Republican tax cut will not trickle down

[danielpalos]

Why not raise the minimum wage?

Why not refuse to work for minimum wage.

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.

Capital merely need circulate under Capitalism.

And, social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour, anyway.

Lowering taxes does what, specifically?

 

[danielpalos]

Democrats always oppose tax cuts, that's why I don't vote for them.

True! In spite of the fact that powerful Democrats were, not so long ago, strong proponents of tax cuts.

It didn't work then, only the right wing keeps repeating that historical mistake.

 

[danielpalos]

Why do we need corporate tax cuts?
They are doing fine without them

As you know, the market began to skyrocket (in spite of what the Progressive economic messiah Paul Krugman had to say the night of the election) in anticipation of a far more business-friendly atmosphere after Donald Trump was elected. I bought selected stocks over the month following the election. To a large degree, I had never invested in stocks previously. I've done extremely well with several stocks more than doubling in value, several over 50% and none without a respectable increase.

I want this to continue and grow us out of a portion of this debt.

The debt is still growing.

Boom and bust cycles are normal for Capitalism.

 

[The Derp]

Meh.. I’m merely an observer of business behavior. I’m intimately aware of situation in which a company was going to move their factory away if they didn’t get their tax breaks. If it had happened, consumer demand would have certainly taken a hit in the region around the plant. I think the state made a wise decision in giving them the tax incentives. To me it’s just capitalism; economic survival of the fittest.

So the "tax breaks" you referring to are local tax rates, not the federal corporate income tax rate. Communities aren't lowering the federal corporate profit tax rate to lure businesses, they're lowering tax rates on things like property taxes and other state and local taxes. So you're not much of an "observer" because you don't know the details. Instead, you do a rushed and sloppy job defending something you don't know the first thing about.

“Reducing corporate tax rates and removing special tax relief can enhance investment in various ways.
− Especially, if the primary aim is to reduce distortions that hold back the level of domestic investment and to attract foreign direct investment, reducing the corporate tax rate may be preferable to reducing personal income taxes on dividends and capital gains.”
And,
“lowering the corporate tax rate may be particularly beneficial for productivity growth of the most dynamic and innovative firms”
And then there are other recent examples of business tax breaks encouraging companies to move to certain locals:
Boeing to build its 777X in Washington
Tesla battery factory in Nevada
Foxconn factory in Wisconsin
Aetna to New York
It’s also why various cities are bending over backwards to offer Amazon special tax breaks for their “second headquarters”. Now I’m not an economist, and perhaps the current tax bill has major problems, I don’t know; but I see lots of evidence of low tax burdens giving various places a competitive economic advantage. And if a tax break caused a new factory or office to be built in my town, I do believe consumer demand would increase.

Keyword: MAY. Also, Foxconn had told other states that they were gonna build a plant, and didn't.

The tax breaks theyy're giving amazon aren't tax breaks on federal income tax.

 

[The Derp]

Tax cuts that add to the debt is simple income redistribution.

Why complain about welfare.

Why complain about tax cuts if you don’t cut spending

Tax cuts were supposed to pay for themselves or even increase revenues, which would mean there's no need to cut spending. Your tax cuts shouldn't rely on spending cuts to work.. If you're now saying that spending has to be cut in order for the tax cut "to work", then you'll need to explain how spending is preventing tax cuts from creating the growth you promised.

 

[The Derp]

Yup. A long, below par recovery.

Based on what metric? You keep jumping between metrics as argument after argument of yours crumble. Obama recovered the 8 million jobs Bush lost by 2014, then added 11.7M more.

agree that higher dividends, higher capital gains and the wealth effect will increase consumer demand.

And you believe this because it's dogma, not because it's true. We just lived through a period of 8 years that had high dividends and the wealth effect never materialized. That's because rich people don't like it when they have to pay their workers more money.

We need to be competitive.

Competitive, how? We already have record profits for corporations and high GDP. So competitive, how? Competitive in the sense that it's a competition to see who can give companies the most after-tax income. But that's competition that serves no one other than shareholders and executives. You mistakenly think competition among profit margins impacts the economy when it doesn't. And then you screech about Ireland but then ignore data from the last 3 years showing a very unstable and volatile economy that hit periods of contraction 3 quarters out of the last 12. So 25% of the time over the last three years, Ireland's economy contracted. Prior to then, Ireland's economy contracted at least 33% of the time. All this during their low corporate tax rates. That's good for business? Since when is volatility like that good for business? Since never.

It seems the more we delve into Ireland, the less well it bodes for your argument. The devil's in the details.

When our rate has remained absurdly high for the last 3 decades while every other 1st world economy has slashed their rates, we have to play catch up..

Of course, no corporation pays the actual rate so you're dishonestly parroting a Russian talking point. Furthermore, despite our "high" tax rate, corporations made record profits and the market reached record highs...so there's no demand for these tax cuts at all.

Who made any excuses? Ireland lagged for hundreds of years.....cuts their corporate rate in the 90s and by 2015, GDP per capita is 50% higher than in the UK. Not 0.5%, not 5%...50 fucking percent higher.

LOL! And now, in the late 2010's, Ireland's economy is volatile and unstable, while producing a higher unemployment rate than the UK, and GDP growth with more economic contraction than the EU. But GDP per capita increased, though really it increased among largely the top 1%, just like it did here, didn't it? Interesting how you hold that data back.

You know, GDP per capita increased in the United States during Obama too.
Let's see......
Yup, sure did!

So you just got done saying that Ireland's GDP per capita rate is an example of tax cuts working, yet the United States seems to have had a similar, if not identical growth rate in GDP per capita, that you say left the middle class behind. So if it left the middle class behind in the US, didn't it also leave the middle class behind in Ireland? I guess we won't know until you provide data that shows how much it rose for all the income groups in Ireland...and I bet you'll never post that data because it will prove my point; that Ireland's GDP-per-capita rate is reflective of the 1% enjoying the gains from the low tax rate. Just like how the GDP-per-capita here rose thanks to the gains the 1% had that skewed the totals north.

Feel free to cherry pick the data from before and after Ireland's tax cuts to show they made things worse....LOL! Silly twat.

They did make things worse. That's why I posted the GDP growth from the last 3 years. GDP growth that shows, after 20 years of low taxes, Ireland's economy is unstable and volatile, averaging at least one quarter of economic contraction per year.

Based on what metric?

Based on the weakest recovery since WWII.

View attachment 165499

Competitive, how?

Corporate tax rates.

So you just got done saying that Ireland's GDP per capita rate is an example of tax cuts working, yet the United States seems to have had a similar, if not identical growth rate in GDP per capita,

View attachment 165500
Weird, their GDP per capita is even higher than ours.

I guess we won't know until you provide data that shows how much it rose for all the income groups in Ireland...and I bet you'll never post that data because it will prove my point;

Post your data and prove your own point.

They did make things worse. That's why I posted the GDP growth from the last 3 years.

To prove they made things worse you'd have to show Ireland would be better off with the old, higher rates.

Good luck. LOL!

So just as I suspected, while Ireland's per-capita-GDP growth increased, no one outside to top income percentile actually saw any gains. So you deliberately misrepresent GDP growth numbers to make it look like Ireland's low tax rate led to prosperity for all, when it actually didn't. So Ireland's tax cuts weren't good for most of Ireland's working people, despite you saying they would be while misrepresenting (on purpose) those numbers.

So what gives? Were you just too lazy to do the work, or did you do the work and were horrified and embarrassed to find out you were wrong? In either case, you're a piece of shit. Low corporate profit taxes didn't translate to increased wages for most Irish.

One in eight workers skipping meals due to stagnant wages
The Irish News, September 7th, 2017:
"Ten years on from the crash, working families are on a financial cliff edge. Pay packets are worth less and less, but bills keep rising, and personal debt is at crisis levels.

"The government's inaction must not last. Ministers can raise wages by scrapping public sector pay restrictions, investing to create great jobs across the country, and increasing the minimum wage."

TUC research published earlier this year showed that shrinking pay packets are forcing workers to take on more personal debt.

Peter Dowd, shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said: "This is yet further devastating evidence of the consequences of seven years of the Conservatives' mismanagement of our economy which has left many people struggling to afford basic necessities."

A Treasury spokesman said: "We want to support working families and help them keep more of what they earn. That's why we are cutting taxes for 30 million people and increasing the National Living Wage, worth an extra £1,400 in people's pockets."​

As a society, we can't afford to pay Irish workers so little
The Journal, February 28th, 2014
Research carried out by Unite shows that Irish employee compensation is around 14 per cent below the average of most other EU 15 countries, and that in the last two years wage increases have been minimal compared to other European countries.


Some tidbits from that 2011 study:
 When compared to other EU-15 countries, Irish compensation falls 14 percent below average.
 When compared to other EU not in bail-out (excluding Greece and Portugal), Ireland falls 21 percent below average.
 When compared with economies with a similar structure as our own (small and open, heavily reliant on exports), Ireland falls 30 percent below average.
 Irish compensation in the main low-paid sectors (retail, hotels and restaurants) fall even further behind other EU-15 averages and is a major contributor to high levels of in-work deprivation.
 Since 2011, Irish compensation has increased at the lowest rate in the EU-15 – bar Spain (and Greece and Portugal which are engulfed in a massive wage recession).
 Irish productivity is well above the average of other EU-15 countries, even when adjusting for multi-national accounting practices.
 Irish Labour costs make up a smaller portion of operating costs than other EU-15 countries.
 After taking a hit at the beginning of the crisis, Irish profits are growing at a faster rate than profits in the Eurozone.
​

So you want to turn the US into Ireland.

 

[Papageorgio]

Why not raise the minimum wage?

Why not refuse to work for minimum wage.

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.

Capital merely need circulate under Capitalism.

And, social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour, anyway.

Lowering taxes does what, specifically?

Then don’t work for minimum wage refuse to participate. We are not obligated to take minimum wage.

 

[Papageorgio]

Tax cuts that add to the debt is simple income redistribution.

Why complain about welfare.

Why complain about tax cuts if you don’t cut spending

Tax cuts were supposed to pay for themselves or even increase revenues, which would mean there's no need to cut spending. Your tax cuts shouldn't rely on spending cuts to work.. If you're now saying that spending has to be cut in order for the tax cut "to work", then you'll need to explain how spending is preventing tax cuts from creating the growth you promised.

I didn’t promise growth. We need to cut all spending 25%. We need to cut corporate welfare by 100%. We need to trim the budget and pay down the debt.

 

[danielpalos]

Why not raise the minimum wage?

Why not refuse to work for minimum wage.

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.

Capital merely need circulate under Capitalism.

And, social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour, anyway.

Lowering taxes does what, specifically?

Then don’t work for minimum wage refuse to participate. We are not obligated to take minimum wage.

LOL.

Thanks for your support of my position regarding employment at-will in our at will employment States.

I simply refuse to work without a hiring bonus, due to my current requirements.

I should get unemployment compensation at fourteen dollars an hour, in the meantime.

 

[The Derp]

I didn’t promise growth. We need to cut all spending 25%. We need to cut corporate welfare by 100%. We need to trim the budget and pay down the debt.

Why do we need to cut spending? Are you making up that spending elsewhere? iI so, how?

 

[The Derp]

I didn’t promise growth. We need to cut all spending 25%. We need to cut corporate welfare by 100%. We need to trim the budget and pay down the debt.

So if tax cuts don't create growth, why do them?

 

[danielpalos]

I didn’t promise growth. We need to cut all spending 25%. We need to cut corporate welfare by 100%. We need to trim the budget and pay down the debt.

Why do we need to cut spending? Are you making up that spending elsewhere? iI so, how?

The right wing is all political talk and no political action.

There is no drug war clause in the republican doctrine.

 

[The Derp]

The right wing is all political talk and no political action.
There is no drug war clause in the republican doctrine.

They're morally and intellectually bankrupt. That's why they have to make captious and sophist arguments, and why the invoke unverifiable personal anecdotes that happen to confirm their bias despite running into conflict with facts and reality.

 

[The Derp]

Of course he did... All those full-time employees in manufacturing who were earning $20 and hour had to take on TWO part time McDonald's jobs to make rent... he doubled the number of jobs in some families! They made way less money and lost their health care benefits but they sure helped Obama pad his job numbers! Hooray!

So not supported by any data or facts. Part time jobs declined during President Obama's term.

 

[Papageorgio]

Why not raise the minimum wage?

Why not refuse to work for minimum wage.

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.

Capital merely need circulate under Capitalism.

And, social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour, anyway.

Lowering taxes does what, specifically?

Then don’t work for minimum wage refuse to participate. We are not obligated to take minimum wage.

LOL.

Thanks for your support of my position regarding employment at-will in our at will employment States.

I simply refuse to work without a hiring bonus, due to my current requirements.

I should get unemployment compensation at fourteen dollars an hour, in the meantime.

No you shouldn’t. You have no contract. You cannot be compensated when you are not doing anything.

 

[Papageorgio]

I didn’t promise growth. We need to cut all spending 25%. We need to cut corporate welfare by 100%. We need to trim the budget and pay down the debt.

Why do we need to cut spending? Are you making up that spending elsewhere? iI so, how?

Already said why, go back and glean for the answer.

 

[The Derp]

Already said why, go back and glean for the answer.

No, you didn't say why. You gave no economic reason for cutting spending. I think you are just dogmatically supporting tax cuts because it's your religion now, which would explain why you're impervious to facts. Talking to you about taxes is like talking to a fundamentalist about creationism. You're all wrapped up in dogma and you refuse to consider facts. Because you're a zealot. Because you've given up thinking critically.

 

[Papageorgio]

I didn’t promise growth. We need to cut all spending 25%. We need to cut corporate welfare by 100%. We need to trim the budget and pay down the debt.

Why do we need to cut spending? Are you making up that spending elsewhere? iI so, how?

The right wing is all political talk and no political action.

There is no drug war clause in the republican doctrine.

As I told you before, the drug war needs to end, you sure don’t remember much, maybe it’s the drugs you are taking.

 

[Papageorgio]

Already said why, go back and glean for the answer.

No, you didn't say why. You gave no economic reason for cutting spending. I think you are just dogmatically supporting tax cuts because it's your religion now, which would explain why you're impervious to facts. Talking to you about taxes is like talking to a fundamentalist about creationism. You're all wrapped up in dogma and you refuse to consider facts. Because you're a zealot. Because you've given up thinking critically.

I am supporting reduced budgets across the board, I am supporting lower government debt, we can’t keep spending without an effect. I’m for raising taxes if we cut the spending 2-1.

 

[danielpalos]

Why not raise the minimum wage?

Why not refuse to work for minimum wage.

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.

Capital merely need circulate under Capitalism.

And, social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour, anyway.

Lowering taxes does what, specifically?

Then don’t work for minimum wage refuse to participate. We are not obligated to take minimum wage.

LOL.

Thanks for your support of my position regarding employment at-will in our at will employment States.

I simply refuse to work without a hiring bonus, due to my current requirements.

I should get unemployment compensation at fourteen dollars an hour, in the meantime.

No you shouldn’t. You have no contract. You cannot be compensated when you are not doing anything.

Employment is at-will.

Compensation for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment is equitable under Capitalism.