CDZ Serious question for independents/moderates/centrists, etc.

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Mac1958, May 13, 2017.

  1. Divine.Wind
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    Divine.Wind Platinum Member

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    The climate change "debate" is a classic example of politics twisting science. Personally, I blame Al Gore for the hyperbole and politicization after his defeat in 2000. The argument was political and, as political arguments often do, were met with "push back". It was the Left saying "We're all going to die! We need to shut down the factories now!!!" and the Right saying "Bullshit. We're fine". The truth is in the middle.

    A scientist will present data and then add, "needs more research". A politician will say "this means something" or "this means nothing", meaning they will draw a conclusion from data that doesn't prove either case.

    Critical thinkers will look at the data and agree that the climate is changing. There are pros and cons to those changes. There is evidence of both natural and manmade processes at work. There is evidence we can influence the environment, but no evidence we can stop or reverse the process.

    As for "the Newz", they'll push whatever sells. Period.
    God Bless America!
     
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  2. Divine.Wind
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    Divine.Wind Platinum Member

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    Agreed things aren't as bad as some purport. Our nation has been through a lot worse times.
     
  3. dblack
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    dblack Gold Member

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    I try to do a lot of 'reading between the lines'. That's dangerous too, of course. It makes one even more susceptible to confirmation bias. But you can often glean the real story underlying fake news if you're willing to work a bit more. I sometimes read three or four different articles on the same story.

    Reading several takes on any given story will help in a couple of ways. Obviously, the differences in the way the stories are reported is important. But even more insight can drawn from the similarities, especially when several mainstream sources all contain the exact same verbiage. When you see that, it's a good bet it's 'fake news' - ie a particular plea or point of view being funnelled to the news media for distribution.

    Ted Koppel did some great work exposing this news pipeline approach to propaganda ten years ago. The tldr: Some news reporters - too many - are lazy and unscrupulous. They will happily regurgitate material handed to them by propagandists if it bumps their word count and helps them meet a deadline. Especially if doing so puts them "in good" with a particular information source. (ie reporters that write the stories as directed by their 'sponsors' are more likely to get the inside scoop from those sources.)
     
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  4. Dogmaphobe
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    Dogmaphobe Platinum Member

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    East Palo Alto? I didn't know anybody adventurous enough to brave going there during the day, much less at night.
     
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  5. Picaro
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    Picaro Gold Member

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    Well enough; if somebody doesn't get that it isn't your problem.

    Did your school by chance ever give a course or an overview on Gramsci? Alinsky's 'rules for radicals' is Gramsci For Dummies, basically, only Gramsci digs a lot into changing meanings of words, methodologies for changing entire cultures by gradual means using the media, and tactics for destroying weaker cultures and making them 'receptive' to takeovers by 'intellectuals' and 'Marxist' politicians.

    His methods permeate the 'left' wing and 'progressives' rhetoric; even advertising pros use his methods, and so do right wingers; 'Libertarians' are especially prone to using his methods, they probably don't know where it comes from. Pravda and other propagandists used his stuff, along with other research from psychologists. Alinsky's 'Gramsci Lite' was popularized in the late 1950's and took hold in both Europe and the U.S. on college campuses, and a lot of the old Soviet Cold War narratives are very much alive and well still to this day.. We didn't 'get here' overnight
     
  6. Picaro
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    Picaro Gold Member

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    Took the exit off 101 once, just to see if it lived up to the reputation; hardly anybody on the streets, not even cars, and the sidewalks, gutters and streets were literally covered with discarded needles. Turned around and left immediately. Very spooky place. I used to live a few exits south, down in Sunnyvale, during the week for a couple of years, off Fair Oaks.
     
  7. Divine.Wind
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    Divine.Wind Platinum Member

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    The comments piqued my interest so I looked it up and found this:

    East Palo Alto, California - Wikipedia
    "...43% of East Palo Alto's residents were African Americans in 1990,[7] which was the result of redlining practices and racial deed restrictions in Palo Alto.[8] Latinos now constitute about 65% of the total population, while the proportion of African Americans has decreased to about 15%. A small minority of Pacific Islanders also reside in East Palo Alto, most of Tongan, Samoan and Indo-Fijian origin.[citation needed]. East Palo Alto has the largest concentration of Pacific Islanders of any American city or town outside of Hawaii[citation needed].

    In the past, East Palo Alto experienced profound crime and poverty, especially during the 1980s and early 1990s. In 1992, it had the highest homicide rate in the country with 24,322 people, and 42 murders, equaling a rate of 172.7 homicides per 100,000 residents.[9] Since then the city's crime problems have subsided, and the murder rate in particular has declined to a typical urban level. In 2006, East Palo Alto experienced a comparatively low six murders, seven in 2007, and only five in 2008...
    ."

    Times change and seeing the murder rate drop from "the highest in the country" in 1992 with over 24,000 murders/year down to an average of 7 murders/year around 2007 as the racial demographics changed is interesting.
     
  8. Mac1958
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    Mac1958 Diamond Member

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    FYI, I was the student, not the teacher. A hungover student, usually, full disclosure.

    :rock:

    It would be interesting to trace the political trajectory that got us to this place on college campuses. It's certainly an element of this grotesque ideological binary system that we're in....
    .
     
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  9. Wry Catcher
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    Wry Catcher Platinum Member

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    Well, maybe you did attend Stanford, I was testing you. On the west shore of the south bay in east Palo Alto there was a drug program run by a group which included bible study as part of their rehab. treatment. I needed to interview a victim who was on felony probation and serving day for day credit there. This was in the early 80's, and at that time was as you suggest, it was a very violent community.
     
  10. Dogmaphobe
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    Dogmaphobe Platinum Member

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    Obviously. Do you actually think you had to tell me that?

    Getting back to the topic, one thing I have noticed over the years is that right wingers seem to have no problems calling themselves right wingers. Doctrinaire leftists all too often squirm and deny they are leftists, even when they are utterly conformist and play the game of identity politics to the hilt.

    I miss the days when the left embraced liberalism as its guiding principle. Multiculturalism has destroyed that as it is actually in the business of preserving social injustice -- an archly conservative approach to politics. The fear of being called racist has resulted in the establishment of an entire belief system predicated upon double standards. Liberalism is all about the application of universal principles, but Multiculturalism concerns itself with preserving social mores of certain groups, no matter how illiberal.

    Since you play the game of identity politics the way you do, going so far as to defend Islamists, I referred to you as a leftist. If you had a track record of supporting liberal principles, I would have identified you as a liberal. This thread, however, was an invitation to those who AREN'T strongly partisan and while there are certainly no rules governing who can and cannot respond, at least a little honesty might be in order when those with strongly partisan views do respond.
     
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