Science, History, and Theology

[PoliticalChic]

In an earlier OP, I criticized Darwinian evolutionary theory...and one of my regular debate-partners wrote a response, as follows.

It and my response, are interesting, as they elucidate the two very different perspectives.
I hope it is interesting to all.


My pal wrote:

"Why would anyone sane wish to address that mess of shit?

Look, PC, there is not a single scientific discipline that questions the modern theory of evolution. While there are many debates over exactly the course taken by evolution, there is no arguement within scientific circles as to whether it happened.

We have had religion for millenia. It gave us wars and inquositions. We have had the scientific method for only a couple of hundred years. It has given us the method of communication that we are using. It has doubled our lifespan. It has also maddened people like yourself that wish to wave magic wands and declare yourself wise.

Very few here buying into your delusions. Not liberals, not conservatives."





1. "Why would anyone sane wish to address that mess of shit?"
In truth, if you were able to attack, shred, rebut......you would.
My posts are articulate, well constructed, and thoroughly truthful.
Watch your language....it reveals your frustration.




2. "... there is not a single scientific discipline that questions the modern theory of evolution."
Be serious.

a. "Although Darwin’s theory is often compared favorably to the great theories of mathematical physics on the grounds that evolution is as well established as gravity, very few physicists have been heard observing that gravity is as well established as evolution."
Berlinski

b. And what do you suppose is the import of this:
"According to a survey of members of the American Assn. for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center in May and June this year, a majority of scientists (51%) say they believe in God or a higher power, while 41% say they do not."
What do scientists think about religion? - Los Angeles Times





3. "...there is no arguement within scientific circles as to whether it happened."
I agree.
But....
"For many who doubt Darwin's theory, the natural 'evolution' from zygote to adult as a natural phenomenon is considered no threat to a belief in a creator. Nor is the notion of a naturally evolving solar system. Why not the idea of a skillful cosmic architect setting up a series of laws, which we call 'natural causes,' as every bit as effective as done directly via acts of agency? Louis Agassiz: "What is the great difference between supposing that God makes variable species or that He makes laws by which species vary?"
David L.Hull, "The Metaphysics of Evolution," p.69,





4. "We have had religion for millenia. It gave us wars and inquositions (sic)."

On the contrary.

Science has given far more death and destruction.
"Just who has imposed on the suffering
human race poison gas, barbed wire, high explosives, experiments in eugenics, the formula for Zyklon B, heavy artillery,
pseudo-scientific justifications for mass murder, cluster bombs,
attack submarines, napalm, inter continental ballistic missiles,
military space platforms, and nuclear weapons?"
Berlinski, "The Devil's Delusion."

a. First World War (1914–18): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 million
Russian Civil War (1917–22): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 million
Soviet Union, Stalin’s regime (1924–53): . . . . . . . . . 20 million
Second World War (1937–45): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55 million
Chinese Civil War (1945–49): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.5 million
People’s Republic of China, Mao Zedong’s
regime (1949–75): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 million
Tibet (1950 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 600,000
Congo Free State (1886–1908): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 million
Mexico (1910–20): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 million
Turkish massacres of Armenians (1915–23): . . . . . 1.5 million
China (1917–28): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 800,000
China, Nationalist era (1928–37): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.1 million
Korean War (1950–53): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.8 million
North Korea (1948 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 million
Rwanda and Burundi (1959–95): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.35 million
Second Indochina War (1960–75): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.5 million
Ethiopia (1962–92): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400,000
Nigeria (1966–70): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 million
Bangladesh (1971): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.25 million
Cambodia, Khmer Rouge (1975–78): . . . . . . . . . . . 1.65 million
Mozambique (1975–92): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 million
Afghanistan (1979–2001): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.8 million
Iran–Iraq War (1980–88): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 million
Sudan (1983 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.9 million
Kinshasa, Congo (1998 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.8 million
Philippines Insurgency (1899–1902): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 220,000
Brazil (1900 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 500,000
Amazonia (1900–1912): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250,000
Portuguese colonies (1900–1925): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 325,000
French colonies (1900–1940): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200,000
Japanese War (1904–5): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 130,000
German East Africa (1905–7): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 175,000
Libya (1911–31): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 125,000
Balkan Wars (1912–13): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
Greco–Turkish War (1919–22): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250,000
Spanish Civil War (1936–39): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 365,000
Franco Regime (1939–75): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100,000
Abyssinian Conquest (1935–41): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400,000
Finnish War (1939–40): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
Greek Civil War (1943–49): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 158,000
Yugoslavia, Tito’s regime (1944–80): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200,000
First Indochina War (1945–54): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400,000
Colombia (1946–58): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200,000
India (1947): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 500,000
Romania (1948–89): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
Burma/Myanmar (1948 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 130,000
Algeria (1954–62): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 537,000
Sudan (1955–72): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 500,000
Guatemala (1960–96): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200,000
Indonesia (1965–66): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400,000
Uganda, Idi Amin’s regime (1972–79): . . . . . . . . . . . . . 300,000
Vietnam, postwar Communist regime
(1975 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430,000
Angola (1975–2002): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 550,000
East Timor, conquest by Indonesia (1975–99): . . . . . 200,000
Lebanon (1975–90): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
Cambodian Civil War (1978–91): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 225,000
Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979–2003): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 300,000
Uganda (1979–86): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 300,000
Kurdistan (1980s, 1990s): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 300,000
Liberia (1989–97): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
Iraq (1990– ): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350,000
Bosnia and Herzegovina (1992–95): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 175,000
Somalia (1991 et seq.): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400,000
Ibid.


b. Before the Russian Revolution, the number of execution by the czarist government came to seventeen (17) per year, according to Solzhenitsyn. He pointed out that, in comparison, the Spanish Inquisition, at its height, destroyed 10 people per month.
But, during the revolutionary years 1918-1919, Lenin's Cheka executed, without trial, more than one thousand (1,000) people a month.
Stalin's purges....40,000 per month.
The Russian experience was as far from religion as one can get.




5. "We have had the scientific method for only a couple of hundred years. It has given us the method of communication that we are using. It has doubled our lifespan."

Absolutely true!

But Darwinism isn't science, it does not employ the scientific method, there have been no new species either created nor observed in the laboratory. Experiments do not verify Darwin's conclusions, nor does fossil evidence. Quite the contrary.

Rather it is based on conjecture and consensus.

As is 'global warming.'

Two scams that attempt to piggy-back on the reputation of real science.




6. "Very few here buying into your delusions."
Let's make a leap of faith, and imagine that you use words with precision, as I do.

de·lu·sion
diˈlo͞oZHən/Submit
noun
an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.


How could my views be delusions if I back every one with facts....as in #4 history above?


Perhaps you should reexamine yours?

 

[orogenicman]

Science didn't kill anyone on your list. The science is neutral. Politicians and religious extremists did that.

 

[Steven_R]

I'm willing to bet that had the technology been available during the Crusades and the Inquisitions and Muslim expansion, religious body counts would have been just as high as the Holocaust and the Great Leap Forward. Crusaders killing everyone in Jerusalem because God will know His own is no different in mentality to someone gassing dozens of Jews at a clip.

 

[Old Rocks]

PC, do you really wish me to do a little paragraph on European religious wars? Wars within the Christian Community, and the death tolls in those wars?

 

[ScienceRocks]

This has nothing to do with science. Stop being a extremist.

 

[Moonglow]

PC, do you really wish me to do a little paragraph on European religious wars? Wars within the Christian Community, and the death tolls in those wars?

Please tell us about the saintly conservatives on Saint Batholomew's day in 1572, Papist in Paris alone killed 6000 protestants in one day.

 

[editec]

PC, do you really wish me to do a little paragraph on European religious wars? Wars within the Christian Community, and the death tolls in those wars?

Please tell us about the saintly conservatives on Saint Batholomew's day in 1572, Papist in Paris alone killed 6000 protestants in one day.

Small potatoes compared to this FORGOTTEN 17th Century HOLCAUST

Emperor Matthias sought to install the fiercely Catholic Ferdinand of Styria on the Bohemian throne (which was conjoined with that of the March of Moravia), but in 1618 the Protestant Bohemian noblemen, who feared losing religious freedom (two of the Protestant churches being already forcibly closed[8]), started the Bohemian Revolt. The Revolt was defeated in 1620 in the Battle of White Mountain. As consequence the local Protestant noblemen were either executed or expelled from the country while the Habsburgs placed Catholic (and mostly German speaking) nobility into their place. The war, plague, and subsequent disruption led to a decline in the population from over 3 million to some 800,000 people

Do you fully understand what the loss of 2.2 million people meant in 1600?

The population of the entire world was about 500,000,000 people.

So in 20th century terms (in 1945 there was about 2 billion people) that 17th century HOLOCAUST was equivalent to the death of 8 MILLION people.

It was, I think the murder of about 80% of the Czech (inhabitants of Bohemia) people.

Which MIGHT explain why the CZECHS are still the most "unchurched" people (highest percentage of self identifying atheists) in the world.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, do you really wish me to do a little paragraph on European religious wars? Wars within the Christian Community, and the death tolls in those wars?

Please tell us about the saintly conservatives on Saint Batholomew's day in 1572, Papist in Paris alone killed 6000 protestants in one day.

Small potatoes compared to this FORGOTTEN 17th Century HOLCAUST

Emperor Matthias sought to install the fiercely Catholic Ferdinand of Styria on the Bohemian throne (which was conjoined with that of the March of Moravia), but in 1618 the Protestant Bohemian noblemen, who feared losing religious freedom (two of the Protestant churches being already forcibly closed[8]), started the Bohemian Revolt. The Revolt was defeated in 1620 in the Battle of White Mountain. As consequence the local Protestant noblemen were either executed or expelled from the country while the Habsburgs placed Catholic (and mostly German speaking) nobility into their place. The war, plague, and subsequent disruption led to a decline in the population from over 3 million to some 800,000 people

Do you fully understand what the loss of 2.2 million people meant in 1600?

The population of the entire world was about 500,000,000 people.

So in 20th century terms (in 1945 there was about 2 billion people) that 17th century HOLOCAUST was equivalent to the death of 8 MILLION people.

It was, I think the murder of about 80% of the Czech (inhabitants of Bohemia) people.

Which MIGHT explain why the CZECHS are still the most "unchurched" people (highest percentage of self identifying atheists) in the world.

Hey, tecy.....

...did you realize that every single genocide of the 20th century.....

...'the century of genocide'....


....was at the direction of a Big Government.



You Leftists never learn, nor admit the truth.