Republican tax cut will not trickle down

[The Derp]

It's true, Obama's stock market help for the middle class didn't make up for his weak jobs and wage growth.

Obama created more jobs than Bush the Dumber. In fact, Obama enjoyed a streak of 75 months of consecutive job growth...which is a record. And that was back when you all predicted the exact opposite if Obamacare was passed and if Obama let the Bush Tax Cuts on the wealthy expire. Remember? Y'all said those things would kill jobs. You were wrong. Now you're saying it slowed growth even though Obama enjoyed record job growth that Trump's been unable to match this year.

You're not very good at what you do.

Who claimed it did? Where?

So then you would agree that cutting the corporate profits tax will have no effect on consumer demand? So if it's not going to affect consumer demand, why do it? Corporations expand and invest prior to their profits being taxed, so cutting the corporate rate isn't factoring into the decision to expand. So it's really just about enriching the shareholders and executives. And you misrepresent that as beneficial to the economy.

Ireland, historically poorer than the UK. So much so that millions of Irish fled to America....suddenly has a higher GDP per capita than the UK. Oddly, it appears they surpassed the UK.......wait for it.......a few years after they cut their corporate tax rate.

And here come the bevy of excuses as to why Ireland's GDP growth rate experienced more period of economic contraction than the EU, and the UK has a lower unemployment rate because...Irish people are poorer? Huh?

So great, Ireland grew their GDP per capita. But was that growth equal among all income groups? I'm guessing it wasn't, which is why you didn't post that data...because it would show incomes for the top 1% taking the lions share of the GDP growth while everyone else saw middling growth in wages. That's why you didn't post that data, isn't it? You know, GDP per capita increased in the United States during Obama too. And what was the problem with that? All the gains went to the top. How much you wanna bet that also happened in Ireland? That the GDP per capita grew because incomes for the top grew astronomically, and everyone else's incomes grew nominally, just like here.

So you did that thing again where you dishonestly push a set of cherry-picked data points and hope that I don't call you on it.

Whine to Google and the World Bank.......

So what you did was scour the internet for a set of cherry-picked data that you could frame as a positive benefit of the tax cuts that appear to have none at all. And you did that because you don't want to have to admit you're full of shit and what you believe is full of shit.

 

[The Derp]

They should increase for everybody.....like they did during the recession.
Like they do during every recession.

Like they did for the wealthy. Not for anyone else. Remember, that's one of your big talking points about how "terrible" Obama was.

 

[The Derp]

They should increase for everybody.....like they did during the recession.
Like they do during every recession.

Except that because of your policies, the middle and lower classes were in debt before and during your recession. You can't save when you're in debt. All you can do is pay down the debt, but that's not savings...that's paying down debt.

 

[Thinker101]

They should increase for everybody.....like they did during the recession.
Like they do during every recession.

Except that because of your policies, the middle and lower classes were in debt before and during your recession. You can't save when you're in debt. All you can do is pay down the debt, but that's not savings...that's paying down debt.

And as they pay down their debt they begin to save. Maybe even learning to not spend so much.

 

[The Derp]

And as they pay down their debt they begin to save. Maybe even learning to not spend so much.

But they didn't pay down their debt...that's the problem. You have to look at why they went into debt in the first place, and when you do the picture becomes clear; using their homes as an ATM to pay for the rising costs of education and health care.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's true, Obama's stock market help for the middle class didn't make up for his weak jobs and wage growth.

Obama created more jobs than Bush the Dumber. In fact, Obama enjoyed a streak of 75 months of consecutive job growth...which is a record. And that was back when you all predicted the exact opposite if Obamacare was passed and if Obama let the Bush Tax Cuts on the wealthy expire. Remember? Y'all said those things would kill jobs. You were wrong. Now you're saying it slowed growth even though Obama enjoyed record job growth that Trump's been unable to match this year.

You're not very good at what you do.

Who claimed it did? Where?

So then you would agree that cutting the corporate profits tax will have no effect on consumer demand? So if it's not going to affect consumer demand, why do it? Corporations expand and invest prior to their profits being taxed, so cutting the corporate rate isn't factoring into the decision to expand. So it's really just about enriching the shareholders and executives. And you misrepresent that as beneficial to the economy.

Ireland, historically poorer than the UK. So much so that millions of Irish fled to America....suddenly has a higher GDP per capita than the UK. Oddly, it appears they surpassed the UK.......wait for it.......a few years after they cut their corporate tax rate.

And here come the bevy of excuses as to why Ireland's GDP growth rate experienced more period of economic contraction than the EU, and the UK has a lower unemployment rate because...Irish people are poorer? Huh?

So great, Ireland grew their GDP per capita. But was that growth equal among all income groups? I'm guessing it wasn't, which is why you didn't post that data...because it would show incomes for the top 1% taking the lions share of the GDP growth while everyone else saw middling growth in wages. That's why you didn't post that data, isn't it? You know, GDP per capita increased in the United States during Obama too. And what was the problem with that? All the gains went to the top. How much you wanna bet that also happened in Ireland? That the GDP per capita grew because incomes for the top grew astronomically, and everyone else's incomes grew nominally, just like here.

So you did that thing again where you dishonestly push a set of cherry-picked data points and hope that I don't call you on it.

Whine to Google and the World Bank.......

So what you did was scour the internet for a set of cherry-picked data that you could frame as a positive benefit of the tax cuts that appear to have none at all. And you did that because you don't want to have to admit you're full of shit and what you believe is full of shit.

Obama created more jobs than Bush the Dumber.

Who said he didn't?

In fact, Obama enjoyed a streak of 75 months of consecutive job growth...which is a record.

Yup. A long, below par recovery.

So then you would agree that cutting the corporate profits tax will have no effect on consumer demand?

I agree that higher dividends, higher capital gains and the wealth effect will increase consumer demand.

So .....why do it?

We need to be competitive.
When our rate has remained absurdly high for the last 3 decades while every other 1st world economy has slashed their rates, we have to play catch up.

And here come the bevy of excuses as to why Ireland's GDP growth rate experienced more period of economic contraction than the EU,

Who made any excuses? Ireland lagged for hundreds of years.....cuts their corporate rate in the 90s and by 2015, GDP per capita is 50% higher than in the UK. Not 0.5%, not 5%...50 fucking percent higher.

If you can find the 2016 and 2017 numbers, post 'em up!!!!

You know, GDP per capita increased in the United States during Obama too.

Let's see......

file:///C:/Windows/SystemApps/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/Assets/WebNotes/WebNotesContent.htm

Yup, sure did!

So what you did was scour the internet for a set of cherry-picked data that you could frame as a positive benefit of the tax cuts that appear to have none at all.

Feel free to cherry pick the data from before and after Ireland's tax cuts to show they made things worse....LOL! Silly twat.

 

[Thinker101]

And as they pay down their debt they begin to save. Maybe even learning to not spend so much.

But they didn't pay down their debt...that's the problem. You have to look at why they went into debt in the first place, and when you do the picture becomes clear; using their homes as an ATM to pay for the rising costs of education and health care.

Really! Maybe they should cut back on the Starbucks, IPhones and BMW's.

 

[The Derp]

Yup. A long, below par recovery.

Based on what metric? You keep jumping between metrics as argument after argument of yours crumble. Obama recovered the 8 million jobs Bush lost by 2014, then added 11.7M more.

agree that higher dividends, higher capital gains and the wealth effect will increase consumer demand.

And you believe this because it's dogma, not because it's true. We just lived through a period of 8 years that had high dividends and the wealth effect never materialized. That's because rich people don't like it when they have to pay their workers more money.

We need to be competitive.

Competitive, how? We already have record profits for corporations and high GDP. So competitive, how? Competitive in the sense that it's a competition to see who can give companies the most after-tax income. But that's competition that serves no one other than shareholders and executives. You mistakenly think competition among profit margins impacts the economy when it doesn't. And then you screech about Ireland but then ignore data from the last 3 years showing a very unstable and volatile economy that hit periods of contraction 3 quarters out of the last 12. So 25% of the time over the last three years, Ireland's economy contracted. Prior to then, Ireland's economy contracted at least 33% of the time. All this during their low corporate tax rates. That's good for business? Since when is volatility like that good for business? Since never.

It seems the more we delve into Ireland, the less well it bodes for your argument. The devil's in the details.

When our rate has remained absurdly high for the last 3 decades while every other 1st world economy has slashed their rates, we have to play catch up..

Of course, no corporation pays the actual rate so you're dishonestly parroting a Russian talking point. Furthermore, despite our "high" tax rate, corporations made record profits and the market reached record highs...so there's no demand for these tax cuts at all.

Who made any excuses? Ireland lagged for hundreds of years.....cuts their corporate rate in the 90s and by 2015, GDP per capita is 50% higher than in the UK. Not 0.5%, not 5%...50 fucking percent higher.

LOL! And now, in the late 2010's, Ireland's economy is volatile and unstable, while producing a higher unemployment rate than the UK, and GDP growth with more economic contraction than the EU. But GDP per capita increased, though really it increased among largely the top 1%, just like it did here, didn't it? Interesting how you hold that data back.

You know, GDP per capita increased in the United States during Obama too.
Let's see......
Yup, sure did!

So you just got done saying that Ireland's GDP per capita rate is an example of tax cuts working, yet the United States seems to have had a similar, if not identical growth rate in GDP per capita, that you say left the middle class behind. So if it left the middle class behind in the US, didn't it also leave the middle class behind in Ireland? I guess we won't know until you provide data that shows how much it rose for all the income groups in Ireland...and I bet you'll never post that data because it will prove my point; that Ireland's GDP-per-capita rate is reflective of the 1% enjoying the gains from the low tax rate. Just like how the GDP-per-capita here rose thanks to the gains the 1% had that skewed the totals north.

Feel free to cherry pick the data from before and after Ireland's tax cuts to show they made things worse....LOL! Silly twat.

They did make things worse. That's why I posted the GDP growth from the last 3 years. GDP growth that shows, after 20 years of low taxes, Ireland's economy is unstable and volatile, averaging at least one quarter of economic contraction per year over the last three, and more than one quarter of economic contraction per year over the last 10.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yup. A long, below par recovery.

Based on what metric? You keep jumping between metrics as argument after argument of yours crumble. Obama recovered the 8 million jobs Bush lost by 2014, then added 11.7M more.

agree that higher dividends, higher capital gains and the wealth effect will increase consumer demand.

And you believe this because it's dogma, not because it's true. We just lived through a period of 8 years that had high dividends and the wealth effect never materialized. That's because rich people don't like it when they have to pay their workers more money.

We need to be competitive.

Competitive, how? We already have record profits for corporations and high GDP. So competitive, how? Competitive in the sense that it's a competition to see who can give companies the most after-tax income. But that's competition that serves no one other than shareholders and executives. You mistakenly think competition among profit margins impacts the economy when it doesn't. And then you screech about Ireland but then ignore data from the last 3 years showing a very unstable and volatile economy that hit periods of contraction 3 quarters out of the last 12. So 25% of the time over the last three years, Ireland's economy contracted. Prior to then, Ireland's economy contracted at least 33% of the time. All this during their low corporate tax rates. That's good for business? Since when is volatility like that good for business? Since never.

It seems the more we delve into Ireland, the less well it bodes for your argument. The devil's in the details.

When our rate has remained absurdly high for the last 3 decades while every other 1st world economy has slashed their rates, we have to play catch up..

Of course, no corporation pays the actual rate so you're dishonestly parroting a Russian talking point. Furthermore, despite our "high" tax rate, corporations made record profits and the market reached record highs...so there's no demand for these tax cuts at all.

Who made any excuses? Ireland lagged for hundreds of years.....cuts their corporate rate in the 90s and by 2015, GDP per capita is 50% higher than in the UK. Not 0.5%, not 5%...50 fucking percent higher.

LOL! And now, in the late 2010's, Ireland's economy is volatile and unstable, while producing a higher unemployment rate than the UK, and GDP growth with more economic contraction than the EU. But GDP per capita increased, though really it increased among largely the top 1%, just like it did here, didn't it? Interesting how you hold that data back.

You know, GDP per capita increased in the United States during Obama too.
Let's see......
Yup, sure did!

So you just got done saying that Ireland's GDP per capita rate is an example of tax cuts working, yet the United States seems to have had a similar, if not identical growth rate in GDP per capita, that you say left the middle class behind. So if it left the middle class behind in the US, didn't it also leave the middle class behind in Ireland? I guess we won't know until you provide data that shows how much it rose for all the income groups in Ireland...and I bet you'll never post that data because it will prove my point; that Ireland's GDP-per-capita rate is reflective of the 1% enjoying the gains from the low tax rate. Just like how the GDP-per-capita here rose thanks to the gains the 1% had that skewed the totals north.

Feel free to cherry pick the data from before and after Ireland's tax cuts to show they made things worse....LOL! Silly twat.

They did make things worse. That's why I posted the GDP growth from the last 3 years. GDP growth that shows, after 20 years of low taxes, Ireland's economy is unstable and volatile, averaging at least one quarter of economic contraction per year.

Based on what metric?

Based on the weakest recovery since WWII.

Competitive, how?

Corporate tax rates.

So you just got done saying that Ireland's GDP per capita rate is an example of tax cuts working, yet the United States seems to have had a similar, if not identical growth rate in GDP per capita,

Weird, their GDP per capita is even higher than ours.

I guess we won't know until you provide data that shows how much it rose for all the income groups in Ireland...and I bet you'll never post that data because it will prove my point;

Post your data and prove your own point.

They did make things worse. That's why I posted the GDP growth from the last 3 years.

To prove they made things worse you'd have to show Ireland would be better off with the old, higher rates.

Good luck. LOL!

 

[MPS777]

I’m not convinced..

Not surprising because you're a dogmatic zealot who refuses to accept facts when presented to you. Instead, you seek to preserve your fragile ego so you don't have to admit to being wrong on an anonymous message board.

If there is demand in a market, a corporation will expand there and it will expand there pre-tax, before a single cent of profit is taxed.

That's how business works. You still seem like you're trying to figure it out. It's no coincidence that Conservative economics always end up in recession.

Meh.. I’m merely an observer of business behavior. I’m intimately aware of situation in which a company was going to move their factory away if they didn’t get their tax breaks. If it had happened, consumer demand would have certainly taken a hit in the region around the plant. I think the state made a wise decision in giving them the tax incentives. To me it’s just capitalism; economic survival of the fittest.

Anyway, here are some excerpts about corporate taxes from a recent OECD study: Taxation and Economic Growth - Papers - OECD iLibrary
“Reducing corporate tax rates and removing special tax relief can enhance investment in various ways.
− Especially, if the primary aim is to reduce distortions that hold back the level of domestic investment and to attract foreign direct investment, reducing the corporate tax rate may be preferable to reducing personal income taxes on dividends and capital gains.”
And,
“lowering the corporate tax rate may be particularly beneficial for productivity growth of the most dynamic and innovative firms”
And then there are other recent examples of business tax breaks encouraging companies to move to certain locals:
Boeing to build its 777X in Washington
Tesla battery factory in Nevada
Foxconn factory in Wisconsin
Aetna to New York
It’s also why various cities are bending over backwards to offer Amazon special tax breaks for their “second headquarters”. Now I’m not an economist, and perhaps the current tax bill has major problems, I don’t know; but I see lots of evidence of low tax burdens giving various places a competitive economic advantage. And if a tax break caused a new factory or office to be built in my town, I do believe consumer demand would increase.

 

[danielpalos]

Corporate profit taxes have no bearing on consumer demand

Consumer demand rises when consumers have more available expendable income. Like, when they get more money on their paychecks because we lowered their taxes!

Corporate tax rates are not Individual tax rates. It could be a fallacy of false cause.

 

[danielpalos]

If you tell your boss to cut your salary from $500 a week to $100 a week, you would end up with a deficit. That's what you're arguing for when you argue for tax cuts.

No, because a tax cut will produce MORE revenues, as it always has.

You are the wife maxing out the credit cards and claiming her husband's increased revenue (pay raise) is the reason for the family debt.

Any addition to the debt is simple income redistribution.

 

[Spoonman]

The Republican tax cuts won't trickle down, CEO writes in scathing op-ed

It's not a surprise to Todd Carmichael, co-founder and CEO of La Colombe Coffee Roasters in Philadelphia.

"I can tell you what no other CEO wants to tell you," Carmichael writes in an op-ed in The Philadelphia Inquirer: "A half-trillion dollars of corporate tax giveaways proposed by the GOP aren't going to do a thing for the middle class, or create a single job. Because what every CEO knows but won't tell you is this: A tax break for their company simply means a fatter bottom line. Not jobs. Not investment." CEOs have "a powerful fiduciary duty to return all profits to shareholders — not to the employees, or the suppliers, or the community and certainly not to the unemployed or left behind," he explained. "Profit goes to shareholders (and the CEO) and not to the employees."


Just like when we cut taxes before. Cut taxes on the wealthy........and they just keep it

nothing Obama did stimulated the economy or added to the wealth of the middle class. the gap between the rich and poor mushroomed under obama's policies.

 

[Muhammed]

What makes it a bad tax bill is that its set up so that the cuts for the rich are forever, for the rest of us they faze out by 2027

Why don't you want a tax cut, jackass?

 

[Muhammed]

It's a good thing for all that the left are a bunch of liars every day all the time. that means that everything they say is wrong and this will trickle down and the economy will continue to improve. History has shown this to be true.

Time to celebrate!

History has shown that corporations and the wealthy just keep the money

Bullshit.

 

[danielpalos]

The Republican tax cuts won't trickle down, CEO writes in scathing op-ed

It's not a surprise to Todd Carmichael, co-founder and CEO of La Colombe Coffee Roasters in Philadelphia.

"I can tell you what no other CEO wants to tell you," Carmichael writes in an op-ed in The Philadelphia Inquirer: "A half-trillion dollars of corporate tax giveaways proposed by the GOP aren't going to do a thing for the middle class, or create a single job. Because what every CEO knows but won't tell you is this: A tax break for their company simply means a fatter bottom line. Not jobs. Not investment." CEOs have "a powerful fiduciary duty to return all profits to shareholders — not to the employees, or the suppliers, or the community and certainly not to the unemployed or left behind," he explained. "Profit goes to shareholders (and the CEO) and not to the employees."


Just like when we cut taxes before. Cut taxes on the wealthy........and they just keep it

nothing Obama did stimulated the economy or added to the wealth of the middle class. the gap between the rich and poor mushroomed under obama's policies.

Source?

 

[Spare_change]

What makes it a bad tax bill is that its set up so that the cuts for the rich are forever, for the rest of us they faze out by 2027

What absolute nonsense ....

Have you bothered to research just exactly WHY the individual tax cuts have sunset clauses?

No, I guess you haven't.

Well, I'm going to tell you ... and you're going to apologize for such a stupid comment.

Corporate tax cuts can be passed (permanently) with 51 votes whereas changes to individual tax changes would require 60+ votes. Given the Democrats' absolute opposition to any tax cuts, (because of the political implications of a successful tax cut), it would be virtually impossible to get any tax reform passed.

Republicans propose to avoid this quagmire by making the individual tax reform a limited time frame, with the intent of either 1) renewing it at the appropriate time, or 2) making the tax cuts permanent when the party split is more favorable.

You can apologize now.

 

[Brain357]

So it is already December 11th. Are the Republicans really going to pass anything? Seems like our government took the year off with full pay.

 

[Spare_change]

So it is already December 11th. Are the Republicans really going to pass anything? Seems like our government took the year off with full pay.

Stupid is as stupid says.

 

[Brain357]

So it is already December 11th. Are the Republicans really going to pass anything? Seems like our government took the year off with full pay.

Stupid is as stupid says.

So you don't think they will do anything this year either eh?