mammoth.

Fact is these things actually happened. Not giving them "press" so to speak isn't going to change that fact.

The idea of the Western Hemisphere being located by European culture...the predominant world culture of the time is a pretty big deal.

Really it's irrelevant who Columbus was
Cad, slaver, exploiter.... It's more important to know what role he played in the process of connecting the two hemispheres. As for Columbus Day why bother to change the name? How does that contribute to the factuality or non factuality of its history? Should all of Latin America now reject the Spanish language as racist and abusive?

I'm all for teaching kids the whole story
But I resist the Idea that removing Columbus's name from the day somehow improves us morally. It is quite impossible for us to reach back and correct the wrongs of History...even pretending that we can is foolish.

Jo

Moron. Nobody wants to remove him from the history books. Same with your beloved traitorous generals. Normal people just
don't want murderers and traitors to be held up as heroes.

You claim to want the whole story told.....yet you still want a fucking holiday named after the inhumane asshole. Does not compute.

You are free to live in a teepee.

 

[Yarddog]

We should erase anything that triggers a snowflake, may cause a hypersensitive neurotic to require a "safe space", or that may be considered a "micro aggression".
.

Yeah...um....what the hell is a micro aggression anyway?

It's the tiniest little thing that sets liberals off to the point they need to tell society as a whole to stop and change everything they are doing.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I'm sure some agreement could be made the libs can erase Columbus Day, and we can erase MLK Day

How is that a trade?

These are the current federal holidays:

• New Year's Day (January 1).
• Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. (Third Monday in January).
• Washington's Birthday (Third Monday in February).
• Memorial Day (Last Monday in May).
• Independence Day (July 4).
• Labor Day (First Monday in September).
• Columbus Day (Second Monday in October).
• Veterans Day (November 11).
• Thanksgiving Day (Fourth Thursday in November).
• Christmas Day (December 25).

It is a pretty crowded schedule of ten holidays. Were it up to me, I would do three things:
a) add a secondary title to MLK's birthday as 'Civil Rights Day' and
b) Secondary title to Columbus Day that being 'Science Day'
c) and move Veterans Day to election Day, with election Day being the secondary title/purpose.

It is a pretty crowded schedule of ten holidays
and i used to get every one off with pay.....loved those holidays.....

 

[Darkwind]

Another handful of years and Columbus Day will be completely gone, but that's ok.
What's important, is European came to this hemisphere and put in motion what would come to be the greatest technological progress in human history.

It doesn't matter whether Columbus was first, or not even close. We simply use him as a figurehead for the beginning of the most glorious time in human history.

About Erickson...anyone familiar at all with Viking exploration knows that they chopped first and asked questions later. It's a pretty fair bet that Erickson killed any indigenous bodies he came in contact with.

Jo

Thats a very narrow view. The Vikings were a lot more than that.

In fact, like the Saxons, the Vikings are classified as barbarians. They had a culture, somewhat savage by comparison with the standard of Rome, but they were a conquering group of people. They lived to expand, conquer, subjugate, and appropriate lands and people.

The Vikings that were first in N. America were just as savage to indigenous people as they were of the English of medieval Brittania.

Columbus, by comparison, was downright civilized.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Another handful of years and Columbus Day will be completely gone, but that's ok.
What's important, is European came to this hemisphere and put in motion what would come to be the greatest technological progress in human history.

It doesn't matter whether Columbus was first, or not even close. We simply use him as a figurehead for the beginning of the most glorious time in human history.

I'm sure some agreement could be made the libs can erase Columbus Day, and we can erase MLK Day

The purpose of Columbus Day is to celebrate Italian Americans and all they have done for American culture. If the holiday were abolished, how would be honor this great, hard working Americans, of whom Christopher Columbus was the first Italian immigrant. BTW, Columbus is said to have arrived in America "With Out Papers", starting the common slang for the Italian people.

thats not were WOP began.....wasnt used until 1908.....it is from the Italian word "guappo".....roughly translate to "dude".... many Italian men called each other that back then and it changed into a slur against Italians by those damned white people of the day....

 

[justoffal]

We should erase anything that triggers a snowflake, may cause a hypersensitive neurotic to require a "safe space", or that may be considered a "micro aggression".
.

Yeah...um....what the hell is a micro aggression anyway?

It's the tiniest little thing that sets liberals off to the point they need to tell society as a whole to stop and change everything they are doing.

The quest to erase all things from the past that would not pass muster in today's politically correct climate is insanity. It cannot be done nor is it necessary to do it. All sentient beings have transgressed the code of propriety in one way or another at one time or another due simply to human imperfection. Should we continue to follow this path of so called moral cleansing nothing would be left of anything. It's not intelligent at all.

JO