Settlements only "illegal" for Jews

[Coyote]

Consolidating Annexation of Area C, Part 1: Israel Issues Permits for 715 Palestinian Structures
On July 30th, in an exceedingly rare move, the Israeli Cabinet unanimously approved the issuance of building permits for 715 Palestinian structures in Area C of the West Bank. How rare? Between 2009 and 2016 Israel issued only 66 building permits to Palestinians in Area C (more than offset by demolitions — over the past 2 years alone, Israel has demolished at least 400 Palestinian structures in Area C because they were built without the impossible to obtain Israeli permits).

The approval of even this comparatively small number of permits for Palestinians angered Israeli settlers and their supporters. They expressed outrage at what they characterized as Israeli government “support” for any Palestinian presence in Area C, the 60% of the West Bank settlers have been pressuring the government to unilaterally annex.

Statements made around the approval, however, make clear that the decision to issue the permits for Palestinian construction is not a concession or gift to the Palestinians. One Israeli security cabinet member who voted for the plan, far-right-wing Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich (Tkuma), stated in a Facebook post that Israel’s decision to issue the permits actually advances annexation, writing:

“In the last ten years, since the launch of the Fayyad program, the Arab vision of establishing a terrorist state in Area C has been fulfilled in practice. An area under full Israeli security and civil responsibility.

For the first time, the State of Israel will make sure that in Area C, there will only be construction for the Arabs who were original residents of the area since 1994 and not Arabs who came later from Areas A and B.

For the first time, the State of Israel will determine in a clear and unmistakable manner that original inhabitants of the area will be able to build and develop only in places that do not harm the settlement enterprise and security, and do not create territorial contiguity or a de facto Palestinian state. Places that do not serve the national interests of the Arabs, rather the national strategic interests of the State of Israel.

For the first time ever, the State of Israel will implement its sovereignty over the entire territory and take responsibility for what happens inside it. Gone are the days of construction plans pushed by the PA that serve its interests. For the first time, the State of Israel will create a tool basket for real enforcement that will be enacted to neutralize the Palestinian takeover plan.” ...​

66 building permits for Palestinians in Area C in a 7 year period.

Those are facts without an understanding of the data.. And much of it is dated... The 2 NEW LARGE Pali cities constructed from SCRATCH have probably more than a THOUSAND apartments or condos just within those TWO PERMITTED locations..

What you're missing here is the whole area of "Urban Planning and Zoning" Even in the fucking USof A cities TAKE people land and bring the bulldozers... It's called "eminent domain" and it's done sometimes for spite so that a corporation can have a headquarters - or a freeway exit can be built.. OR because an area NEEDS more dense "low cost housing"...

So the Pali City states are NOT BIG on urban planning.. And LAND is very rare in Area C and SOMEONE has to decide how much infrastructure and housing is required... If Israel sees a plan for new upscale development with it's own schools, sports and shopping centers and a LOT of high density housing --- they are FAR MORE LIKELY to support it..

Someone has to make those decisions..

So with maybe a 1000 very liveable and nice units recently built on NEW LAND BY PALIS AND FOR PALIS -- you wasted a lot of facts... I'll go dig up the Promo video for those new cities...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...i-occupation-turns-50/?utm_term=.3bbd73346835

This one?

Yeah that's the upscale one.. A COMPLETE city on a hill... Read it carefully... There's a lot of pride from the Pali developers...

If Palestinians cannot get permission to spend their money in Israeli malls, Masri says, let them shop in Rawabi. That is how you build a state.

“And why not?” he said. “We’ve earned it.”

So that's already close to the thousand units I remember in just past few years..

Here's the deal... You do NEITHER SIDE any good at all returning the land to how it WAS 200 or even 80 years ago.. NEITHER SIDE wants ramshackle houses that take up valuable land when the Pali population itself is now over 2.5 Million...

Returning to the past LAND USE in that area would make BOTH sides angry... It's time to come into the 21st century... Not try to restore a museum aged dream.... There's not enough land to SUPPORT EITHER side with your simple off the cuff declaration of "just returning it to its native state"...

Sometimes "figuring it out" is more informative than a slightly used "fact dump"....

Makes you WORK for really understanding the issues...

I wasn't serious about returning it to previous land use with my comment. It was made in response to another's comment that the Arabs ought to return everything they took to the Jews (which no one criticized by the way).

Anyway - I agree with points you made largely, so I'm going to post what I posted to you privately here because it's relevant.

I don't think a "two state" concept is viable anymore....I don't think the Palestinians believe it is even possible now. I DO think the idea of city states has a potential, and the development you had mentioned (I forgot about that) is also good and they need more of that. But there IS a real problem with Palestinians getting permits build. The point I was making was yes, the law says no discrimmination but it is there. We had the same problems in our country. Why are illegal Jewish Outposts, no better constructed than the Palestinian structures allowed to remain (oh some are torn down but many eventually given infrastructure funded by local authorities and even the state).

Palestinians within Area C are a bit screwed aren't they? They don't get funding from Israel (because aren't citizens for a start) and PA funding is erratic and unapproved by Israel. It's a mess for them.

In my opinion - Israel should annex Area C, give citizenship to all it's residents or the option to move (NO coerced expulsions) and then invest in development for it's Arab citizens at the same rate it does it's Jewish citizens. Let the EU invest as well. After all, Jews in Israel get significant donations from the world wide Jewish community to help build their state. Economic investment, prosperity, and education are key factors in citizen satisfaction. Arab citizens also need to feel it's their state as well - this is a significant minority. In my opinion Israel's new National Law creates divides between citizens rather than uniting. If you can't heal internal rifts in Israel - how can you deal with the external issues of the Palestinians in Areas B and C and Gaza? IMO - Israel needs to be a state for all it's citizens, and it isn't really even though it is far better than it's neighbors. That doesn't mean it can't be a Jewish state with an identity as the homeland for Jews - but it needs to create belonging for all and in that it is not yet successful.

 

[Coyote]

Arabs (Palestine)tend to get applauded for building in Area C (disputed territory) while Israel gets condemned.

….because those who practice Judenrein automatically consider the land as Arab land -- they refer to it as THEIR land. .

The same people promoting this view would be peeing all over themselves if the reverse were true and Israel adopted the same attitude instead of providing its Arab inhabitants with more rights than they enjoy in any Arab country.

Actually - it is THEIR land. It's the Jews land. And it's the Arab's land. To each it's THEIR land.

And you know what? They each tend to refer to it as "their land" - with historic rights of place.

People are STRONGLY tied to land. We have people in America who's families have farmed the same average for generations and generations. Try telling them it's not "their land". I know people here in WV trying to buy back original average of their family farms to combine into the original plots they once had. It means things to people and land is a tie.

I don't know why you call this "Judenrein" other than as flame bait.

 

[Coyote]

WTF are you talking about?

Typically people who rail against Israel as vehemently as you do generally blame the Jews for their lack of wealth too. What do you do for work in real life?

You continue to conflate criticism of Israel's policies with "railing against Jews". Will you ever learn to separate the two?

Jews (and Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Atheists) have zip to do with my financial circumstances. I hope that clarifies it for you but I doubt it as I'm sure this will continue to come up from your corner.

You are undeniably on record as agreeing that Jews manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians.

That has nothing to do with Israeli politics.

Actually, what I agreed with was another part of what he posted, but have it your way.

Are you going to continue to drag stuff from other threads here?

I have been consistent in how I feel in regards to certain of Israel's policies. I have also been consistent in how I feel about the ill treatment of immigrants, including OUR treatment of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. I don't care if they are Jews fleeing persecution, or Muslims fleeing Isis, or Rohinga fleeing Myanmar, or Christians fleeing the horrors of the conflict in the Congo. We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate especially when we have a hand in causing those misfortunes (Iraq). How about you? You are completely absent from threads about the horrors of child rape in the Congo conflict, or forced child marriage in India, or how heroic women take the reins some African countries to make child marriage illegal.

Since we are supposed to be talking about settlements, what does any of this have to do with settlements?

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Typically people who rail against Israel as vehemently as you do generally blame the Jews for their lack of wealth too. What do you do for work in real life?

You continue to conflate criticism of Israel's policies with "railing against Jews". Will you ever learn to separate the two?

Jews (and Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Atheists) have zip to do with my financial circumstances. I hope that clarifies it for you but I doubt it as I'm sure this will continue to come up from your corner.

You are undeniably on record as agreeing that Jews manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians.

That has nothing to do with Israeli politics.

Actually, what I agreed with was another part of what he posted, but have it your way.

Are you going to continue to drag stuff from other threads here?

I have been consistent in how I feel in regards to certain of Israel's policies. I have also been consistent in how I feel about the ill treatment of immigrants, including OUR treatment of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. I don't care if they are Jews fleeing persecution, or Muslims fleeing Isis, or Rohinga fleeing Myanmar, or Christians fleeing the horrors of the conflict in the Congo. We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate especially when we have a hand in causing those misfortunes (Iraq). How about you? You are completely absent from threads about the horrors of child rape in the Congo conflict, or forced child marriage in India, or how heroic women take the reins some African countries to make child marriage illegal.

Since we are supposed to be talking about settlements, what does any of this have to do with settlements?

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

 

[Coyote]

You continue to conflate criticism of Israel's policies with "railing against Jews". Will you ever learn to separate the two?

Jews (and Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Atheists) have zip to do with my financial circumstances. I hope that clarifies it for you but I doubt it as I'm sure this will continue to come up from your corner.

You are undeniably on record as agreeing that Jews manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians.

That has nothing to do with Israeli politics.

Actually, what I agreed with was another part of what he posted, but have it your way.

Are you going to continue to drag stuff from other threads here?

I have been consistent in how I feel in regards to certain of Israel's policies. I have also been consistent in how I feel about the ill treatment of immigrants, including OUR treatment of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. I don't care if they are Jews fleeing persecution, or Muslims fleeing Isis, or Rohinga fleeing Myanmar, or Christians fleeing the horrors of the conflict in the Congo. We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate especially when we have a hand in causing those misfortunes (Iraq). How about you? You are completely absent from threads about the horrors of child rape in the Congo conflict, or forced child marriage in India, or how heroic women take the reins some African countries to make child marriage illegal.

Since we are supposed to be talking about settlements, what does any of this have to do with settlements?

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

Iraq was a shit hole under an authoritarian dictator I never heard of women and children raped daily. At any rate - we made a mess, and the we abandoned the people who put their lives at risk and helped us. That's unforgivable.

And yes - morality is subjective, I would agree on that.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

You are undeniably on record as agreeing that Jews manipulate Muslims to slaughter Christians.

That has nothing to do with Israeli politics.

Actually, what I agreed with was another part of what he posted, but have it your way.

Are you going to continue to drag stuff from other threads here?

I have been consistent in how I feel in regards to certain of Israel's policies. I have also been consistent in how I feel about the ill treatment of immigrants, including OUR treatment of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. I don't care if they are Jews fleeing persecution, or Muslims fleeing Isis, or Rohinga fleeing Myanmar, or Christians fleeing the horrors of the conflict in the Congo. We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate especially when we have a hand in causing those misfortunes (Iraq). How about you? You are completely absent from threads about the horrors of child rape in the Congo conflict, or forced child marriage in India, or how heroic women take the reins some African countries to make child marriage illegal.

Since we are supposed to be talking about settlements, what does any of this have to do with settlements?

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

Iraq was a shit hole under an authoritarian dictator I never heard of women and children raped daily. At any rate - we made a mess, and the we abandoned the people who put their lives at risk and helped us. That's unforgivable.

And yes - morality is subjective, I would agree on that.

Research it. Daily. Hell his sons raped 100s of women. So you want to fight endless wars? Eventually we have to leave.
This deserves its own thread

Muslim countries Crime Stats: NationMaster.com

rape rate nearly 4x higher than non Muslim nations

 

[Coyote]

Actually, what I agreed with was another part of what he posted, but have it your way.

Are you going to continue to drag stuff from other threads here?

I have been consistent in how I feel in regards to certain of Israel's policies. I have also been consistent in how I feel about the ill treatment of immigrants, including OUR treatment of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. I don't care if they are Jews fleeing persecution, or Muslims fleeing Isis, or Rohinga fleeing Myanmar, or Christians fleeing the horrors of the conflict in the Congo. We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate especially when we have a hand in causing those misfortunes (Iraq). How about you? You are completely absent from threads about the horrors of child rape in the Congo conflict, or forced child marriage in India, or how heroic women take the reins some African countries to make child marriage illegal.

Since we are supposed to be talking about settlements, what does any of this have to do with settlements?

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

Iraq was a shit hole under an authoritarian dictator I never heard of women and children raped daily. At any rate - we made a mess, and the we abandoned the people who put their lives at risk and helped us. That's unforgivable.

And yes - morality is subjective, I would agree on that.

Research it. Daily. Hell his sons raped 100s of women. So you want to fight endless wars? Eventually we have to leave.
This deserves its own thread

Muslim countries Crime Stats: NationMaster.com

rape rate nearly 4x higher than non Muslim nations

Am I missing something? I don't see what you are claiming. What is shows is (for 2009) 3.65 3 times less than average.
3 times less than average

 

[Coyote]

Actually, what I agreed with was another part of what he posted, but have it your way.

Are you going to continue to drag stuff from other threads here?

I have been consistent in how I feel in regards to certain of Israel's policies. I have also been consistent in how I feel about the ill treatment of immigrants, including OUR treatment of Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. I don't care if they are Jews fleeing persecution, or Muslims fleeing Isis, or Rohinga fleeing Myanmar, or Christians fleeing the horrors of the conflict in the Congo. We, as a wealthy nation, owe it to the less fortunate especially when we have a hand in causing those misfortunes (Iraq). How about you? You are completely absent from threads about the horrors of child rape in the Congo conflict, or forced child marriage in India, or how heroic women take the reins some African countries to make child marriage illegal.

Since we are supposed to be talking about settlements, what does any of this have to do with settlements?

Sushu posted a good article on that, which, in my mind seems to make two points: Israel is occupying certain territory and building settlements. Other countries have done the same, but only Israel (and Russia) is condemned for it. They should ALL be equally condemned don't you think?

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

Iraq was a shit hole under an authoritarian dictator I never heard of women and children raped daily. At any rate - we made a mess, and the we abandoned the people who put their lives at risk and helped us. That's unforgivable.

And yes - morality is subjective, I would agree on that.

Research it. Daily. Hell his sons raped 100s of women. So you want to fight endless wars? Eventually we have to leave.
This deserves its own thread

Muslim countries Crime Stats: NationMaster.com

rape rate nearly 4x higher than non Muslim nations

Start a thread.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

Iraq was a shit hole under an authoritarian dictator I never heard of women and children raped daily. At any rate - we made a mess, and the we abandoned the people who put their lives at risk and helped us. That's unforgivable.

And yes - morality is subjective, I would agree on that.

Research it. Daily. Hell his sons raped 100s of women. So you want to fight endless wars? Eventually we have to leave.
This deserves its own thread

Muslim countries Crime Stats: NationMaster.com

rape rate nearly 4x higher than non Muslim nations

Am I missing something? I don't see what you are claiming. What is shows is (for 2009) 3.65 3 times less than average.
3 times less than average

That’s because it’s not reported as rape.
The sadistic lifestyle of eldest Hussein son

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I do not agree at all. We are not the repository for the ills of other nations. We have our own issue. Hamas and Fatah want Israel destroyed. They should take them out now IMO. They have been way too nice.

We have a moral responsibility to help when we can - something all the major religions recognize by the way. And when we are instrumental in the cause of the problems (an easy example is Iraq) - it's not just a responsibility but a moral imperative as a nation in my opinion. Take or leave it.

I disagree. Morality is subjective anyway. Iraq was a shit hole where women and kids were raped daily. Par for the course for mostly Islamic countries but I agree we had no business going in there. You cannot force Democracy. Bush was the single worst president of my lifetime.

Iraq was a shit hole under an authoritarian dictator I never heard of women and children raped daily. At any rate - we made a mess, and the we abandoned the people who put their lives at risk and helped us. That's unforgivable.

And yes - morality is subjective, I would agree on that.

Research it. Daily. Hell his sons raped 100s of women. So you want to fight endless wars? Eventually we have to leave.
This deserves its own thread

Muslim countries Crime Stats: NationMaster.com

rape rate nearly 4x higher than non Muslim nations

Start a thread.

Maybe. My point is Hussein and his kids were awful people and I am OK killing them but to try to force Democracy on people who don’t want it is stupid.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Maybe. My point is Hussein and his kids were awful people and I am OK killing them but to try to force Democracy on people who don’t want it is stupid.

It is particularly stupid since it fails to understand the primitive nature of the culture involved. In the inbred Arab world, people's loyalty is to blood, not ideals. It's their clan that matters, not some idealistic vision of how a country should operate.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

I think that you are right in your general position. In fact, calling them "awful" is really → much too kind. They are not simply barbaric → but extremely vicious and psychotic sociopathics with absolutely no conscience. They were medically beyond being mentally disturbed. They were no better than unstable rabid animals.

Maybe. My point is Hussein and his kids were awful people and I am OK killing them but to try to force Democracy on people who don’t want it is stupid.

(COMMENT)

Our friend "AzogtheDefiler" is right on the money concerning regime change and forced democratization. Nations that have been brutalized by their own - over decades are not likely to recover and embrace any representative form of government. They will not respect or follow soft regimes; corruption and the abuse of power on the official scale is considered a traditional way of doing business.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

RE: Settlements only "illegal" for Jews
⁜→ AzogtheDefiler, et al,

I think that you are right in your general position. In fact, calling them "awful" is really → much too kind. They are not simply barbaric → but extremely vicious and psychotic sociopathic with absolutely no conscience. They were mentally beyond being mentally disturbed. They were no better than unstable rabid animals.

Maybe. My point is Hussein and his kids were awful people and I am OK killing them but to try to force Democracy on people who don’t want it is stupid.

(COMMENT)

Our friend "AzogtheDefiler" is right on the money concerning regime change and forced democratization. Nations that have been brutalized by their own - over decades are not likely to recover and embrace any representative form of government. They will not respect or follow soft regimes; corruption and the abuse of power on the official scale is considered a traditional way of doing business.


Most Respectfully,
R

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Shusha]

I don't think a "two state" concept is viable anymore....

The "two state" (actually three state, and now four state) solution was never viable. Because the Arabs never wanted it. And not just the "Palestinian Arabs", but all the neighboring Arabs as well. That is why there was a war in 1948, and again in 1967, and the more-or-less continuous wars with Gaza since 2005. That is why Palestinian Arabs have never accepted any "land and sovereignty for peace" deals. That is why Arab nations continue to reject "normalization" with Israel.

I DO think the idea of city states has a potential...

There are plenty of precedents for territories which have some limited form of sovereignty or semi-independent self-government while falling under the sovereignty of a "parent" State. Greenland. Bermuda. Puerto Rico. Just a few examples.

However, and this is relevant to the context of this thread, it is very likely to be yet another example of "its only illegal when Israel does it". The UN, the EU and I'm sure many posters on this board, will come up with all sorts of "legal reasons" why Israel isn't permitted to create a "one and a half state" solution.

But there IS a real problem with Palestinians getting permits build. The point I was making was yes, the law says no discrimmination but it is there. We had the same problems in our country. Why are illegal Jewish Outposts, no better constructed than the Palestinian structures allowed to remain (oh some are torn down but many eventually given infrastructure funded by local authorities and even the state).

I think you do the complexity of the facts on the ground a disservice by labeling it as "discrimination". While I do not in any way disagree that discrimination exists in Israel (as in all places in the world), it is not discrimination which is driving this. Its a complicated situation where citizens of one (sort of) country are living in territory under the control of another country, under conditions of armed conflict between a government force and insurgents informally encouraged (read: paid) to perform acts of terrorism.

By claiming this is simply "discrimination" you are able to shift all the blame to Israel, with the idea that if Israel would just stop hating Arabs because they are Arabs, then everything will be rainbows and unicorns.

Palestinians within Area C are a bit screwed aren't they?

Palestinians in Area C are screwed, in the sense that they are caught in the lack-of-progress which is the status quo. But first you over-emphasize how "screwed" they are. They are citizens of Palestine. They receive education, medical services, sanitation, water and economic opportunities from or in Palestine. They aren't screwed, so much as "stuck". The place where they are stuck is in improvements to infrastructure (at least in isolated communities -- it doesn't so much matter if they are in places where Areas A or B simply grow out into Area C. Israel permits that without fuss).

First, we are talking about a relatively small number of Palestinians which are "stuck" in this position. I can't remember the exact numbers, but ~90,000? if memory serves. And I agree wholeheartedly that Israel should just treat these Palestinians AS THOUGH they were Israeli citizens. Hell, offer them citizenship, and see who takes it. Then give all the carrots. So many carrots.

Arab citizens also need to feel it's their state as well

I think you overstate this. Israeli Arabs are very much invested in State of Israel -- their State. At least that is firmly my impression.

Israel needs to be a state for all it's citizens, and it isn't really even though it is far better than it's neighbors. ... but it needs to create belonging for all and in that it is not yet successful.

I think this is a very "Western" view of reality. It is my distinct impression that Arab Israelis are quite invested in their country of Israel.

In my opinion Israel's new National Law creates divides between citizens rather than uniting. ... doesn't mean it can't be a Jewish state with an identity as the homeland for Jews...

But you see the tension between those two statements, right? How can it be a Jewish state when it can't even identify itself as a Jewish state through its National Law? How can you reconcile those two things?




Here is an interesting talk given by Prof. Eugene Kontorovich on the "one state solution". If you don't want to watch the whole thing (30 minutes) the main points are between about the 9 minute and the 25 minute marks.

 

[Spartacactcus]

They are? Why was it a nomadic wasteland until the formation of Israel? Why is Israel more advanced than any mostly Muslim country? Hmmmm?

Yep they are a mix of people like most nations are when you do a little digging into the history The truth is that the pre Zionist Jews of Palestine had fairly decent relationships within the country with other groups. Not only that it took the Hebron massacre of 1929 to undermine the very distinct rift between the recent European immigrant Zionist Jews and the pre Zionist Jews of Palestine.

Pre zionist Palestine was no " nomadic wasteland " either. The Ottomans kept records of the land usage during their tenure and Palestine was a thriving place within the region itself which was a mass Syrian province.

Israel is more advanced because it has wealthy sponsors that fund stuff for it. The US bankrolls the military and the US and others subsidize the occupation of the Palestinians. The Arabs have been basically controlled by the West since the fall of the Ottomans and have suffered dreadfully as a result. Have they made mistakes ? Absolutely but to not want to factor in the outside influences that have kept the region down is a mistake imo

As for Israel being the only democracy, well, that's not strictly true either. The Palestinians themselves held free and fair elections in 2006 remember and the self proclaimed champions of global democracy promotion rejected their elections. They were guilty of voting the wrong way in a free and fair election that was then attacked by the same people you seem to see as supporters of democracy.

 

[Spartacactcus]

The "two state" (actually three state, and now four state) solution was never viable. Because the Arabs never wanted it. And not just the "Palestinian Arabs", but all the neighboring Arabs as well. That is why there was a war in 1948, and again in 1967, and the more-or-less continuous wars with Gaza since 2005. That is why Palestinian Arabs have never accepted any "land and sovereignty for peace" deals. That is why Arab nations continue to reject "normalization" with Israel.

The Arabs stated as far back as 2001 the willingness to normalize relations with Israel as per the Arab Peace Initiative which called for the resolution based on the 67 borders/lines.

There is nothing unreasonable about the Arab rejection of the enforcement of a Jewish state upon them imo. Would the citizens of the US or European nations support the enforced creation of a Muslim state in the middle of their countries. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and it is completely unreasonable to expect them to do so.

The peace plans you talk of fell well short of what the law entitles the Palestinians to. Let the law be the arbiter not the power dynamic and it looks different , very different

 

[Spartacactcus]

American left:

Millions of Mexicans pour across US border to settle in the US which is praised by them and aided by them. Those that oppose them are bigots and haters.

A few Jews cross into West bank to settle and are considered criminals.

Only the insane American Left.

The Mexicans have a country they can choose to leave or stay in and so do the Jewish people, the Palestinians don't and have been having their rights violated en masse for over a century and chronically for around 70 odd years.

The " Left " didn't make the setters criminal , the laws that Israel agreed to be bound by did and do

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

They are? Why was it a nomadic wasteland until the formation of Israel? Why is Israel more advanced than any mostly Muslim country? Hmmmm?

Yep they are a mix of people like most nations are when you do a little digging into the history The truth is that the pre Zionist Jews of Palestine had fairly decent relationships within the country with other groups. Not only that it took the Hebron massacre of 1929 to undermine the very distinct rift between the recent European immigrant Zionist Jews and the pre Zionist Jews of Palestine.

Pre zionist Palestine was no " nomadic wasteland " either. The Ottomans kept records of the land usage during their tenure and Palestine was a thriving place within the region itself which was a mass Syrian province.

Israel is more advanced because it has wealthy sponsors that fund stuff for it. The US bankrolls the military and the US and others subsidize the occupation of the Palestinians. The Arabs have been basically controlled by the West since the fall of the Ottomans and have suffered dreadfully as a result. Have they made mistakes ? Absolutely but to not want to factor in the outside influences that have kept the region down is a mistake imo

As for Israel being the only democracy, well, that's not strictly true either. The Palestinians themselves held free and fair elections in 2006 remember and the self proclaimed champions of global democracy promotion rejected their elections. They were guilty of voting the wrong way in a free and fair election that was then attacked by the same people you seem to see as supporters of democracy.

Your post is factually incorrect. Is this a burner account for Tinmore? No Mostly Islamic country is even close to a Democracy.

 

[Shusha]

The Arabs stated as far back as 2001 the willingness to normalize relations with Israel as per the Arab Peace Initiative which called for the resolution based on the 67 borders/lines.

Strange. Because they have never actually accepted any offers. Even those based on "67 borders" (which are neither borders nor from 1967). Why is that, do you think?

There is nothing unreasonable about the Arab rejection of the enforcement of a Jewish state upon them imo.

Ah, there it is.

Would the citizens of the US or European nations support the enforced creation of a Muslim state in the middle of their countries.

Funny that you should mention that. Um. Yes. As a matter of fact, the partitioning of former Empires and states into smaller nations based on ethnic divisions is the NORM in the world.

The peace plans you talk of fell well short of what the law entitles the Palestinians to. Let the law be the arbiter not the power dynamic and it looks different , very different

Oh, I agree. Please, bring it. What does the "law" entitle Arab Palestinians to?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

American left:

Millions of Mexicans pour across US border to settle in the US which is praised by them and aided by them. Those that oppose them are bigots and haters.

A few Jews cross into West bank to settle and are considered criminals.

Only the insane American Left.

The Mexicans have a country they can choose to leave or stay in and so do the Jewish people, the Palestinians don't and have been having their rights violated en masse for over a century and chronically for around 70 odd years.

The " Left " didn't make the setters criminal , the laws that Israel agreed to be bound by did and do

There were no such people as "Palestinian" a century ago. They just referred to themselves as Arabs, and sometimes when pressed, would call themselves Southern Syrians.