Roe v. Wade- A sensible discussion

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I always thought it should have been left to the states to decide...like it was before the SC decision. I do believe the Founding Fathers would have agreed with me on this one.

Actually not, no…

The Framers were as much opposed to tyranny by the states as the Federal government.

I'm fascinated to know how you came to the twin conclusions of 1) this is "tyranny of the state", and 2) that the Framers were worried about such a thing (or that THEY would have considered this to be "tyranny of the state", for that matter).

Tyranny occurs when the state acts in such a manner as to deny its citizens a fundamental right, in this case the right to privacy:

The present case, then, concerns a relationship lying within the zone of privacy created by several fundamental constitutional guarantees. And it concerns a law which, in forbidding the use of contraceptives, rather than regulating their manufacture or sale, seeks to achieve its goals by means having a maximum destructive impact upon that relationship. Such a law cannot stand in light of the familiar principle, so often applied by this Court, that a

governmental purpose to control or prevent activities constitutionally subject to state regulation may not be achieved by means which sweep unnecessarily broadly and thereby invade the area of protected freedoms.

NAACP v. Alabama, 377 U.S. 288, 307. Would we allow the police to search the sacred precincts of marital bedrooms for telltale signs of the use of contraceptives? The [p486] very idea is repulsive to the notions of privacy surrounding the marriage relationship.

We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights -- older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life, not causes; a harmony in living, not political faiths; a bilateral loyalty, not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a purpose as any involved in our prior decisions.

Griswold v. Connecticut

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent.
Roe v. Wade

When the state seeks to violate the right to privacy, therefore, by attempting to deny a woman access to abortion – or otherwise manifest an undue burden to that end – then the state has gone outside the bounds of its right to regulate its citizens, and has forfeited its authority to do so accordingly.

We know that the Framers were concerned about the right to privacy from the 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

To be secure in one’s person is clearly an admonition by the Framers to enact the utmost limitations on government, that however objectionable citizens may find the actions of others in the context of that right to privacy, those offended may not compel compliance of others through government means, and that other avenues must be explored to remedy the offensive activity within the bounds of privacy rights jurisprudence.

It was neither the intent nor responsibility of the Roe and Casey Courts to ‘solve’ the problem of abortion; but merely to safeguard the integrity of the Constitution and its guarantee to all citizens of the right to be free from unwarranted government involvement in their private lives.

 

[saveliberty]

The citizen foregoes a level of privacy when they ask for assistance from the state in dealing with a personal issue.

 

[spectrumc01]

An anarchy where there are no laws and individuals "decide" to do whatever they please to each other?

Yes, I believe YOU are stupid enough to think that's what the Founding Fathers were aiming for. You believe a lot of shit.

So, I suppose you and your church should decide how I live, here in the "Land of the Free" where I fought for our country, for said freedoms? How is it God gave us the freedom to choose and all religious beliefs start with limiting the freedoms God gave us. Pssst.... your christianity is showing.

In case you missed it in your insane, frothing frenzy to start attacking, "Christians!" - because obviously, the only POSSIBLE objection anyone could have to killing unborn babies is because they're some sort of whacked-out religious freak - here in the "Land of the Free" how you live, how ALL OF US live, is decided by society at large, through the mechanism of passing laws. You can blather all you want about how you "fought for the country, for our freedoms", but if you honestly thought you were fighting for a place where there were no rules and no restrictions on what you could do, then you were the biggest dumbfuck podunk goober ever suckered into uniform by a slick military recruiter, and you wasted your fucking time.

Furthermore, God gave us the free will to choose to be good or evil. He did NOT give us the free will to redefine good and evil, nor did He declare that our choices were going to be free of censure and restriction by the other human beings who have to share our living space.

And finally, you wild-eyed, spittle-flecked refugee from a psych ward, may I point out that for all your hatred of Christians and your "horror" at them "interfering" in your life, YOU are the one who brought religion into this conversation with me. I have never in my life attributed my objection to abortion to my religious beliefs. I don't even imply it. Yes, I have religious beliefs, and yes, I expect that God does object to the wholesale devaluing of human life in its beginnings, but my personal objections to the practice are based on my education in biology and medical science, and a basic morality that I would like to think I would retain whether I had religious beliefs or not. I have not always been a Christian; I HAVE always thought abortion was vile, repugnant, and barbaric.

It seems to me that, with your frantic need to rail against "Christians!", you have made it clear that abortion is a religious issue for YOU, rather than for me.

Thanks
I need that after the day I had.
Almost spit my water all over the screen.
How nice of you to give away someone elses freedom.
I'd explain it all to you... but you are just too fucking dumb to get it, and too old to see it.
But, hey thanks for the laugh. Pos rep comming.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So, I suppose you and your church should decide how I live, here in the "Land of the Free" where I fought for our country, for said freedoms? How is it God gave us the freedom to choose and all religious beliefs start with limiting the freedoms God gave us. Pssst.... your christianity is showing.

In case you missed it in your insane, frothing frenzy to start attacking, "Christians!" - because obviously, the only POSSIBLE objection anyone could have to killing unborn babies is because they're some sort of whacked-out religious freak - here in the "Land of the Free" how you live, how ALL OF US live, is decided by society at large, through the mechanism of passing laws. You can blather all you want about how you "fought for the country, for our freedoms", but if you honestly thought you were fighting for a place where there were no rules and no restrictions on what you could do, then you were the biggest dumbfuck podunk goober ever suckered into uniform by a slick military recruiter, and you wasted your fucking time.

Furthermore, God gave us the free will to choose to be good or evil. He did NOT give us the free will to redefine good and evil, nor did He declare that our choices were going to be free of censure and restriction by the other human beings who have to share our living space.

And finally, you wild-eyed, spittle-flecked refugee from a psych ward, may I point out that for all your hatred of Christians and your "horror" at them "interfering" in your life, YOU are the one who brought religion into this conversation with me. I have never in my life attributed my objection to abortion to my religious beliefs. I don't even imply it. Yes, I have religious beliefs, and yes, I expect that God does object to the wholesale devaluing of human life in its beginnings, but my personal objections to the practice are based on my education in biology and medical science, and a basic morality that I would like to think I would retain whether I had religious beliefs or not. I have not always been a Christian; I HAVE always thought abortion was vile, repugnant, and barbaric.

It seems to me that, with your frantic need to rail against "Christians!", you have made it clear that abortion is a religious issue for YOU, rather than for me.

Thanks
I need that after the day I had.
Almost spit my water all over the screen.
How nice of you to give away someone elses freedom.
I'd explain it all to you... but you are just too fucking dumb to get it, and too old to see it.
But, hey thanks for the laugh. Pos rep comming.

I didn't "give away" anything, dumb shit. I explained how things actually are. Only a leftist twit could think that speaking about reality is somehow creating a new reality.

Or perhaps you'd like to tell me how we all, in fact, DO live in an anarchy, where none of our actions are restricted or proscribed by the society around us?

"I'd explain, but you're too dumb to get it" is just another way of saying, "I really WISH I could find a coherent way to make my wishes reality, but I can't, so I'll just PRETEND they are, and hope you don't realize I'm bullshitting." Sadly for you, that won't work here.

But hey, thanks for wasting my time saying nothing whatsoever. Next time, save the pos rep and bring some substance instead.

 

[spectrumc01]

In case you missed it in your insane, frothing frenzy to start attacking, "Christians!" - because obviously, the only POSSIBLE objection anyone could have to killing unborn babies is because they're some sort of whacked-out religious freak - here in the "Land of the Free" how you live, how ALL OF US live, is decided by society at large, through the mechanism of passing laws. You can blather all you want about how you "fought for the country, for our freedoms", but if you honestly thought you were fighting for a place where there were no rules and no restrictions on what you could do, then you were the biggest dumbfuck podunk goober ever suckered into uniform by a slick military recruiter, and you wasted your fucking time.

Furthermore, God gave us the free will to choose to be good or evil. He did NOT give us the free will to redefine good and evil, nor did He declare that our choices were going to be free of censure and restriction by the other human beings who have to share our living space.

And finally, you wild-eyed, spittle-flecked refugee from a psych ward, may I point out that for all your hatred of Christians and your "horror" at them "interfering" in your life, YOU are the one who brought religion into this conversation with me. I have never in my life attributed my objection to abortion to my religious beliefs. I don't even imply it. Yes, I have religious beliefs, and yes, I expect that God does object to the wholesale devaluing of human life in its beginnings, but my personal objections to the practice are based on my education in biology and medical science, and a basic morality that I would like to think I would retain whether I had religious beliefs or not. I have not always been a Christian; I HAVE always thought abortion was vile, repugnant, and barbaric.

It seems to me that, with your frantic need to rail against "Christians!", you have made it clear that abortion is a religious issue for YOU, rather than for me.

Thanks
I need that after the day I had.
Almost spit my water all over the screen.
How nice of you to give away someone elses freedom.
I'd explain it all to you... but you are just too fucking dumb to get it, and too old to see it.
But, hey thanks for the laugh. Pos rep comming.

I didn't "give away" anything, dumb shit. I explained how things actually are. Only a leftist twit could think that speaking about reality is somehow creating a new reality.

Or perhaps you'd like to tell me how we all, in fact, DO live in an anarchy, where none of our actions are restricted or proscribed by the society around us?

"I'd explain, but you're too dumb to get it" is just another way of saying, "I really WISH I could find a coherent way to make my wishes reality, but I can't, so I'll just PRETEND they are, and hope you don't realize I'm bullshitting." Sadly for you, that won't work here.

But hey, thanks for wasting my time saying nothing whatsoever. Next time, save the pos rep and bring some substance instead.

what part of "keeping your nose in your own business" don't you get? what someone does with their body is their business not yours or mine or anyone elses. That is freedom. That is what this country was founded on. There is a reason for the fence that seperates you from your neighbor. There is a reason for the shades on your windows, and the locks on your doors. It is to keep people from snooping around in business that isn't theirs.
People who consider themselves "religious" like yourself (proof is in all your other posts), can't stand to not know what everyone else is doing so they can pass judgement. It bothers you that you have no self control, so the only way to keep yourself from doing things you consider wrong is to force everyone to live under your rules. The extreme Muslims are trying that now, people like AlQueda. The extreme Jews are doing it in Palestine. The extreme Christians are trying to do this in the US with laws to govern end of life issues and beginning of life issues and just how to live in the during those times. They don't seem to care one way or another that not everyone is Christian. No one forces anyone to have an abortion, it is a choice, and no one wants yours or mines input on the matter. Why...because it is none of our fucking business. It is their life not ours. Even your God gave the people the choice to sin. That is free will, like it or not. People like you give Christians a bad name.