Separation of Church and Hate

[tigerbob]

I have no problem whatsoever if you keep your secular hatred for religion far away from my Church. I wish youd just let go of the hate though.

you don't see a difference between the first pov and the second?

Yeah. The second appears to go a lot further than I would.

 

[tigerbob]

We're not the ones doing the hating.

It cuts both ways.

Not in this case. Those of us who want to keep government religiously neutral are NOT attacking religion in any way shape or form. We don't hate christians or christianity. We just won't allow them to bully us by imposing their religion on us through government.

You're using the "we" in the sense of "all people who are like you". I'm fine with that. But not all secular opinions are as laid back as that.

 

[editec]

Speaking as some kind of Christian, I get so fucking sick of some of my fellow believers whining about how our religion is being oppressed.

What a load of fucking nonsense.

 

[HUGGY]

If the good christians would only stand up more and let their voices be heard ... then these bad ones wouldn't be what our opinions of them are formed on.

Who are these "bad ones" I keep hearing about? I never hear any names. I hear people jeering at Christians who have professed their faith and who have fallen, whether temporarily or permanently, I don't know...but I really want to hear all about specific "bad ones" and I want to hear how many there are.

Dobson. That freak argued that it keeps your son from being gay if you shower with him and show him your big dick. But maybe you find that kind of behavior "normal".

 

[tigerbob]

If the good christians would only stand up more and let their voices be heard ... then these bad ones wouldn't be what our opinions of them are formed on.

Who are these "bad ones" I keep hearing about? I never hear any names. I hear people jeering at Christians who have professed their faith and who have fallen, whether temporarily or permanently, I don't know...but I really want to hear all about specific "bad ones" and I want to hear how many there are.

Dobson. That freak argued that it keeps your son from being gay if you shower with him and show him your big dick. But maybe you find that kind of behavior "normal".

First 2 sentences quite reasonable in terms of answering the question. Last sentence completely unnecessary. Who the fuck would consider that normal?

 

[HUGGY]

Who are these "bad ones" I keep hearing about? I never hear any names. I hear people jeering at Christians who have professed their faith and who have fallen, whether temporarily or permanently, I don't know...but I really want to hear all about specific "bad ones" and I want to hear how many there are.

Dobson. That freak argued that it keeps your son from being gay if you shower with him and show him your big dick. But maybe you find that kind of behavior "normal".

First 2 sentences quite reasonable in terms of answering the question. Last sentence completely unnecessary. Who the fuck would consider that normal?

The crazy neo con fascist Focus on the Family people.

 

[Ryan]

The metaphor "separation of Church and State" cuts both ways. The British philosopher John Locke, who greatly influenced men like Thomas Jefferson, developed a principle of the "social contract" which asserts that a government lacks authority over individual conscience, while at the same time a rational people could not cede that control to the government. In other words the government can also be in violation of the "wall separation." This violation is not restricted to "right" leaning political affiliations.

If President Obama repeals the "conscience clause" that would seem to me to be a violation of the "separation of Church and State."

 

[KittenKoder]

If the good christians would only stand up more and let their voices be heard ... then these bad ones wouldn't be what our opinions of them are formed on.

Isn't the voice of reason generally drowned out by those with a more aggressive agenda?

Yep!

 

[Newby]

Good article...you might want to check out the writings of Pulitzer Prize author Chris Hedges...

Christopher Hedges was born in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, the son of a Presbyterian minister, the Rev. Thomas Hedges. He graduated from the Loomis Chaffee School in Windsor, Connecticut in 1975. He has a B.A. in English Literature from Colgate University and a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.

THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND THE RISE OF AMERICAN FASCISM

By -- CHRIS HEDGES

15 Nov 2004

Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all be fighting the "Christian fascists."

The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He was in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to consider returning to the United States . It was a suggestion he followed. He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolph Hitler placed over the contents inside his suitcase to hide the rolls of home movie film he took of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and the few individuals who defied them, including the theologians Karl Barth and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the top of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Fuhrer and closed them up again. I watched hours of the grainy black and white films as he narrated in his apartment in Cambridge.

He saw in the Christian Right, long before we did, disturbing similarities with the German Christian Church and the Nazi Party, similarities that he said would, in the event of prolonged social instability or a national crisis, see American fascists, under the guise of religion, rise to dismantle the open society. He despaired of liberals, who he said, as in Nazi Germany, mouthed silly platitudes about dialogue and inclusiveness that made them ineffectual and impotent. Liberals, he said, did not understand the power and allure of evil nor the cold reality of how the world worked. The current hand wringing by Democrats in the wake of the election, with many asking how they can reach out to a movement whose leaders brand them "demonic" and "satanic," would not have surprised Adams. Like Bonhoeffer, he did not believe that those who would fight effectively in coming times of turmoil, a fight that for him was an integral part of the Biblical message, would come from the church or the liberal, secular elite.

Chris Hedges Article

edited so link could be accessed

One would think that 'fascism' was on the 'right' side of the political spectrum if those on the left were your only source for information. I was wondering when that had ever been established?

 

[tigerbob]

Good article...you might want to check out the writings of Pulitzer Prize author Chris Hedges...

Christopher Hedges was born in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, the son of a Presbyterian minister, the Rev. Thomas Hedges. He graduated from the Loomis Chaffee School in Windsor, Connecticut in 1975. He has a B.A. in English Literature from Colgate University and a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.

THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND THE RISE OF AMERICAN FASCISM

By -- CHRIS HEDGES

15 Nov 2004

Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all be fighting the "Christian fascists."

The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He was in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to consider returning to the United States . It was a suggestion he followed. He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolph Hitler placed over the contents inside his suitcase to hide the rolls of home movie film he took of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and the few individuals who defied them, including the theologians Karl Barth and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the top of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Fuhrer and closed them up again. I watched hours of the grainy black and white films as he narrated in his apartment in Cambridge.

He saw in the Christian Right, long before we did, disturbing similarities with the German Christian Church and the Nazi Party, similarities that he said would, in the event of prolonged social instability or a national crisis, see American fascists, under the guise of religion, rise to dismantle the open society. He despaired of liberals, who he said, as in Nazi Germany, mouthed silly platitudes about dialogue and inclusiveness that made them ineffectual and impotent. Liberals, he said, did not understand the power and allure of evil nor the cold reality of how the world worked. The current hand wringing by Democrats in the wake of the election, with many asking how they can reach out to a movement whose leaders brand them "demonic" and "satanic," would not have surprised Adams. Like Bonhoeffer, he did not believe that those who would fight effectively in coming times of turmoil, a fight that for him was an integral part of the Biblical message, would come from the church or the liberal, secular elite.

Chris Hedges Article

edited so link could be accessed

One would think that 'fascism' was on the 'right' side of the political spectrum if those on the left were your only source for information. I was wondering when that had ever been established?

I always thought fascism was on the far right.

 

[Newby]

We're not the ones doing the hating.

It cuts both ways.

Not in this case. Those of us who want to keep government religiously neutral are NOT attacking religion in any way shape or form. We don't hate christians or christianity. We just won't allow them to bully us by imposing their religion on us through government.

I've asked this many, many time to many different people. Exactly what laws are imposing religion of any kind on you?

 

[Newby]

Good article...you might want to check out the writings of Pulitzer Prize author Chris Hedges...

Christopher Hedges was born in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, the son of a Presbyterian minister, the Rev. Thomas Hedges. He graduated from the Loomis Chaffee School in Windsor, Connecticut in 1975. He has a B.A. in English Literature from Colgate University and a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.

THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND THE RISE OF AMERICAN FASCISM

By -- CHRIS HEDGES

15 Nov 2004

Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all be fighting the "Christian fascists."

The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He was in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to consider returning to the United States . It was a suggestion he followed. He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolph Hitler placed over the contents inside his suitcase to hide the rolls of home movie film he took of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and the few individuals who defied them, including the theologians Karl Barth and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the top of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Fuhrer and closed them up again. I watched hours of the grainy black and white films as he narrated in his apartment in Cambridge.

He saw in the Christian Right, long before we did, disturbing similarities with the German Christian Church and the Nazi Party, similarities that he said would, in the event of prolonged social instability or a national crisis, see American fascists, under the guise of religion, rise to dismantle the open society. He despaired of liberals, who he said, as in Nazi Germany, mouthed silly platitudes about dialogue and inclusiveness that made them ineffectual and impotent. Liberals, he said, did not understand the power and allure of evil nor the cold reality of how the world worked. The current hand wringing by Democrats in the wake of the election, with many asking how they can reach out to a movement whose leaders brand them "demonic" and "satanic," would not have surprised Adams. Like Bonhoeffer, he did not believe that those who would fight effectively in coming times of turmoil, a fight that for him was an integral part of the Biblical message, would come from the church or the liberal, secular elite.

Chris Hedges Article

edited so link could be accessed

One would think that 'fascism' was on the 'right' side of the political spectrum if those on the left were your only source for information. I was wondering when that had ever been established?

I always thought fascism was on the far right.

It's been placed all over the political spectrum by various people, those on the left just like to perpetuate it when it's someone who advocates that it's on the right. How do you go from conservatism, which is about individual freedom and liberty and believes in small, non-intrusive government to fascism?

 

[KittenKoder]

Fascism is ... *gasp* fascism ... it knows no political party, and no one in the US REALLY wants it in any way. Throwing around these terms should be an insult to our country, which was built on opposition and the right, even the privilege and obligation, to disagree with each other. Without the differing views we would not have lasted as long as we have, nor would we be as far along as we had been. It wasn't until people started acting like each other while accusing the other "side" of being "fascist" or whatever the secret word of the day is that we started falling apart ...
... just my 2 cents.

 

[YWN666]

It cuts both ways.

Not in this case. Those of us who want to keep government religiously neutral are NOT attacking religion in any way shape or form. We don't hate christians or christianity. We just won't allow them to bully us by imposing their religion on us through government.

I've asked this many, many time to many different people. Exactly what laws are imposing religion of any kind on you?

Boy, you've got some kind of reading comprehension problem, dontcha? Show me where I said there are any "laws imposing religion" on anyone. "....won't allow them to bully us" means we have stopped their attempts but those attempt ARE made.

 

[Immanuel]

We're not the ones doing the hating.

I agree with whoever it was that said in this thread that it is not you who may be hating, but there are secular people who do hate Christians simply because we are Christian. I'll refer you to the protests against the supporters of Prop 8 (I think that was the number for the prop against gay marriage) in the last California election. The gay community was very vocal in their Christian hatred and has been in many prior instances as well. That doesn't mean all gays hate Christians either, just as not all Christians hate gays.

Hatred goes both ways in this battle. Clearly the Religious "right", can be hateful although I sometimes find it difficult to find Christ in many of the political leaders who claim a love of Christ, but as Christians "we" are hated... sometimes even deservedly so.

Hatred does go both ways. You might not hate Christians, but there are secular people out there who despise Christians as much as a dumb redneck member of the KKK despise black people.

Very good article by the way.

Immie

 

[KittenKoder]

We're not the ones doing the hating.

I agree with whoever it was that said in this thread that it is not you who may be hating, but there are secular people who do hate Christians simply because we are Christian. I'll refer you to the protests against the supporters of Prop 8 (I think that was the number for the prop against gay marriage) in the last California election. The gay community was very vocal in their Christian hatred and has been in many prior instances as well. That doesn't mean all gays hate Christians either, just as not all Christians hate gays.

Hatred goes both ways in this battle. Clearly the Religious "right", can be hateful although I sometimes find it difficult to find Christ in many of the political leaders who claim a love of Christ, but as Christians "we" are hated... sometimes even deservedly so.

Hatred does go both ways. You might not hate Christians, but there are secular people out there who despise Christians as much as a dumb redneck member of the KKK despise black people.

Very good article by the way.

Immie

Wow ... just wow ... serious blinders there. Do you enjoy ignoring all the protests against gay people being buried after they die as well? Protests are against something, just because the campaign to get it signed was not a protest does not make it different. The protests and the campaign to push it were both the same, just one for support the other against. That is not "hatred" in any way, that is our legal right and obligation, it's demonstrating both sides. Would you prefer all decisions be based only on the information of those who support propositions?

There are many non-christians who are not "secular" as well, you are by far not the only religion, and those who are against religion as a whole do not just attack you, this is why many have seen you as "playing the victim", because you are making it all about you and ignoring all other groups who are also involved, trying to make it all "black and white". Do you know what the rainbow is about, why gay people brought that one symbol into the civil rights movement?

 

[Yurt]

if you are going to do a discussion about this, be honest and talk about churches that promote liberal agendas...you know, like gettting obama elected. this bullshit that it is only conservative churches is old. its ok, as long as the church promotes liberal or democrat ideas and candidates.....

not a peep from you guys when obama's church was promoting him using political sermons. not a peep about the hate from sermons there....oh no, only conservatives hate.

pathetic

 

[KittenKoder]

if you are going to do a discussion about this, be honest and talk about churches that promote liberal agendas...you know, like gettting obama elected. this bullshit that it is only conservative churches is old. its ok, as long as the church promotes liberal or democrat ideas and candidates.....

not a peep from you guys when obama's church was promoting him using political sermons. not a peep about the hate from sermons there....oh no, only conservatives hate.

pathetic

I will assume you are not talking about me ... for many reasons but mostly because:

I stated many times that because of his attitude toward the hatred his own preacher was trying to spread was a good sign that Obama was not a good idea.

As for the idea that all "churches are conservative", many I know have very liberal ideals (the true liberal ideals not the wingnut ones we see in politics) and have never said otherwise.

 

[Immanuel]

Wow ... just wow ... serious blinders there. Do you enjoy ignoring all the protests against gay people being buried after they die as well? Protests are against something, just because the campaign to get it signed was not a protest does not make it different. The protests and the campaign to push it were both the same, just one for support the other against. That is not "hatred" in any way, that is our legal right and obligation, it's demonstrating both sides. Would you prefer all decisions be based only on the information of those who support propositions?

There are many non-christians who are not "secular" as well, you are by far not the only religion, and those who are against religion as a whole do not just attack you, this is why many have seen you as "playing the victim", because you are making it all about you and ignoring all other groups who are also involved, trying to make it all "black and white". Do you know what the rainbow is about, why gay people brought that one symbol into the civil rights movement?

Perhaps you are having reading comprehension problems this evening?

I said that hatred goes both ways maybe you are a bit blind yourself? Yes, that must be it. You have your own blinders on.

It was not the protests against the supporters of Prop 8 that was the problem, it was the outright assaults against them and their property that was the problem. Perhaps you missed the woman being physically assaulted by opponents of Prop 8 because she had the gall to appear in front of them with a cross?

A protest does not have to involve hatred, but the protests against people of faith by the gay community is one example of hatred against Christians. The gay community has an intense hatred for Christians. Much of it is deserved because of the intolerance that some vocal Christians display towards the community. Some people, such as yourself, in this thread seem to think that hatred only comes out of the Christian community and that people do not hate Christians simply because they are Christians. Every class of human beings suffers some form of bigotry against it. Some more than others. It is ignorant for some to claim that no one hates Christians but that Christians hate and only Christians hate.

As for people who appear at the funerals of gay people who have died, well, I must tell you that those people get no support from me. I think that is disgusting and as a Christian myself, I am offended by the actions of anyone who would do such a thing. I personally can't stand Fred Phelps... note, I do not refer to him as a reverend.

Protesting is your legal right, but the proponents and the opponents of Prop 8 weren't just protesting. There was out and out hatred on both side. And if you will try to read what I said, then you will see that I ONLY USED the hatred coming from opponents as an example of hatred against Christians. I never said that the proponents were not guilty of the same, nor did I excuse their behavior. I used the hatred of the gay community against Christians as an example of hatred against Christians. Nothing more and nothing less.

And if you will put your reading glasses on, you will clearly see that I stated without any reservation that the Religious Right is just as guilty as anyone else. No where did I say Christians were the victims here. I simply made the statement that they too can be hated.

Immie

 

[KittenKoder]

Wow ... just wow ... serious blinders there. Do you enjoy ignoring all the protests against gay people being buried after they die as well? Protests are against something, just because the campaign to get it signed was not a protest does not make it different. The protests and the campaign to push it were both the same, just one for support the other against. That is not "hatred" in any way, that is our legal right and obligation, it's demonstrating both sides. Would you prefer all decisions be based only on the information of those who support propositions?

There are many non-christians who are not "secular" as well, you are by far not the only religion, and those who are against religion as a whole do not just attack you, this is why many have seen you as "playing the victim", because you are making it all about you and ignoring all other groups who are also involved, trying to make it all "black and white". Do you know what the rainbow is about, why gay people brought that one symbol into the civil rights movement?

Perhaps you are having reading comprehension problems this evening?

I said that hatred goes both ways maybe you are a bit blind yourself? Yes, that must be it. You have your own blinders on.

It was not the protests against the supporters of Prop 8 that was the problem, it was the outright assaults against them and their property that was the problem. Perhaps you missed the woman being physically assaulted by opponents of Prop 8 because she had the gall to appear in front of them with a cross?

A protest does not have to involve hatred, but the protests against people of faith by the gay community is one example of hatred against Christians. The gay community has an intense hatred for Christians. Much of it is deserved because of the intolerance that some vocal Christians display towards the community. Some people, such as yourself, in this thread seem to think that hatred only comes out of the Christian community and that people do not hate Christians simply because they are Christians. Every class of human beings suffers some form of bigotry against it. Some more than others. It is ignorant for some to claim that no one hates Christians but that Christians hate and only Christians hate.

As for people who appear at the funerals of gay people who have died, well, I must tell you that those people get no support from me. I think that is disgusting and as a Christian myself, I am offended by the actions of anyone who would do such a thing. I personally can't stand Fred Phelps... note, I do not refer to him as a reverend.

Protesting is your legal right, but the proponents and the opponents of Prop 8 weren't just protesting. There was out and out hatred on both side. And if you will try to read what I said, then you will see that I ONLY USED the hatred coming from opponents as an example of hatred against Christians. I never said that the proponents were not guilty of the same, nor did I excuse their behavior. I used the hatred of the gay community against Christians as an example of hatred against Christians. Nothing more and nothing less.

And if you will put your reading glasses on, you will clearly see that I stated without any reservation that the Religious Right is just as guilty as anyone else. No where did I say Christians were the victims here. I simply made the statement that they too can be hated.

Immie

The fact that you think anyone who opposes a bill is showing hatred ... that is your blinder. I never saw anything about the gay protests demonstrating hate, and what I had seen was just well ... "no on prop 8" ... if that's hatred then I must hate everything.