Repeal & Replace petition 81,000 signatures

[dblack]

I think I do. Instead, I think that you, and frankly much of the nation, are taken with the delusion that health insurance can double as a social safety net. But it won't work.

The entire point of health insurance is a safety net.

Wrong again. Insurance is a hedge against financial risk. It's not meant to take of the poor or the chronically ill. It's a stupid model for providing that service.

Unfortunately, when it comes to health care, we've tried to turn insurance into a social safety net, and it's been a disaster.

Of course it is. What kind of koolaid are you drinking?

How, then? All health insurance administrators do is move money from the premium pool you've already paid into, to your provider. That's it. That is the process you don't want to see socialized because...because...that amounts to control, somehow, though you haven't really said how.

Those "administering" the payment for health care services will decide which health care services are eligible for coverage and how much they will pay for them - especially in the case of single payer, where government will virtually set prices for doctors' services. Beyond that, as health care becomes more and more a government responsibility, people will push for more and more laws banning behavior that they can claim is a health risk. It's already happening.

When we dip into real fascism, you'll know it. You'll shit yourself and regret, deeply, supporting the bastards who take over.

We already live in a fascist state. Trump is a fascist.

Trump is a sleazy used-car salesman (with apologies to decent used-car salesmen). He definitely has fascist aspirations, and the sooner we run him out office the better. But you're naive in the extreme if you think what we're currently going through is real fascism. Our government simply isn't well positioned for that. Once they get control of health care, and whatever else we're willing to give up, they'll have much more power to create the fascist state of your dreams.

In a free market those costs are absorbed voluntarily, by whatever benefactors are willing to front the money - and if the patient can't raise enough money to save their lives, yes, they could die. In fact, it's a 100% certainty that each of us will face that end.

So your health care plan is; Don't get sick.

No. Here's my health care plan: "None of your fucking business!" I'm not demanding that anyone take care of me or give me money when I'm broke. So piss off with your guilty-until-proven-innocent propaganda.

 

[The Derp]

Simply not true. Your binary worldview is delusional.

But you are a moocher if you don't have insurance and incur high medical costs that you either get discounted, or just don't pay. Everyone else picks up the slack by way of higher premiums. Every dollar of health care has to be paid for. Nothing just vanishes into thin air.

It's none of your business. That's not a smart-answer. Take it literally.

But it is my business because my premiums are affected by it.

You don't know what 'subjective' means, do you?

So, cost isn't subjective. It's an actual dollar amount. So if single payer results in you spending less for health care, that's objectively benefiting you. Likewise, if you even have health care that also objectively benefits you. You can't look at your insurance bill and say the premium is subjective, can you? The premium is a dollar amount. Where's the subjectivity in that?

 

[dblack]

Simply not true. Your binary worldview is delusional.

But you are a moocher if you don't have insurance and incur high medical costs that you either get discounted, or just don't pay. Everyone else picks up the slack by way of higher premiums. Every dollar of health care has to be paid for. Nothing just vanishes into thin air.

If

It's none of your business. That's not a smart-answer. Take it literally.

But it is my business because my premiums are affected by it.

Your premiums aren't my responsibility. So, no. It's not any of your business.

You don't know what 'subjective' means, do you?

So, cost isn't subjective. It's an actual dollar amount. So if single payer results in you spending less for health care, that's objectively benefiting you. Likewise, if you even have health care that also objectively benefits you. You can't look at your insurance bill and say the premium is subjective, can you? The premium is a dollar amount. Where's the subjectivity in that?

The subjectivity is in how we evaluate 'benefit'. I find freedom more beneficial than BS promises from statists who really just want control.

 

[The Derp]

Wrong again. Insurance is a hedge against financial risk. It's not meant to take of the poor or the chronically ill. It's a stupid model for providing that service.

Ummm...no. You seem pretty confused on the purpose of insurance. A hedge against financial risk because of what? Health care needs. So it falls entirely within the realm of caring for the poor and/or chronically ill. You're saying poor people and chronically ill people shouldn't have health insurance at all? Then what's the point? Yeesh.

Unfortunately, when it comes to health care, we've tried to turn insurance into a social safety net, and it's been a disaster.

The very premise of insurance is a safety net, as you said above it's a hedge against financial risk. Financial risk of what? Health care costs. This is what I mean when I say you guys don't know what you're talking about. We end up going in circles because you don't know what you're saying.

Those "administering" the payment for health care services will decide which health care services are eligible for coverage and how much they will pay for them

WHICH ALREADY HAPPENS. Only instead of government, which can be held accountable to voters, the determination is made in corporate offices and board rooms, which are not accountable to voters. And it doesn't matter what insurance company you have, they all have that commonality. If you want to have more control over health care, putting it in the hands of private interests who aren't accountable to you is the exact opposite of what you say you want. You get that, right? These insurance companies already restrict you by way of which providers you can see. They already restrict you by way of what drugs you can be prescribed. They already restrict you by way of what procedures they cover, putting their bottom line ahead of your needs. If the bottom line isn't something the entity has to worry about, wouldn't that mean your options increase, not decrease?

- especially in the case of single payer, where government will virtually set prices for doctors' services. Beyond that, as health care becomes more and more a government responsibility, people will push for more and more laws banning behavior that they can claim is a health risk. It's already happening.

Yes, they will set reimbursements for doctor's services, just like insurance companies and Medicare do now. Only, instead of myriad insurers who are played off one another in order to achieve higher costs (drugs, in particular), there is a single insurer and a level playing field which forces providers to compete for your care. And how do they do that? By improving outcomes and lowering costs. Something that currently does not happen at all. If the government sets the reimbursement rate for X procedure, that's for all providers. So all providers are reimbursed the same amount for that procedure. So the competition comes in where those providers must then improve outcomes or reduce costs in order to attract patients and, you know, make money.

Trump is a sleazy used-car salesman (with apologies to decent used-car salesmen). He definitely has fascist aspirations, and the sooner we run him out office the better. But you're naive in the extreme if you think what we're currently going through is real fascism. Our government simply isn't well positioned for that. Once they get control of health care, and whatever else we're willing to give up, they'll have much more power to create the fascist state of your dreams.

So Trump having foreign dignitaries stay at his hotels, and profiting off those stays, isn't fascism? Then what is it?

No. Here's my health care plan: "None of your fucking business!" I'm not demanding that anyone take care of me or give me money when I'm broke. So piss off with your guilty-until-proven-innocent propaganda.

But it is my fucking business because my premiums are affected by you not having insurance. Why after 7 years you guys haven't been able to figure that out, is beyond me.

 

[The Derp]

If

OK, and...? Yes, if you have no insurance and incur high medical costs you can't pay, what do you think happens to those costs? I seriously want to know, what do you think happens to the cost if the patient cannot pay and has no insurance?

Your premiums aren't my responsibility. So, no. It's not any of your business.

They are, because you going without insurance directly affects my premiums when you start incurring costs you cannot pay. A single hospital visit for appendicitis costs, on average, $33,000. How many folks have that much lying around? Not many. Certainly not many in the middle class because they're already in debt thanks to Bush the Dumber. So it is my business if you don't have insurance because you are costing me more despite me taking personal responsibility while you mooch like a parasite.

The subjectivity is in how we evaluate 'benefit'. I find freedom more beneficial than BS promises from statists who really just want control.

So...OK...if you want to move the goalposts, fine. Be my guest. I'm going back to the objectivity of spending less for the same thing you already have. No one wants control over your health care. I can guarantee you that. No one is sitting around thinking of ways they can control your healthcare, personally. The only people plotting around your health care are the insurers who try to pay as little as they can toward your health, from your premiums, in order to achieve corporate profit margins.

So they, and you, support a system that puts corporate profits ahead of patient needs. That's the sum total of what you believe, whether you realize it or not.

 

[debbiedowner]

Well straight repeal didn't work, Trumps orange hair has to be on fire by now lol.

Senate rejects plan to repeal Obama health law and leave replacement for later

 

[dblack]

Wrong again. Insurance is a hedge against financial risk. It's not meant to take of the poor or the chronically ill. It's a stupid model for providing that service.

Ummm...no. You seem pretty confused on the purpose of insurance. A hedge against financial risk because of what? Health care needs. So it falls entirely within the realm of caring for the poor and/or chronically ill. You're saying poor people and chronically ill people shouldn't have health insurance at all? Then what's the point? Yeesh.

Unfortunately, when it comes to health care, we've tried to turn insurance into a social safety net, and it's been a disaster.

The very premise of insurance is a safety net, as you said above it's a hedge against financial risk. Financial risk of what? Health care costs. This is what I mean when I say you guys don't know what you're talking about. We end up going in circles because you don't know what you're saying.

Insurance isn't a means of taking care of the poor: Car insurance can't provide poor people with transportation. Home owner's insurance can't give poor people housing. And health insurance can't provide poor people with health care.

Those "administering" the payment for health care services will decide which health care services are eligible for coverage and how much they will pay for them

WHICH ALREADY HAPPENS. Only instead of government, which can be held accountable to voters, the determination is made in corporate offices and board rooms, which are not accountable to voters.

Yeah. If Trump cuts health care and kills Aunt Martha, I can get my revenge by not voting for him in four years. ...

And it doesn't matter what insurance company you have, they all have that commonality.

If you can't find an insurance company you like, don't buy insurance.

Trump is a sleazy used-car salesman (with apologies to decent used-car salesmen). He definitely has fascist aspirations, and the sooner we run him out office the better. But you're naive in the extreme if you think what we're currently going through is real fascism. Our government simply isn't well positioned for that. Once they get control of health care, and whatever else we're willing to give up, they'll have much more power to create the fascist state of your dreams.

So Trump having foreign dignitaries stay at his hotels, and profiting off those stays, isn't fascism? Then what is it?

Run-of-the-mill corruption, committed by a dimwitted narcissist.

 

[dblack]

If

OK, and...? Yes, if you have no insurance and incur high medical costs you can't pay, what do you think happens to those costs? I seriously want to know, what do you think happens to the cost if the patient cannot pay and has no insurance?

Get this through your head: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for.

Again, for emphasis: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for.

IF I ever do that, do whatever you like. Fine me, arrest me, shoot me in the head. Whatever you think is 'humane'. Of course the best approach is probably to just not let me run up health care costs I can't pay for in the first place. But I guess that's too obvious.

Your premiums aren't my responsibility. So, no. It's not any of your business.

They are, because you going without insurance directly affects my premiums when you start incurring costs you cannot pay.

One more time: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for.

The subjectivity is in how we evaluate 'benefit'. I find freedom more beneficial than BS promises from statists who really just want control.

So...OK...if you want to move the goalposts, fine. Be my guest.

Nothing's moved. I'm trying to get it through your head that honest people have different values, different priorities. Our Quixotic delusions regarding health insurance don't justify forcing the same nonsense on everyone.

 

[The Derp]

Insurance isn't a means of taking care of the poor: Car insurance can't provide poor people with transportation.

A car isn't a necessity. Health care is. You don't necessarily need a car, but you do need health care. You get that, right?

Home owner's insurance can't give poor people housing. And health insurance can't provide poor people with health care.

Because, as I've said many times, that isn't what health insurance is! You still don't seem to know what it is, which is strange. Health insurance is a hedge on the financial risk of the costs of health care. It's the mechanism by which your provider is reimbursed for your care, after they perform it. You guys still don't know what health insurance is. You conflate it with health care delivery.

Yeah. If Trump cuts health care and kills Aunt Martha, I can get my revenge by not voting for him in four years. ...

Which is why you shouldn't vote Conservative ever. But even so, you have no accountability whatsoever with private insurers because they all have that commonality.

If you can't find an insurance company you like, don't buy insurance.

But you need it in the event you incur high medical costs you can't pay. Why are you ignoring that? And I have news for you...paying cash doesn't mean you're getting a deal. The price of health care is determined by your provider's chargemaster who colludes with insurance companies to make it look like you're getting a discount when you actually aren't. They do this for no other reason than to preserve corporate profits. So they are putting their bottom line above your health needs.

Run-of-the-mill corruption, committed by a dimwitted narcissist.

No, it's fascism. He is using his position in the state to profit. That's what fascism is, dude.

 

[The Derp]

I think I do. Instead, I think that you, and frankly much of the nation, are taken with the delusion that health insurance can double as a social safety net. But it won't work.

Health insurance is a safety net because it hedges the financial risk of health care. Jesus Christ, you people don't know anything. How is that possible?

 

[The Derp]

Get this through your head: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for. IF I ever do that, do whatever you like. Fine me, arrest me, shoot me in the head. Whatever you think is 'humane'. Of course the best approach is probably to just not let me run up health care costs I can't pay for in the first place. But I guess that's too obvious.

So we all know that you believe if you get cancer and can't afford the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs to treat cancer, you should just die and decrease the surplus population, right?

One more time: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for.

So your position on health care is; don't get sick and if you do get sick, die quickly.

Nothing's moved. I'm trying to get it through your head that honest people have different values, different priorities. Our Quixotic delusions regarding health insurance don't justify forcing the same nonsense on everyone.

And you've made it clear your values are that if you get sick you should just die, regardless if it's treatable.

 

[dblack]

I think I do. Instead, I think that you, and frankly much of the nation, are taken with the delusion that health insurance can double as a social safety net. But it won't work.

Health insurance is a safety net because it hedges the financial risk of health care. Jesus Christ, you people don't know anything. How is that possible?

It's not a social safety net. You keep leaving out the 'social' part. Why's that?

 

[dblack]

Get this through your head: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for. IF I ever do that, do whatever you like. Fine me, arrest me, shoot me in the head. Whatever you think is 'humane'. Of course the best approach is probably to just not let me run up health care costs I can't pay for in the first place. But I guess that's too obvious.

So we all know that you believe if you get cancer and can't afford the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs to treat cancer, you should just die and decrease the surplus population, right?

Exactly.

One more time: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for.

So your position on health care is; don't get sick and if you do get sick, die quickly.

No, my position is that an individual's health care isn't the property of the state.

 

[dblack]

Insurance isn't a means of taking care of the poor: Car insurance can't provide poor people with transportation. Home owner's insurance can't give poor people housing. And health insurance can't provide poor people with health care.

A car isn't a necessity. Health care is. You don't necessarily need a car, but you do need health care. You get that, right?

So what? We're talking about the nature of insurance. Insurance is a dumb way to provide necessities.

If you can't find an insurance company you like, don't buy insurance.

But you need it in the event you incur high medical costs you can't pay. Why are you ignoring that?

Because I'm not going to incur high medical costs I can't pay. Why are you ignoring that? Do I have to cut and paste again?

Run-of-the-mill corruption, committed by a dimwitted narcissist.

No, it's fascism. He is using his position in the state to profit. That's what fascism is, dude.

??? What dictionary are using? (get a refund!)

 

[dblack]

One more time: I don't think I should be allowed to run up health care costs I can't pay for.

So your position on health care is; don't get sick and if you do get sick, die quickly.

No, that's just your silly strawman.

Nothing's moved. I'm trying to get it through your head that honest people have different values, different priorities. Our Quixotic delusions regarding health insurance don't justify forcing the same nonsense on everyone.

And you've made it clear your values are that if you get sick you should just die, regardless if it's treatable.

Yawn... another dumb strawman. You need to check with your handler and brush up on your propaganda techniques.

 

[The Derp]

So we all know that you believe if you get cancer and can't afford the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs to treat cancer, you should just die and decrease the surplus population, right?

Exactly.

And would that principle apply to you as well? Like, if you were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, you wouldn't seek any treatment because it would be too expensive, so you'd put yourself through suffering and then die? I find that hard to believe.

No, my position is that an individual's health care isn't the property of the state.

No one is arguing it is. You are creating a straw-man because you have no cogent argument.

 

[The Derp]

It's not a social safety net. You keep leaving out the 'social' part. Why's that?

Yes, it IS! You are socializing the risk when you pay into an insurance pool. This is exactly what I mean when I say you people don't know what health insurance actually is.

 

[The Derp]

So what? We're talking about the nature of insurance. Insurance is a dumb way to provide necessities.

No, it's a smart way because the average patient cannot afford the costs to treat a major medical condition. Insurance is a socialized hedge against the risk of the costs associated with health care because you have people socializing their premiums together into a risk pool. I seriously cannot make it any simpler than that. I think at this point, you're just being a contrarian because you know your argument is bullshit and would be thrown right out the window if your personal health was at stake. You expect me to believe that if you had a treatable form of cancer, yet that treatment was more than you could afford, you'd be content to suffer and die? Yeah-fucking-right. Who buys your bullshit? Do you even buy it?

Because I'm not going to incur high medical costs I can't pay.

BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT! You don't know what your health needs are going to be 24 hours from now, 24 days from now, 24 weeks from now, 24 months from now, 24 years from now. So you hedge that risk with other people and in the event the risk becomes a reality, you're insured for it so you don't go bankrupt or go without treatment. And letting a health care condition go untreated has tons of liabilities to it, not just for you but for others. But that's the thing...you don't think about other people because you lack empathy. Which would make you a sociopath at best.

??? What dictionary are using? (get a refund!)

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

"control of industry and commerce" would be using his own personal hotels to host foreign dignitaries. He even puts his own fucking name on the buildings. He may as well commission paintings of himself on the side of buildings like Saddam did.

 

[The Derp]

No, that's just your silly strawman.

WTF? When I said your position was that if you cannot afford care you should just die and decrease the surplus population, your response was "exactly". So what gives? Are you schizophrenic? Multiple personality disorder? Or did you just forget you said it?

And you've made it clear your values are that if you get sick you should just die, regardless if it's treatable. Yawn... another dumb strawman. You need to check with your handler and brush up on your propaganda techniques.

But that is precisely what you said. You even did the duty to quote it. Yeesh.

 

[dblack]

No, that's just your silly strawman.

WTF? When I said your position was that if you cannot afford care you should just die and decrease the surplus population, your response was "exactly". So what gives? Are you schizophrenic? Multiple personality disorder? Or did you just forget you said it?

And another... you really can't help yourself, can you? I was responding to this claim of yours:

And you've made it clear your values are that if you get sick you should just die, regardless if it's treatable.

Which isn't, at all, what I said.

And you've made it clear your values are that if you get sick you should just die, regardless if it's treatable. Yawn... another dumb strawman. You need to check with your handler and brush up on your propaganda techniques.

But that is precisely what you said. You even did the duty to quote it. Yeesh.

Quote it, or STFU.