Shekels

[Billy_Kinetta]

Actually there is a written account of how great an expanse of land the Jews originally owned. You probably have a copy of the book it was written in somewhere in your house, maybe in a closet or a bookshelf. If you don't, you could probably find it in a public library or something.

Unfortunately, that book doesn't have any pictures in it, because they didn't have cameras back then. So I'll post this one...

Biblical Boundaries of the Land of Israel - The Israel Bible

Land rights are not determined by ancient religious

A Japanese guy came up with this:

A Japanese View of the Palestinians

"If you are so sure that " Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history," I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :

1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What constituted the basis of its economy?
6. What was its form of government?
7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the country of Palestine ?
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?
11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?"

So? A people is not determined by nationhood, a founding or a currency.

It is just an attempt to deny a people their rights to exist. Ironic given those same deniers fight tooth and nail against those who deny the Jews there rights to exhist.

So what makes the Palestinians "a people"? Before Israel was established by the Jews in modern times, they were just people living in a certain area, so what makes them "a people" now?

Sel identification, common culture, every people starts somewhere. Is there a magical date that determines when a peop,e becomes a peop,e?

A distinct common culture would be necessary to identify them as a distinct people, and in terms of culture, they are just generic Arabs, not at all distinct from other Arabs in the region. As for self identification, that only occurred in the middle of the last century, well after the state of Israel was created. They have rights as people, but there is no rational basis in fact or logic for inventing them as "a people".

There is no magical timeline after which they are not allowed to become a people.

What makes any people unique?

The Palestinians have a shared heritage, customs and culture.

And that is?

 

[Pogo]

Just saw Jeopardy, where they referenced Israeli currency--shekels. It's the same currency they had 2000 years ago. And Hebrew is the same language they spoke in that land 2000 years ago. They also celebrate the same national holidays that Jesus observed 2000 years ago (like Passover and Hanukkah). Can the so-called Palestinians make the same claim? No, which is why they try to destroy every archeological artifact on the Temple Mount.

There's no such people as the "Palestinians." They came from Jordan and other countries.

Perfect example of how to disenfranchise a people. Claim they don’t exist even if they have been there thousands of years.

One cannot disenfranchise that which has never been enfranchised.

Sure. You just start out claiming they don’t exist. They aren’t a real people. They did it to the Jews. You do it now to the Palestinians.

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

You mean like the "Cherokee"?

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

There's no such people as the "Palestinians." They came from Jordan and other countries.

Perfect example of how to disenfranchise a people. Claim they don’t exist even if they have been there thousands of years.

One cannot disenfranchise that which has never been enfranchised.

Sure. You just start out claiming they don’t exist. They aren’t a real people. They did it to the Jews. You do it now to the Palestinians.

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

You mean like the "Cherokee"?

Such is the March of Time.

 

[Shusha]

That (the Beowulf bit) would be "Old English" and the Chaucer bit would be "Middle English".
The point is the further back you go, the less mutually intelligible they are.

Sure. And we could refer to Modern Hebrew, Torah Hebrew or Rabbinical Hebrew. One of the reasons that Hebrew as a living, evolving language was able to be revived, though, was the consistency and continued use of the language over thousands of years. My understanding (and I am no where near a competent Hebrew speaker) is that many (most?) nouns and verbs remain near identical. There were changes in syntax (SVO as opposed to VSO), borrowed terms from other languages and the incorporation of 90,000 new words for modern ideas which didn't exist 3000 years ago, incorporation of vowel markings and punctuation. But the language is recognizably the same.

Maybe rylah or Lipush will come along and enlighten us further.

 

[Pogo]

Perfect example of how to disenfranchise a people. Claim they don’t exist even if they have been there thousands of years.

One cannot disenfranchise that which has never been enfranchised.

Sure. You just start out claiming they don’t exist. They aren’t a real people. They did it to the Jews. You do it now to the Palestinians.

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

You mean like the "Cherokee"?

Such is the March of Time.

Like Sands Through the Hourglass.

 

[Shusha]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

 

[Pogo]

That (the Beowulf bit) would be "Old English" and the Chaucer bit would be "Middle English".
The point is the further back you go, the less mutually intelligible they are.

Sure. And we could refer to Modern Hebrew, Torah Hebrew or Rabbinical Hebrew. One of the reasons that Hebrew as a living, evolving language was able to be revived, though, was the consistency and continued use of the language over thousands of years. My understanding (and I am no where near a competent Hebrew speaker) is that many (most?) nouns and verbs remain near identical. There were changes in syntax (SVO as opposed to VSO), borrowed terms from other languages and the incorporation of 90,000 new words for modern ideas which didn't exist 3000 years ago, incorporation of vowel markings and punctuation. But the language is recognizably the same.

Maybe rylah or Lipush will come along and enlighten us further.

Most of those points were in the second video I posted (which is in Hebrew). But I very much doubt 90,000 words. English has somewhere around 50,000 and we have considerably more than most.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I think one can make a case for the Arab Palestinians developing a distinct nationality in the past 70 years or so.

How so? If we ignore national boundaries, how are they distinct from the Arabs around them?

They are not. Except *possibly* in their national aspirations. The only way to argue it would be self-identification. If they self-identify as distinct from say, Jordan, and were able to develop a national character around that self-identification, then, yeah, I'd say you can make a case for it.

That said, have they? How would you measure if they have or have not?

lol How can you self identify as a member or a group that doesn't otherwise exist? The whole purpose of trying to claim they are a people is to then assert that as a people they deserve a state of their own, which is absurd since groups that are clearly distinct as a people, such as the Kurds, have no state of their own. If Israel were not Jewish, there would be no false claims the so called Palestinians are a people. Certainly the Arab states did not believe it in 1948.

Of course, none of this really matters in terms of what will happen in the region. Whether you recognize the so called Palestinians as a people or not, they are nearly all hostile to the existence of the state of Israel, and therefore cannot ever become part of Israel, and since there is no political entity among them that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there can never be a negotiated peace settlement, and that means Israel's security requires that Israel maintain security control over all of Judea and Samaria for the foreseeable future, and the so called Palestinians will have to remain stateless. A disquieting situation for which there is no solution.

 

[Shusha]

That (the Beowulf bit) would be "Old English" and the Chaucer bit would be "Middle English".
The point is the further back you go, the less mutually intelligible they are.

Sure. And we could refer to Modern Hebrew, Torah Hebrew or Rabbinical Hebrew. One of the reasons that Hebrew as a living, evolving language was able to be revived, though, was the consistency and continued use of the language over thousands of years. My understanding (and I am no where near a competent Hebrew speaker) is that many (most?) nouns and verbs remain near identical. There were changes in syntax (SVO as opposed to VSO), borrowed terms from other languages and the incorporation of 90,000 new words for modern ideas which didn't exist 3000 years ago, incorporation of vowel markings and punctuation. But the language is recognizably the same.

Maybe rylah or Lipush will come along and enlighten us further.

Most of those points were in the second video I posted (which is in Hebrew). But I very much doubt 90,000 words. English has somewhere around 50,000 and we have considerably more than most.

Ha! The website of the gentleman whose video you posted claimed that Modern Hebrew has about 100,000 words. Shrug.

Anyway, not really trying to argue with you here. Though I find discussions about language interesting. My concern is mainly with the point of the OP -- which is to preserve and illuminate the rich, long, history of the Jewish people.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

That would be MOST interesting.

 

[Pogo]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history together - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

That would be MOST interesting.

Did you get the point of "Cherokee"?

That being, your definition of "nation" or "a people" is not the only one there is.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I think one can make a case for the Arab Palestinians developing a distinct nationality in the past 70 years or so.

One based upon genocidal antisemitism.

 

[Shusha]

lol How can you self identify as a member or a group that doesn't otherwise exist? The whole purpose of trying to claim they are a people is to then assert that as a people they deserve a state of their own, which is absurd since groups that are clearly distinct as a people, such as the Kurds, have no state of their own. If Israel were not Jewish, there would be no false claims the so called Palestinians are a people. Certainly the Arab states did not believe it in 1948.

Well, if enough of you self-identify, then congratulations! you exist! Personally, I am of the opinion that all peoples who self-identify as a people, who seek self-determination, who are able to bring about self-determination through co-operation with modern legal principles, and who can grow a state should have one. (Kurds, Catalans, Tibetans, First Nations, everyone).

Of course, none of this really matters in terms of what will happen in the region. Whether you recognize the so called Palestinians as a people or not, they are nearly all hostile to the existence of the state of Israel, and therefore cannot ever become part of Israel, and since there is no political entity among them that can credibly offer peace to Israel, there can never be a negotiated peace settlement, and that means Israel's security requires that Israel maintain security control over all of Judea and Samaria for the foreseeable future, and the so called Palestinians will have to remain stateless. A disquieting situation for which there is no solution.

On these points, we agree wholeheartedly.

And frankly, the biggest argument AGAINST Arab Palestinian national self-identity is their utter failure to form a nation at some time in the past 100 years. Their national identity simply isn't strong enough to bring that about.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

I'll drink to that!

 

[Shusha]

I've long suggested that Arab Palestine should become part of Jordan. They would still have the opportunity to claim self-determination, but it would strip them of the ... because Jooooooos ... reason for doing so.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history together - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

That would be MOST interesting.

Did you get the point of "Cherokee"?

That being, your definition of "nation" or "a people" is not the only one there is.

Though I would not approve, the Cherokee nation could be absorbed with the stroke of a pen.

 

[Shusha]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history together - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

That would be MOST interesting.

Did you get the point of "Cherokee"?

That being, your definition of "nation" or "a people" is not the only one there is.

Wait, I'm not sure I get it. Are you trying to argue that Cherokee is NOT a nation or a people?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

. Certainly the Arab states did not believe it in 1948.

.

There is a famous letter by King Abdullah of Jordan penned in 1948 called "As the Arabs see the Jews". It contains all the usual complaints, half truths and propaganda we still see today, but you know what it doesn't include?...….so much as one single mention of a Palestinian people.

 

[Pogo]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history together - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

That would be MOST interesting.

Did you get the point of "Cherokee"?

That being, your definition of "nation" or "a people" is not the only one there is.

Wait, I'm not sure I get it. Are you trying to argue that Cherokee is NOT a nation or a people?

Not at all, quite the contrary. I'm suggesting that (for example) the Cherokee would not fit some of the 'standards' laid down in this thread to qualify a "nation". What, for example, is the "capital" of Cherokee? I'm saying the poster, and posters in general, cannot append their own definition of "nation" to other nations which may not share that definition. The world as we see it is not the only world there is.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Please detail the process and date of the creation of the "nation of Palestine" and the designation of "Palestinians" as a recognized nationality in connection with such a sovereign state.

There doesn't have to be a State in order for the right to self-determination for a peoples to be recognized and upheld.

So I can get my personal group of Bohemians together - we share a culture and history together - and insist they be declared a people, and recognized by the nations?

That would be MOST interesting.

Did you get the point of "Cherokee"?

That being, your definition of "nation" or "a people" is not the only one there is.

Wait, I'm not sure I get it. Are you trying to argue that Cherokee is NOT a nation or a people?

Not at all, quite the contrary. I'm suggesting that (for example) the Cherokee would not fit some of the 'standards' laid down in this thread to qualify a "nation". What, for example, is the "capital" of Cherokee? I'm saying the poster, and posters in general, cannot append their own definition of "nation" to other nations which may not share that definition. The world as we see it is not the only world there is.

Cherokees were not invented out of whole cloth as a propaganda device in the latter half of the 20th century.

They arose as a people organically as have all other real peoples.