Separation of Church and Hate

[Yurt]

if you are going to do a discussion about this, be honest and talk about churches that promote liberal agendas...you know, like gettting obama elected. this bullshit that it is only conservative churches is old. its ok, as long as the church promotes liberal or democrat ideas and candidates.....

not a peep from you guys when obama's church was promoting him using political sermons. not a peep about the hate from sermons there....oh no, only conservatives hate.

pathetic

I will assume you are not talking about me ... for many reasons but mostly because:

I stated many times that because of his attitude toward the hatred his own preacher was trying to spread was a good sign that Obama was not a good idea.

As for the idea that all "churches are conservative", many I know have very liberal ideals (the true liberal ideals not the wingnut ones we see in politics) and have never said otherwise.

you're right to assume that, i was referring to those who bash on so called right wing conservative churches and then blatently ignore those on the left...i mean hey, as long as THEIR message gets out

 

[KittenKoder]

One problem I am seeing repeated by some is the use of "agenda" as a dirty word or insult, simple fact, it's not because EVERYTHING is an agenda ... true story, look it up if you don't believe me.

 

[Smartt33]

We're not the ones doing the hating.

I agree with whoever it was that said in this thread that it is not you who may be hating, but there are secular people who do hate Christians simply because we are Christian. I'll refer you to the protests against the supporters of Prop 8 (I think that was the number for the prop against gay marriage) in the last California election. The gay community was very vocal in their Christian hatred and has been in many prior instances as well. That doesn't mean all gays hate Christians either, just as not all Christians hate gays.

Hatred goes both ways in this battle. Clearly the Religious "right", can be hateful although I sometimes find it difficult to find Christ in many of the political leaders who claim a love of Christ, but as Christians "we" are hated... sometimes even deservedly so.

Hatred does go both ways. You might not hate Christians, but there are secular people out there who despise Christians as much as a dumb redneck member of the KKK despise black people.

Very good article by the way.

Immie

Wow ... just wow ... serious blinders there. Do you enjoy ignoring all the protests against gay people being buried after they die as well? Protests are against something, just because the campaign to get it signed was not a protest does not make it different. The protests and the campaign to push it were both the same, just one for support the other against. That is not "hatred" in any way, that is our legal right and obligation, it's demonstrating both sides. Would you prefer all decisions be based only on the information of those who support propositions?

There are many non-christians who are not "secular" as well, you are by far not the only religion, and those who are against religion as a whole do not just attack you, this is why many have seen you as "playing the victim", because you are making it all about you and ignoring all other groups who are also involved, trying to make it all "black and white". Do you know what the rainbow is about, why gay people brought that one symbol into the civil rights movement?

Smartt: While some of those idiots who protest at funerals claim to be christians, they don't even come close to representing anything to do with christians. I agree that is hate in action, and it is unChristian, and anti Bible. 99% of the Christians in the world would disagree with their protests. I think you already know that. Contrary to what some of the people here will admit, there is a gay agenda, and it is a serious one that includes more dirt than we Christians will accept. I have not felt attacked by anyone.

There is not any of the efforts against Christianity that I really have any fear of. Why? Because I am a Christian no matter what the people, and government think about Christians. I will live my Christian life out because it is about my relationship with God and not with the world. I vote, as any American should, but my vote is not ever an expression of a hate for people anywhere.

There are and will ever be hard feelings about the issues. That will not change. I know Christians everywhere who love the person and hate the sin. I am one of them.

 

[YWN666]

There are and will ever be hard feelings about the issues. That will not change. I know Christians everywhere who love the person and hate the sin. I am one of them.

I have heard that "love the person and hate the sin" and think it is pure nonsense. A person's sexual orientation is a part of their identity so it doesn't make sense to say that you love the person but hate their homosexuality. It's like saying to you (Smartt), "I love you but hate the fact that you're a Christian"

 

[Immanuel]

There are and will ever be hard feelings about the issues. That will not change. I know Christians everywhere who love the person and hate the sin. I am one of them.

I have heard that "love the person and hate the sin" and think it is pure nonsense. A person's sexual orientation is a part of their identity so it doesn't make sense to say that you love the person but hate their homosexuality. It's like saying to you (Smartt), "I love you but hate the fact that you're a Christian"

Love the sinner, hate the sin is a philosophy that we Christians should live by. For a point of reference I would cite Matt 22:34-40:

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Unfortunately, there is a conflict in our hearts that sometimes prevents that message from getting out. When Christians become political activists they can be seen as having lost that message. They may still believe it and live it, but their words don't always show it. When one is condemning the act of homosexuality, it is pretty difficult to show that one loves the person caught up in the sin itself. One may feel that love, but feeling it and expressing it are two different matters.

As an example, I post on this site and others like it a lot. Some times I am being sarcastic when I make a post and don't expect anyone to take me seriously, yet, I can get blasted from unexpected corners of the internet for something I wrote that was meant as a joke and to me was clearly written as one.

Note: I am not at all insinuating that Christians should not become political activists, but they should realize that the minute they do, someone is going to take offense at something they say and will eventually blame Christ for the message.

Case in point, KK took something I said earlier in this thread offensively when I was not even attempting to offend anyone. I mean Darn! there are times when I try very hard to offend, and no one seems to care, but when I am not even trying to offend... well, this is a crazy world after all.

Immie

 

[KittenKoder]

"Love the person hate the sin" is a way to appear to be loving while still hating, nothing more. You can say "love people, but not like what they do sometimes" and that would be better, see, no hatred, no trying to conform then to your way, no expecting them to follow your belief. Wording can mean a lot to everyone now, it's just simply the way we humans are, language means more to us then many people realize.

 

[YWN666]

"Love the person hate the sin" is a way to appear to be loving while still hating, nothing more.

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Immanuel]

The fact that you think anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred ... that is your blinder. I never saw anything about the gay protests demonstrating hate, and what I had seen was just well ... "no on prop 8" ... if that's hatred then I must hate everything.

And where, pray tell, did I say that anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred? Oh, wait, you left wingers believe that anyone who opposes abortion hates women... so maybe you just have a mental block on the whole idea?

You must have been sitting through the election with a blindfold on.

There was one woman who was physically assaulted because she appeared at a "No on 8" rally with a cross.

Many churches suffered graffiti and vandalism because of the battle over Prop 8... assault, and vandalism are forms of hatred not protest.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

It's all about perception. Your perception is that Christians who are kind to indigents, despite their charity, the time they spend, and the risks they take to do so, REALLY hate those people.

Sorry hon, not true. I've dealt with people (including sex offenders) who are despised almost universally, who have done terrible things, who have victimized people, who are drug addicts and alcoholics and flipping satan worshippers.

I love people. I love them en masse. I think we are wonderful creations made in the image of God, and I think every aspect of our personalities and our minds and our souls and our world are wonderful, glorious things. I can even find God in sex offenders and be amazed at the intricacies of their deceitful, cunning thoughts and behaviors.

I'm sad for the people who are lost. And I do get angry at people for deliberately casting aspersions on Christians, but that doesn't mean I hate the people who do it.

 

[Father Time]

The fact that you think anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred ... that is your blinder. I never saw anything about the gay protests demonstrating hate, and what I had seen was just well ... "no on prop 8" ... if that's hatred then I must hate everything.

And where, pray tell, did I say that anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred? Oh, wait, you left wingers believe that anyone who opposes abortion hates women... so maybe you just have a mental block on the whole idea?

You must have been sitting through the election with a blindfold on.

There was one woman who was physically assaulted because she appeared at a "No on 8" rally with a cross.

Many churches suffered graffiti and vandalism because of the battle over Prop 8... assault, and vandalism are forms of hatred not protest.

Immie

That woman was there to taunt the protestors, she's done that crap before, the police even knew her by name. Destruction of property is uncalled for but they didn't do it unprovoked. Haven't heard of the spray painting though.

 

[Immanuel]

The fact that you think anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred ... that is your blinder. I never saw anything about the gay protests demonstrating hate, and what I had seen was just well ... "no on prop 8" ... if that's hatred then I must hate everything.

And where, pray tell, did I say that anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred? Oh, wait, you left wingers believe that anyone who opposes abortion hates women... so maybe you just have a mental block on the whole idea?

You must have been sitting through the election with a blindfold on.

There was one woman who was physically assaulted because she appeared at a "No on 8" rally with a cross.

Many churches suffered graffiti and vandalism because of the battle over Prop 8... assault, and vandalism are forms of hatred not protest.

Immie

That woman was there to taunt the protestors, she's done that crap before, the police even knew her by name. Destruction of property is uncalled for but they didn't do it unprovoked. Haven't heard of the spray painting though.

By KK's own words, there is nothing hateful about protesting. She was there to protest as well. They assaulted her out of hatred for what she stood for.

Would you explain how church's provoked the destruction of their property please?

I am pro-life and opposed to the pro-choice message. Would a pro-choice rally in my town, be considered provocation for me to break windows and do other destructive damage to a Planned Parenthood office near me? Would the appearance of a pro-choice person, who was well known to the police in my area, at a pro-life rally be considered provocation for me to assault her? I hope and believe that your answer to those questions would be no and if we turned the tables your answer would still be no.

We have a right to protest. We do not have the right to assault others because we don't agree with them.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that hatred goes both ways. Some Christians may say, "love the sinner; hate the sin", but they sure as heck do not always convey the message by their actions and conversely, Christians can be hated as well.

Now, you and I can point fingers at each other and scream and holler that it is the other guys fault, but that doesn't solve the issue. Hatred goes both ways. Whose fault it is is irrelevant.

Immie

 

[KittenKoder]

I must admit ignorance on this ordeal, however I can point to many protests that get violent and not all from one side or the other, the spread is pretty even in reality. There are provokers on both sides, and often the provokers can easily turn a tense but peaceful protest into violence. The fact that neither side is willing to take the blame for their part speaks volumes on how divided out country has gotten.

 

[YWN666]

I'm sad for the people who are lost. And I do get angry at people for deliberately casting aspersions on Christians, but that doesn't mean I hate the people who do it.

How do you define "lost"?

 

[Immanuel]

I must admit ignorance on this ordeal, however I can point to many protests that get violent and not all from one side or the other, the spread is pretty even in reality. There are provokers on both sides, and often the provokers can easily turn a tense but peaceful protest into violence. The fact that neither side is willing to take the blame for their part speaks volumes on how divided out country has gotten.

I agree. It does go both ways which is what I was trying to say from the beginning.

It is sad that we can't all love and understand each other and agree with everyone about everything so that there would be no conflict... but then if we did, we would not be human.

I have to admit that my feelings for the "other side" have evolved (Whoops! there is that word again!) since I started posting on these sites. For instance, when I started posting, I was adamantly pro-life and anyone who was pro-choice was the devil's spawn. Well, I have come to realize that there are legitimate reasons that people do not see eye to eye with me on this issue. I still believe they are wrong, but not necessarily evil.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I'm sad for the people who are lost. And I do get angry at people for deliberately casting aspersions on Christians, but that doesn't mean I hate the people who do it.

What about Christians like me who do an awful job at proclaiming the love of Christ and end up giving Christ a black eye, while attempting to bring others to faith?

Please don't be angry with me and I am more than in need of your prayers so that I can do better in the future.

Immie

 

[Father Time]

And where, pray tell, did I say that anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred? Oh, wait, you left wingers believe that anyone who opposes abortion hates women... so maybe you just have a mental block on the whole idea?

You must have been sitting through the election with a blindfold on.

There was one woman who was physically assaulted because she appeared at a "No on 8" rally with a cross.

Many churches suffered graffiti and vandalism because of the battle over Prop 8... assault, and vandalism are forms of hatred not protest.

Immie

That woman was there to taunt the protestors, she's done that crap before, the police even knew her by name. Destruction of property is uncalled for but they didn't do it unprovoked. Haven't heard of the spray painting though.

By KK's own words, there is nothing hateful about protesting. She was there to protest as well. They assaulted her out of hatred for what she stood for.

Would you explain how church's provoked the destruction of their property please?

I am pro-life and opposed to the pro-choice message. Would a pro-choice rally in my town, be considered provocation for me to break windows and do other destructive damage to a Planned Parenthood office near me? Would the appearance of a pro-choice person, who was well known to the police in my area, at a pro-life rally be considered provocation for me to assault her? I hope and believe that your answer to those questions would be no and if we turned the tables your answer would still be no.

We have a right to protest. We do not have the right to assault others because we don't agree with them.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that hatred goes both ways. Some Christians may say, "love the sinner; hate the sin", but they sure as heck do not always convey the message by their actions and conversely, Christians can be hated as well.

Now, you and I can point fingers at each other and scream and holler that it is the other guys fault, but that doesn't solve the issue. Hatred goes both ways. Whose fault it is is irrelevant.

Immie

Did I not say that the destruction was uncalled for. I've just seen the incident painted as rabid libs attacking a sweet innocent old lady which was not the case. Nothing makes spray painting a church OK in my book.

I remember in the event they from the looks of it told all the pro-8 people to get to one side of a street and all the anti-8 people on another. She wandered onto their side when both sides were flinging harsh words and yelling at each other.

This still does not make destroying her cardboard cross OK though.

 

[Immanuel]

Did I not say that the destruction was uncalled for.

But, my question was how did the church provoke it?

I've just seen the incident painted as rabid libs attacking a sweet innocent old lady which was not the case.

Well, I won't claim she was entirely innocent. But, what I WAS trying to point out was that the anti-8 crowd's actions were based solely on hatred of Christians.

By the way, I no longer live in California, but, I can say that even though I am a Christian, I cannot say that I would have supported Prop 8 and I can definitely say that I would not have been protesting for it and I may even have been on the anti side.

I do not support the Christian hatred of the gay community. I am not for gay activist, but I do not support the Christian hatred of the gay community.

Nothing makes spray painting a church OK in my book.

I got that from your earlier post. I did not mean to insinuate that you thought spray painting a church was cool, if I did.

I remember in the event they from the looks of it told all the pro-8 people to get to one side of a street and all the anti-8 people on another. She wandered onto their side when both sides were flinging harsh words and yelling at each other.

This still does not make destroying her cardboard cross OK though.

If I may ask, who is "they" in this statement? Sorry, I'm not picking up on the use of they here.

Immie

 

[Father Time]

Did I not say that the destruction was uncalled for.

But, my question was how did the church provoke it?

I was talking about the women. I cannot say the spray painted church did not provoke it because I don't even know the church but in any case that does not make spray painting it OK. If you mean the Christian church the hatered of that is also unwarranted (though as you said not entirely)

I've just seen the incident painted as rabid libs attacking a sweet innocent old lady which was not the case.

Well, I won't claim she was entirely innocent. But, what I WAS trying to point out was that the anti-8 crowd's actions were based solely on hatred of Christians.

By the way, I no longer live in California, but, I can say that even though I am a Christian, I cannot say that I would have supported Prop 8 and I can definitely say that I would not have been protesting for it and I may even have been on the anti side.

I do not support the Christian hatred of the gay community. I am not for gay activist, but I do not support the Christian hatred of the gay community.

Nothing makes spray painting a church OK in my book.

I got that from your earlier post. I did not mean to insinuate that you thought spray painting a church was cool, if I did.

I remember in the event they from the looks of it told all the pro-8 people to get to one side of a street and all the anti-8 people on another. She wandered onto their side when both sides were flinging harsh words and yelling at each other.

This still does not make destroying her cardboard cross OK though.

If I may ask, who is "they" in this statement? Sorry, I'm not picking up on the use of they here.

Immie

That was supposed to be 'that'. I didn't catch the mistake, sorry.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Sinclair Lewis was prescient in stating that, "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

 

[Newby]

Not in this case. Those of us who want to keep government religiously neutral are NOT attacking religion in any way shape or form. We don't hate christians or christianity. We just won't allow them to bully us by imposing their religion on us through government.

I've asked this many, many time to many different people. Exactly what laws are imposing religion of any kind on you?

Boy, you've got some kind of reading comprehension problem, dontcha? Show me where I said there are any "laws imposing religion" on anyone. "....won't allow them to bully us" means we have stopped their attempts but those attempt ARE made.

Just what I expected, no answer. Lame. You use that as your supposed reason for opposing religion when in fact you simply oppose it and want to force your beliefs on others by doing as much as possible to curtail their freedom to religiously express themselves.

Whenever religion is being legislated and forced on you, then maybe you can open your mouth, until then you have nothing.