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and typically, you missed the pointRdean you're my hero for spouting shit.
Just trying to live up to your stellar reputation, but alas, my shit will never stink as much as yours.
...but I can dream. Till then though... have a keetom.
PS... we haven't made any movies yet dreaming of his assassination yet. Ponder that, if you are able.
You should be investigated. You are as sick as they come.
You are not part of the solution. You ARE the problem.
Some things don't deserve a point.
I remmeber how badly they panned the F-18 (which BTW was real.ly the Northrup YF-17, the plane that lost to the F-16).What makes the F-35 such an attractive option is the ASEA Radar or the AN/APG 81 which basically gives the aviator long range situational awareness and is married to a DAS system which is in effect a helmet mounted Aperture system that allows the aviator rapid information on his surroundings in the battlespace. Now having said all that, the F-35 itself is more or less an average aircraft performance wise but am speaking only on opinion here in the performance envelope vs. a F-16IN. If you really want to know an interesting story look up the history of the F-16XL which was a delta wing aircraft that General Dynamics built that achieved "super cruise" long before the F-22.
like the F-16 Fighting Falcon base model, the F-16XL was designed as a very different aircraft. The F-16XL was a conversion model development designed to study the effects of laminar airflow at supersonic speeds along with research into the causes and effects of sonic booms. Two such models were conceived with S/N 75-0749 being the single-seat aircraft and S/N 75-0747 as the twin-seat version.
General Dynamics F-16XL - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft
I am a stong advocate for giving the warfighter the best tools for the dollar. If you consider that the F-35 is an average aircraft with the exception of the SVTOL version for the UK and Marine Corps, and the fact that the F-16IN has the same features of the F-22 and the Radar of the F-35 with better performace and is 2/3rds the cost you begin to see why the DoD is often accused of spending money in an unwise manner.
I also said this story reminds me a lot of the F-111 and it's inttial thought process of "one size fits all" and how the Navys experience with that aircraft was a very bad one which led to the F-14. I thought I might post a link to that story as well. See if this sounds familier when it comes to the F-35 and it seems at least in my opinion that sometimes the DoD refuses to learn its lesson.
Variants
FB-111
EF-111A Raven
Specifications
F-111 Images
EF-111 Raven Images
Sources and Resources
The F-111 was a multipurpose tactical fighter bomber capable of supersonic speeds. The aircraft was one of the more controversial aircraft ever to fly, yet it achieved one of the safest operational records of any aircraft in USAF history and became a highly effective all-weather interdiction aircraft. As a result of a poorly thought-out development specification, both the Navy and Air Force had become committed, much against their will, to a civilian-inspired "Tactical Fighter Experimental" (TFX) program. This called for developing a single aircraft-the F-111-to fulfill a Navy fleet-defense interceptor requirement and an Air Force supersonic strike aircraft requirement. In retrospect, this was impossible to achieve, especially since planners placed priority upon the Air Force requirement, and then tried to tailor this heavy landplane to the constraints of carrier-based naval operations. The naval aircraft, the F-111B, was never placed in production. The Air Force aircraft, which was produced in a variety of models, including the F-111A, F-11D, F-11E, and F-11F, as well as an FB-111A strategic bomber version, had numerous problems, and only the F-111F actually fulfilled the original TFX design specification. This was less the fault of General Dynamics than of the civilian planners in the Pentagon whose "cost effective" inclinations ironically produced the major aeronautical fiasco of the 1960s-and a costly one at that.
Federation of American Scientists :: F-111
Now as for the F-22 itself , my contention is very simple when it comes to this aircraft, it is a PROVEN aircraft in terms of operation and what it can and cannot do. It is obvious that this aircraft is the BEST air superiority fighter aircraft in the world today. It has yet to prove itself in combat , but it's time will no dount be soon. If it even comes close to the aircraft that it was meant to replace the F-15 Eagle it will be WELL WORTH every dime spent on it. To state that Russia has achieved air superiority over the United States with the TA-50 is a big stretch , however it does show that nations like Russia and China fully intend to develop a 5th generation fighter to counter the F-22, so the argument that its a cold war relic are mute. Now having said all that, I have come to think that the F-22 having been built as a harmony platform along with the F-35 perhaps the F-35 or the F-16IN would be a good fit for the USAF , but I'm increasingly convinced that the F-15SE is a good cross over aircraft that fills the CAS roll along side the F-16IN very well when used with the F-22 and would save the nation billions upon billions of dollars as well as deliver to the warfighter airframes that pack a punch that will keep US Military Aviation at the front of air power. This is basically how I woud see it.
USAF
F-22 - Air Superiority
F-15SE- duel roll Air Superiority and CAS ( Close Air Support)
F-16IN - duel roll Close Air Support and Air Superiority
* the bottom 2 can replace existing F-15's , A-10's, and F-16's
USN
F-18 E/F Air Superiority
F-16IN CAS (Close Air Support)
EA-18 Electronic Warfare
* now you can of course replace the F-16IN with the F15SE but IMHO I think the F16 is a better fit for the mission, this accomplishes the same purpose as the F-35 as it has a common airframe between the services and allows them to taylor it to the mission at hand.
USMC
F-18 E/F Air Superiority
F-35B STVOL (Close Air Support)
* Basically the USMC is the only place where the F-35 is a real fit for the mission to relapce the AV-8B.
I remmeber how badly they panned the F-18 (which BTW was real.ly the Northrup YF-17, the plane that lost to the F-16).What makes the F-35 such an attractive option is the ASEA Radar or the AN/APG 81 which basically gives the aviator long range situational awareness and is married to a DAS system which is in effect a helmet mounted Aperture system that allows the aviator rapid information on his surroundings in the battlespace. Now having said all that, the F-35 itself is more or less an average aircraft performance wise but am speaking only on opinion here in the performance envelope vs. a F-16IN. If you really want to know an interesting story look up the history of the F-16XL which was a delta wing aircraft that General Dynamics built that achieved "super cruise" long before the F-22.
like the F-16 Fighting Falcon base model, the F-16XL was designed as a very different aircraft. The F-16XL was a conversion model development designed to study the effects of laminar airflow at supersonic speeds along with research into the causes and effects of sonic booms. Two such models were conceived with S/N 75-0749 being the single-seat aircraft and S/N 75-0747 as the twin-seat version.
General Dynamics F-16XL - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft
I am a stong advocate for giving the warfighter the best tools for the dollar. If you consider that the F-35 is an average aircraft with the exception of the SVTOL version for the UK and Marine Corps, and the fact that the F-16IN has the same features of the F-22 and the Radar of the F-35 with better performace and is 2/3rds the cost you begin to see why the DoD is often accused of spending money in an unwise manner.
I also said this story reminds me a lot of the F-111 and it's inttial thought process of "one size fits all" and how the Navys experience with that aircraft was a very bad one which led to the F-14. I thought I might post a link to that story as well. See if this sounds familier when it comes to the F-35 and it seems at least in my opinion that sometimes the DoD refuses to learn its lesson.
Variants
FB-111
EF-111A Raven
Specifications
F-111 Images
EF-111 Raven Images
Sources and Resources
The F-111 was a multipurpose tactical fighter bomber capable of supersonic speeds. The aircraft was one of the more controversial aircraft ever to fly, yet it achieved one of the safest operational records of any aircraft in USAF history and became a highly effective all-weather interdiction aircraft. As a result of a poorly thought-out development specification, both the Navy and Air Force had become committed, much against their will, to a civilian-inspired "Tactical Fighter Experimental" (TFX) program. This called for developing a single aircraft-the F-111-to fulfill a Navy fleet-defense interceptor requirement and an Air Force supersonic strike aircraft requirement. In retrospect, this was impossible to achieve, especially since planners placed priority upon the Air Force requirement, and then tried to tailor this heavy landplane to the constraints of carrier-based naval operations. The naval aircraft, the F-111B, was never placed in production. The Air Force aircraft, which was produced in a variety of models, including the F-111A, F-11D, F-11E, and F-11F, as well as an FB-111A strategic bomber version, had numerous problems, and only the F-111F actually fulfilled the original TFX design specification. This was less the fault of General Dynamics than of the civilian planners in the Pentagon whose "cost effective" inclinations ironically produced the major aeronautical fiasco of the 1960s-and a costly one at that.
Federation of American Scientists :: F-111
Now as for the F-22 itself , my contention is very simple when it comes to this aircraft, it is a PROVEN aircraft in terms of operation and what it can and cannot do. It is obvious that this aircraft is the BEST air superiority fighter aircraft in the world today. It has yet to prove itself in combat , but it's time will no dount be soon. If it even comes close to the aircraft that it was meant to replace the F-15 Eagle it will be WELL WORTH every dime spent on it. To state that Russia has achieved air superiority over the United States with the TA-50 is a big stretch , however it does show that nations like Russia and China fully intend to develop a 5th generation fighter to counter the F-22, so the argument that its a cold war relic are mute. Now having said all that, I have come to think that the F-22 having been built as a harmony platform along with the F-35 perhaps the F-35 or the F-16IN would be a good fit for the USAF , but I'm increasingly convinced that the F-15SE is a good cross over aircraft that fills the CAS roll along side the F-16IN very well when used with the F-22 and would save the nation billions upon billions of dollars as well as deliver to the warfighter airframes that pack a punch that will keep US Military Aviation at the front of air power. This is basically how I woud see it.
USAF
F-22 - Air Superiority
F-15SE- duel roll Air Superiority and CAS ( Close Air Support)
F-16IN - duel roll Close Air Support and Air Superiority
* the bottom 2 can replace existing F-15's , A-10's, and F-16's
USN
F-18 E/F Air Superiority
F-16IN CAS (Close Air Support)
EA-18 Electronic Warfare
* now you can of course replace the F-16IN with the F15SE but IMHO I think the F16 is a better fit for the mission, this accomplishes the same purpose as the F-35 as it has a common airframe between the services and allows them to taylor it to the mission at hand.
USMC
F-18 E/F Air Superiority
F-35B STVOL (Close Air Support)
* Basically the USMC is the only place where the F-35 is a real fit for the mission to relapce the AV-8B.
Y/F 17
F-18
As the years went by they kept upgrading teh F 18 until it became an outstanding weapons sytem.
The F-35 may not be a raptor, but it could turn out well.
The likelyhood of air-air combat is almost nil these days, air superiority just isn't considered important.Very different competetion and very different situation that resulted in that selection, which by the way as an Air Force competetion in which the F-16 won and the YF-17 lost. The US Navy later revised the aircraft to replace the A-6 and the A-7. The F-18 is avery good aircraft but the F/A 18 is also getting old and in need of replacement. I would not dream of putting the F-22 against the F-35 as that would be unfair. However what I am suggesting is that this one size fits all, especially on the F-35 which is a average aircraft at best and will be in several flight evelopes exceeded by aircraft that we will be exporting to other nations at less than what the F-35 costs should make the DoD take notice.
The likelyhood of air-air combat is almost nil these days, air superiority just isn't considered important.Very different competetion and very different situation that resulted in that selection, which by the way as an Air Force competetion in which the F-16 won and the YF-17 lost. The US Navy later revised the aircraft to replace the A-6 and the A-7. The F-18 is avery good aircraft but the F/A 18 is also getting old and in need of replacement. I would not dream of putting the F-22 against the F-35 as that would be unfair. However what I am suggesting is that this one size fits all, especially on the F-35 which is a average aircraft at best and will be in several flight evelopes exceeded by aircraft that we will be exporting to other nations at less than what the F-35 costs should make the DoD take notice.
Multi-role is now the new 'god' in aircraft procurment.
You mis-understand.The likelyhood of air-air combat is almost nil these days, air superiority just isn't considered important.Very different competetion and very different situation that resulted in that selection, which by the way as an Air Force competetion in which the F-16 won and the YF-17 lost. The US Navy later revised the aircraft to replace the A-6 and the A-7. The F-18 is avery good aircraft but the F/A 18 is also getting old and in need of replacement. I would not dream of putting the F-22 against the F-35 as that would be unfair. However what I am suggesting is that this one size fits all, especially on the F-35 which is a average aircraft at best and will be in several flight evelopes exceeded by aircraft that we will be exporting to other nations at less than what the F-35 costs should make the DoD take notice.
Multi-role is now the new 'god' in aircraft procurment.
You know I heard that very same thing during the development phase of the F-4 Phantom and how there was no need for a "gun" as ACM was a thing of the past. Then a few years later as our aircraft F-105's and F-4's were getting their backsides handed to them by MIGs the lightbulb went on again. As for no need for air superiority I am just going tp point out the following.
Strike Eagles conducted attacks against Serbian targets with LGBs and EOGBs in 1994 and 1995. In the spring of 1999, events reached a climax with the NATO air campaign against what was left of Yugoslavia over Serbian actions against Kosovo. Strike Eagles were heavily involved with attacks against Yugoslav forces, and F-15Cs scored four kills against MiG-29s. Captain Mike Shower and Lieutenant Colonel Cesar Rodriguez (who already had two kills against Iraqi aircraft to his name) each shot down a MiG-29 using the AMRAAM on 24 March 1999; and Captain Jeff Hwang shot down two more MiG-29s in a single engagement on 26 March, also using AMRAAM.
[2.0] F-15 In Service
This so called multi-role will do mentality will end up costing lives. I invite you to take a look a the performance of multi-role F/A18's and F-16's against German MIG-29's in Red October exercises which is a stark illustration of this. The MIG-29 is a terrible aircraft agianst the F-15 and the F-18 E/F both of which are air superiority fighter the F-15 more so, however agianst these true multi-role aircraft that lack BVR capability and good ACM capability they lose on a regular basis as was seen in combat sims with the same aircraft against the F-35 which is a 5th generation aircraft. In short while I do think the F/A 18 is an exceptional aircraft in the ground attack mode , that is mission specific mode which the aircraft should have been designated for i.e. A-18 rather than F/A 18 which it is not very good at and the same holds true for the F-35.
You mis-understand.The likelyhood of air-air combat is almost nil these days, air superiority just isn't considered important.
Multi-role is now the new 'god' in aircraft procurment.
You know I heard that very same thing during the development phase of the F-4 Phantom and how there was no need for a "gun" as ACM was a thing of the past. Then a few years later as our aircraft F-105's and F-4's were getting their backsides handed to them by MIGs the lightbulb went on again. As for no need for air superiority I am just going tp point out the following.
Strike Eagles conducted attacks against Serbian targets with LGBs and EOGBs in 1994 and 1995. In the spring of 1999, events reached a climax with the NATO air campaign against what was left of Yugoslavia over Serbian actions against Kosovo. Strike Eagles were heavily involved with attacks against Yugoslav forces, and F-15Cs scored four kills against MiG-29s. Captain Mike Shower and Lieutenant Colonel Cesar Rodriguez (who already had two kills against Iraqi aircraft to his name) each shot down a MiG-29 using the AMRAAM on 24 March 1999; and Captain Jeff Hwang shot down two more MiG-29s in a single engagement on 26 March, also using AMRAAM.
[2.0] F-15 In Service
This so called multi-role will do mentality will end up costing lives. I invite you to take a look a the performance of multi-role F/A18's and F-16's against German MIG-29's in Red October exercises which is a stark illustration of this. The MIG-29 is a terrible aircraft agianst the F-15 and the F-18 E/F both of which are air superiority fighter the F-15 more so, however agianst these true multi-role aircraft that lack BVR capability and good ACM capability they lose on a regular basis as was seen in combat sims with the same aircraft against the F-35 which is a 5th generation aircraft. In short while I do think the F/A 18 is an exceptional aircraft in the ground attack mode , that is mission specific mode which the aircraft should have been designated for i.e. A-18 rather than F/A 18 which it is not very good at and the same holds true for the F-35.
I support the Raptor.
This isn't new, this kind of argumen.
We started WWII with the P-40c, a plane inferior to almost every other power's aircrft in december of 1941.
You mis-understand.You know I heard that very same thing during the development phase of the F-4 Phantom and how there was no need for a "gun" as ACM was a thing of the past. Then a few years later as our aircraft F-105's and F-4's were getting their backsides handed to them by MIGs the lightbulb went on again. As for no need for air superiority I am just going tp point out the following.
Strike Eagles conducted attacks against Serbian targets with LGBs and EOGBs in 1994 and 1995. In the spring of 1999, events reached a climax with the NATO air campaign against what was left of Yugoslavia over Serbian actions against Kosovo. Strike Eagles were heavily involved with attacks against Yugoslav forces, and F-15Cs scored four kills against MiG-29s. Captain Mike Shower and Lieutenant Colonel Cesar Rodriguez (who already had two kills against Iraqi aircraft to his name) each shot down a MiG-29 using the AMRAAM on 24 March 1999; and Captain Jeff Hwang shot down two more MiG-29s in a single engagement on 26 March, also using AMRAAM.
[2.0] F-15 In Service
This so called multi-role will do mentality will end up costing lives. I invite you to take a look a the performance of multi-role F/A18's and F-16's against German MIG-29's in Red October exercises which is a stark illustration of this. The MIG-29 is a terrible aircraft agianst the F-15 and the F-18 E/F both of which are air superiority fighter the F-15 more so, however agianst these true multi-role aircraft that lack BVR capability and good ACM capability they lose on a regular basis as was seen in combat sims with the same aircraft against the F-35 which is a 5th generation aircraft. In short while I do think the F/A 18 is an exceptional aircraft in the ground attack mode , that is mission specific mode which the aircraft should have been designated for i.e. A-18 rather than F/A 18 which it is not very good at and the same holds true for the F-35.
I support the Raptor.
This isn't new, this kind of argumen.
We started WWII with the P-40c, a plane inferior to almost every other power's aircrft in december of 1941.
No it isnt and has raged for a long time and gerneally what ends up happening is the services end up going their own way. Where I come from on this , is really simple, being a realist the F-22 is over so there will be no more than 187 so be it. However I do think that the F-35 is NOT the best solution for the Navy or the USAF for that matter. I do feel that the F-35 is a good solution for the USMC needs to replace the AV-8B Harrier. If you look at it from a pure capabilites standpoint and cost as well the F-35 falls short in a LOT of catagories and many in the US Navy are questioning this aircraft . I have come to believe that the F-16IN which is NOT your everyday F-16 is a much better solution , in that it ofers attributes of the F-22 and the Radar of the F-35 in an aircraft that has MORE capability than the F-35 for less cost. I tend to question this big focus on stealth technology to the degree that it outwieghs other aspects of the selection process and as has been demonstrated in Kosovo stealth can be defeated and has been demonstrated by the EA-18 even the F-22's stealth can be defeated. So in aviators talk, slap some radar paint on that F-16IN and buy the sucker. LOL
You mis-understand.
I support the Raptor.
This isn't new, this kind of argumen.
We started WWII with the P-40c, a plane inferior to almost every other power's aircrft in december of 1941.
No it isnt and has raged for a long time and gerneally what ends up happening is the services end up going their own way. Where I come from on this , is really simple, being a realist the F-22 is over so there will be no more than 187 so be it. However I do think that the F-35 is NOT the best solution for the Navy or the USAF for that matter. I do feel that the F-35 is a good solution for the USMC needs to replace the AV-8B Harrier. If you look at it from a pure capabilites standpoint and cost as well the F-35 falls short in a LOT of catagories and many in the US Navy are questioning this aircraft . I have come to believe that the F-16IN which is NOT your everyday F-16 is a much better solution , in that it ofers attributes of the F-22 and the Radar of the F-35 in an aircraft that has MORE capability than the F-35 for less cost. I tend to question this big focus on stealth technology to the degree that it outwieghs other aspects of the selection process and as has been demonstrated in Kosovo stealth can be defeated and has been demonstrated by the EA-18 even the F-22's stealth can be defeated. So in aviators talk, slap some radar paint on that F-16IN and buy the sucker. LOL
Peanuts Carter tried to kill the A 10, its still flying.
The F-22 will make a comeback when the political winds shift.
Hey Navy what kind of carriers are these other countries building? Are they the "Super" Carriers that WE have and are they part of a CARRIER GROUP of highly specialized surface and submerged support vessels? I really doubt that any of them are and the only countries I really think could ever have that type of capability is China or Russia. Don't the French have small aircraft carriers that rely on stolv and helicopters?
I had another question what about the development of new armaments. Are we developing new LONGER RANGE missiles that are MORE likely to score a KILL each time one is launched? What about lighter than air AWACS systems?
Thanks for the laugh of the day!
Russian air superiority? You still trying that Cold War Bullshit? There is no country on earth that is close to what we have now....NONE! and thats with our existing airframes
I'd avoid America too. A country that is a heartbeat away from having her as President is too crazy to deal with.
We're not building F-18 Hornets, F-16 Falcons, or F-15 Eagles if that's what you're thinking. Hell, the B-52 was supposed to be gone 10 years ago, but they're still flying. Our military force is becoming like our Navy was at the start of WW2, Mothball relics and obsolete antiques.
SO of course P-BO wants to shut down their replacements. He probably dreams of the day China or Russia invade so he can quickly surrender.
Do you guys have to sit and dream up that nonsense, or does it just "pop" into your tiny and frightened heads? What a thing to say about a sitting president.
Thanks for the laugh of the day!
Russian air superiority? You still trying that Cold War Bullshit? There is no country on earth that is close to what we have now....NONE! and thats with our existing airframes
thanx RW.....so true....i was reading what a guy from Janes magazine was saying about all the latest fighters in the world......there is nothing....and he repeated....there is no plane anywhere on this planet that is in the same league with the F-22....and it should be that way for quite a while.....and this guy by the way was a German military guy....if Navy see's this thread i hope he comments he has looked into this pretty good....
YouTube - Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov
Russian Aircraft Carrier
YouTube - Rafale on the French aircraft carrier
French Aircraft Carrier
YouTube - India's Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya is being built in Russia - Part 3
Indias Aircraft Carrier
No ither nation has them hmm.. okay. will let that one pass.
