Remember When Democrats Used To Support Religious Freedom?

[jillian]

Frankly I'm getting a little tired of your dishonesty Stephanie. You know damn well that Clinton never meant for that law to apply to Republicans. (any more than laws against sexual assault were meant to apply to Clinton) (or transparency laws were meant to apply to Other-Clinton)

It's well past time for you to get on the "Celebrate Conformity" train with our moral and intelectual betters on the Left. If you don't they will come for your job next!

National Review

"Bob Hope, touring the world in the year or so after the passage of the 1975 Consenting Adult Sex Bill:

“I’ve just flown in from California, where they’ve made homosexuality legal. I thought I’d get out before they make it compulsory.”

For Hope, this was an oddly profound gag, discerning even at the dawn of the Age of Tolerance that there was something inherently coercive about the enterprise. Soon it would be insufficient merely to be “tolerant” — warily accepting, blithely indifferent, mildly amused, tepidly supportive, according to taste. The forces of “tolerance” would become intolerant of anything less than full-blown celebratory approval."

Celebrate Conformity SteynOnline

"...free speech was certainly a right, but it was merely one in a whole range of competing rights - such as "equality" and "diversity" - that needed to be "balanced". What the "balancing" boils down to is that you get fired if you are an apostate from the new progressive groupthink."

sexual assault? what are you talking about?

Eileen Wellstone, a 19-year-old English woman, said Clinton sexually assaulted her after she met him at a pub near the Oxford where Clinton was a student in 1969. In fact, Clinton was expelled from Oxford and earned no degree there.

Juanita Broaddrick, a volunteer in Clinton’s gubernatorial campaign, said he raped her in 1978. Mrs. Broaddrick suffered a bruised and torn lip, which she said she suffered when Clinton bit her during the rape. Broaddrick gave a stunning interview to NBC’s Lisa Myers about the assault.

Carolyn Moffet, a legal secretary in Little Rock in 1979, said she met Gov. Clinton at a political fundraiser and was invited to his hotel room. “When I went in, he was sitting on a couch, wearing only an undershirt. He pointed at his penis and told me to suck it. I told him I didn’t even do that for my boyfriend and he got mad, grabbed my head and shoved it into his lap. I pulled away from him and ran out of the room,” she said.

Elizabeth Ward Gracen, the Miss Arkansas who won the Miss America crown in 1982, told friends she was forced by Clinton to have sex with him shortly after she won her state title. Gracen later told an interviewer that sex with Clinton was consensual. Her roommate Judy Stokes has said the ex-Miss Arkansas told her she was raped after the incident.

Paula Corbin Jones, an Arkansas state worker, filed a sexual harassment case against Clinton after an encounter in a Little Rock hotel room where the then-governor exposed himself and demanded oral sex. Clinton settled the case with Jones with an $850,000 payment.

Sandra Allen James, a former Washington, D.C., political fundraiser, said Clinton invited her to his hotel room during a political trip to the nation’s capital in 1991, pinned her against the wall and stuck his hand up her dress. She fled.

Christy Zercher, a flight attendant on Clinton’s leased campaign plane in 1992, says presidential candidate Clinton exposed himself, grabbed her breasts and made explicit remarks about oral sex. Zercher said later in an interview that White House attorney Bruce Lindsey tried to pressure her into not going public about the assault.

Kathleen Willey, a White House volunteer, said that Clinton grabbed her, fondled her breast and pressed her hand against his genitals during an Oval Office meeting in November 1993. Willey became a target for a Hillary directed smear campaign after she went public.

Why Hillary Is Not Inevitable Bill s Sordid Past The Daily Caller
Is Juanita Broaddrick Telling the Truth
Bill Clinton has the real rape problem
Bill Clinton s ong history of sexual assault
Hillary s War on Women

Clinton s list of ignored accusers - Illinois Review

• Juanita Broaddrick (AR)- rape
• Eileen Wellstone (Oxford) - rape
• Elizabeth Ward Gracen - rape - quid pro quo, post incident intimidation
• Regina Hopper Blakely - "forced himself on her, biting, bruising her"
• Kathleen Willey (WH) - sexual assault, intimidations, threats
• Sandra Allen James (DC) - sexual assault
• 22 Year Old 1972 (Yale) - sexual assault
• Kathy Bradshaw (AK) - sexual assault
• Cristy Zercher - unwelcomed sexual advance, intimidations

• Paula Jones (AR) - unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• Carolyn Moffet -unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• 1974 student at University of Arkansas - unwelcomed physical contact
• 1978-1980 - seven complaints per Arkansas state troopers
• Monica Lewinsky - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Gennifer Flowers - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Dolly Kyle Browning - post incident character assault
• Sally Perdue - post incident threats
• Betty Dalton - rebuffed his advances, married to one of his supporters
• Denise Reeder - apologetic note scanned

that's nice... when were the criminal trials?

you probably think they killed vince foster, too.

 

[jillian]

If Starr came up with nothing, then why did Slick perjure himself before a federal judge?

Who said he did? Most men don't consider a blow job to be sex.

Who said he perjured himself? The judge he lied to said so.

actually, he didn't like "to" the judge. he lied during a deposition he should never have had to sit for while he was president.

if a man is asked if he cheated on his wife... and his wife is sitting there... what on earth do you expect him to say.

it's so cute watching the same loons who hate this president trash mouth bill Clinton.

and he was still a better president than anyone who you idiots picked.

 

[jillian]

Frankly I'm getting a little tired of your dishonesty Stephanie. You know damn well that Clinton never meant for that law to apply to Republicans. (any more than laws against sexual assault were meant to apply to Clinton) (or transparency laws were meant to apply to Other-Clinton)

It's well past time for you to get on the "Celebrate Conformity" train with our moral and intelectual betters on the Left. If you don't they will come for your job next!

National Review

"Bob Hope, touring the world in the year or so after the passage of the 1975 Consenting Adult Sex Bill:

“I’ve just flown in from California, where they’ve made homosexuality legal. I thought I’d get out before they make it compulsory.”

For Hope, this was an oddly profound gag, discerning even at the dawn of the Age of Tolerance that there was something inherently coercive about the enterprise. Soon it would be insufficient merely to be “tolerant” — warily accepting, blithely indifferent, mildly amused, tepidly supportive, according to taste. The forces of “tolerance” would become intolerant of anything less than full-blown celebratory approval."

Celebrate Conformity SteynOnline

"...free speech was certainly a right, but it was merely one in a whole range of competing rights - such as "equality" and "diversity" - that needed to be "balanced". What the "balancing" boils down to is that you get fired if you are an apostate from the new progressive groupthink."

sexual assault? what are you talking about?

Eileen Wellstone, a 19-year-old English woman, said Clinton sexually assaulted her after she met him at a pub near the Oxford where Clinton was a student in 1969. In fact, Clinton was expelled from Oxford and earned no degree there.

Juanita Broaddrick, a volunteer in Clinton’s gubernatorial campaign, said he raped her in 1978. Mrs. Broaddrick suffered a bruised and torn lip, which she said she suffered when Clinton bit her during the rape. Broaddrick gave a stunning interview to NBC’s Lisa Myers about the assault.

Carolyn Moffet, a legal secretary in Little Rock in 1979, said she met Gov. Clinton at a political fundraiser and was invited to his hotel room. “When I went in, he was sitting on a couch, wearing only an undershirt. He pointed at his penis and told me to suck it. I told him I didn’t even do that for my boyfriend and he got mad, grabbed my head and shoved it into his lap. I pulled away from him and ran out of the room,” she said.

Elizabeth Ward Gracen, the Miss Arkansas who won the Miss America crown in 1982, told friends she was forced by Clinton to have sex with him shortly after she won her state title. Gracen later told an interviewer that sex with Clinton was consensual. Her roommate Judy Stokes has said the ex-Miss Arkansas told her she was raped after the incident.

Paula Corbin Jones, an Arkansas state worker, filed a sexual harassment case against Clinton after an encounter in a Little Rock hotel room where the then-governor exposed himself and demanded oral sex. Clinton settled the case with Jones with an $850,000 payment.

Sandra Allen James, a former Washington, D.C., political fundraiser, said Clinton invited her to his hotel room during a political trip to the nation’s capital in 1991, pinned her against the wall and stuck his hand up her dress. She fled.

Christy Zercher, a flight attendant on Clinton’s leased campaign plane in 1992, says presidential candidate Clinton exposed himself, grabbed her breasts and made explicit remarks about oral sex. Zercher said later in an interview that White House attorney Bruce Lindsey tried to pressure her into not going public about the assault.

Kathleen Willey, a White House volunteer, said that Clinton grabbed her, fondled her breast and pressed her hand against his genitals during an Oval Office meeting in November 1993. Willey became a target for a Hillary directed smear campaign after she went public.

Why Hillary Is Not Inevitable Bill s Sordid Past The Daily Caller
Is Juanita Broaddrick Telling the Truth
Bill Clinton has the real rape problem
Bill Clinton s ong history of sexual assault
Hillary s War on Women

Clinton s list of ignored accusers - Illinois Review

• Juanita Broaddrick (AR)- rape
• Eileen Wellstone (Oxford) - rape
• Elizabeth Ward Gracen - rape - quid pro quo, post incident intimidation
• Regina Hopper Blakely - "forced himself on her, biting, bruising her"
• Kathleen Willey (WH) - sexual assault, intimidations, threats
• Sandra Allen James (DC) - sexual assault
• 22 Year Old 1972 (Yale) - sexual assault
• Kathy Bradshaw (AK) - sexual assault
• Cristy Zercher - unwelcomed sexual advance, intimidations

• Paula Jones (AR) - unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• Carolyn Moffet -unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• 1974 student at University of Arkansas - unwelcomed physical contact
• 1978-1980 - seven complaints per Arkansas state troopers
• Monica Lewinsky - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Gennifer Flowers - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Dolly Kyle Browning - post incident character assault
• Sally Perdue - post incident threats
• Betty Dalton - rebuffed his advances, married to one of his supporters
• Denise Reeder - apologetic note scanned

Thanks....I am keeping this for the next time I debate one of the Borg Collective......

you mean people way smarter than you are who aren't as deranged as you are.



go ahead, follow the lead of someone whose IQ is double digit... it's about your speed. and we'll make fun of you when you spew just like we make fun of him.

 

[Ragnar]

Frankly I'm getting a little tired of your dishonesty Stephanie. You know damn well that Clinton never meant for that law to apply to Republicans. (any more than laws against sexual assault were meant to apply to Clinton) (or transparency laws were meant to apply to Other-Clinton)

It's well past time for you to get on the "Celebrate Conformity" train with our moral and intelectual betters on the Left. If you don't they will come for your job next!

National Review

"Bob Hope, touring the world in the year or so after the passage of the 1975 Consenting Adult Sex Bill:

“I’ve just flown in from California, where they’ve made homosexuality legal. I thought I’d get out before they make it compulsory.”

For Hope, this was an oddly profound gag, discerning even at the dawn of the Age of Tolerance that there was something inherently coercive about the enterprise. Soon it would be insufficient merely to be “tolerant” — warily accepting, blithely indifferent, mildly amused, tepidly supportive, according to taste. The forces of “tolerance” would become intolerant of anything less than full-blown celebratory approval."

Celebrate Conformity SteynOnline

"...free speech was certainly a right, but it was merely one in a whole range of competing rights - such as "equality" and "diversity" - that needed to be "balanced". What the "balancing" boils down to is that you get fired if you are an apostate from the new progressive groupthink."

sexual assault? what are you talking about?

Eileen Wellstone, a 19-year-old English woman, said Clinton sexually assaulted her after she met him at a pub near the Oxford where Clinton was a student in 1969. In fact, Clinton was expelled from Oxford and earned no degree there.

Juanita Broaddrick, a volunteer in Clinton’s gubernatorial campaign, said he raped her in 1978. Mrs. Broaddrick suffered a bruised and torn lip, which she said she suffered when Clinton bit her during the rape. Broaddrick gave a stunning interview to NBC’s Lisa Myers about the assault.

Carolyn Moffet, a legal secretary in Little Rock in 1979, said she met Gov. Clinton at a political fundraiser and was invited to his hotel room. “When I went in, he was sitting on a couch, wearing only an undershirt. He pointed at his penis and told me to suck it. I told him I didn’t even do that for my boyfriend and he got mad, grabbed my head and shoved it into his lap. I pulled away from him and ran out of the room,” she said.

Elizabeth Ward Gracen, the Miss Arkansas who won the Miss America crown in 1982, told friends she was forced by Clinton to have sex with him shortly after she won her state title. Gracen later told an interviewer that sex with Clinton was consensual. Her roommate Judy Stokes has said the ex-Miss Arkansas told her she was raped after the incident.

Paula Corbin Jones, an Arkansas state worker, filed a sexual harassment case against Clinton after an encounter in a Little Rock hotel room where the then-governor exposed himself and demanded oral sex. Clinton settled the case with Jones with an $850,000 payment.

Sandra Allen James, a former Washington, D.C., political fundraiser, said Clinton invited her to his hotel room during a political trip to the nation’s capital in 1991, pinned her against the wall and stuck his hand up her dress. She fled.

Christy Zercher, a flight attendant on Clinton’s leased campaign plane in 1992, says presidential candidate Clinton exposed himself, grabbed her breasts and made explicit remarks about oral sex. Zercher said later in an interview that White House attorney Bruce Lindsey tried to pressure her into not going public about the assault.

Kathleen Willey, a White House volunteer, said that Clinton grabbed her, fondled her breast and pressed her hand against his genitals during an Oval Office meeting in November 1993. Willey became a target for a Hillary directed smear campaign after she went public.

Why Hillary Is Not Inevitable Bill s Sordid Past The Daily Caller
Is Juanita Broaddrick Telling the Truth
Bill Clinton has the real rape problem
Bill Clinton s ong history of sexual assault
Hillary s War on Women

Clinton s list of ignored accusers - Illinois Review

• Juanita Broaddrick (AR)- rape
• Eileen Wellstone (Oxford) - rape
• Elizabeth Ward Gracen - rape - quid pro quo, post incident intimidation
• Regina Hopper Blakely - "forced himself on her, biting, bruising her"
• Kathleen Willey (WH) - sexual assault, intimidations, threats
• Sandra Allen James (DC) - sexual assault
• 22 Year Old 1972 (Yale) - sexual assault
• Kathy Bradshaw (AK) - sexual assault
• Cristy Zercher - unwelcomed sexual advance, intimidations

• Paula Jones (AR) - unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• Carolyn Moffet -unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• 1974 student at University of Arkansas - unwelcomed physical contact
• 1978-1980 - seven complaints per Arkansas state troopers
• Monica Lewinsky - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Gennifer Flowers - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Dolly Kyle Browning - post incident character assault
• Sally Perdue - post incident threats
• Betty Dalton - rebuffed his advances, married to one of his supporters
• Denise Reeder - apologetic note scanned

that's nice... when were the criminal trials?

you probably think they killed vince foster, too.

I do not believe they killed Foster. I do believe Bill Clinton was, over all, a good President. You asked a question, and I gave you an answer you didn't like. Get over it.

A person can be good at their job and still be a serial abuser of women. Or maybe Bill Clinton and Bill Cosby just happen to have really, really bad luck with women. Hell, I'd have voted for him for a third term if I could have. (imagine how much better off the country would have been) Still, in his private life the man is a creepy ass, self entitled letch with a long history of abuse.

And not all of it is ancient history either...

Hillary 2016 And Bill Clinton s Possible Connection To The Jeffrey Epstein Underage Sex Scandal
Bill s libido threatens to derail Hillary again New York Post
Bill Clinton Sex Scandal Prince Andrew s Alleged Sex Slave Claims She Met Former President In New Court Documents Radar Online

Sigh. Bring on Hillary 2016! LOL

 

[jillian]

Frankly I'm getting a little tired of your dishonesty Stephanie. You know damn well that Clinton never meant for that law to apply to Republicans. (any more than laws against sexual assault were meant to apply to Clinton) (or transparency laws were meant to apply to Other-Clinton)

It's well past time for you to get on the "Celebrate Conformity" train with our moral and intelectual betters on the Left. If you don't they will come for your job next!

National Review

"Bob Hope, touring the world in the year or so after the passage of the 1975 Consenting Adult Sex Bill:

“I’ve just flown in from California, where they’ve made homosexuality legal. I thought I’d get out before they make it compulsory.”

For Hope, this was an oddly profound gag, discerning even at the dawn of the Age of Tolerance that there was something inherently coercive about the enterprise. Soon it would be insufficient merely to be “tolerant” — warily accepting, blithely indifferent, mildly amused, tepidly supportive, according to taste. The forces of “tolerance” would become intolerant of anything less than full-blown celebratory approval."

Celebrate Conformity SteynOnline

"...free speech was certainly a right, but it was merely one in a whole range of competing rights - such as "equality" and "diversity" - that needed to be "balanced". What the "balancing" boils down to is that you get fired if you are an apostate from the new progressive groupthink."

sexual assault? what are you talking about?

Eileen Wellstone, a 19-year-old English woman, said Clinton sexually assaulted her after she met him at a pub near the Oxford where Clinton was a student in 1969. In fact, Clinton was expelled from Oxford and earned no degree there.

Juanita Broaddrick, a volunteer in Clinton’s gubernatorial campaign, said he raped her in 1978. Mrs. Broaddrick suffered a bruised and torn lip, which she said she suffered when Clinton bit her during the rape. Broaddrick gave a stunning interview to NBC’s Lisa Myers about the assault.

Carolyn Moffet, a legal secretary in Little Rock in 1979, said she met Gov. Clinton at a political fundraiser and was invited to his hotel room. “When I went in, he was sitting on a couch, wearing only an undershirt. He pointed at his penis and told me to suck it. I told him I didn’t even do that for my boyfriend and he got mad, grabbed my head and shoved it into his lap. I pulled away from him and ran out of the room,” she said.

Elizabeth Ward Gracen, the Miss Arkansas who won the Miss America crown in 1982, told friends she was forced by Clinton to have sex with him shortly after she won her state title. Gracen later told an interviewer that sex with Clinton was consensual. Her roommate Judy Stokes has said the ex-Miss Arkansas told her she was raped after the incident.

Paula Corbin Jones, an Arkansas state worker, filed a sexual harassment case against Clinton after an encounter in a Little Rock hotel room where the then-governor exposed himself and demanded oral sex. Clinton settled the case with Jones with an $850,000 payment.

Sandra Allen James, a former Washington, D.C., political fundraiser, said Clinton invited her to his hotel room during a political trip to the nation’s capital in 1991, pinned her against the wall and stuck his hand up her dress. She fled.

Christy Zercher, a flight attendant on Clinton’s leased campaign plane in 1992, says presidential candidate Clinton exposed himself, grabbed her breasts and made explicit remarks about oral sex. Zercher said later in an interview that White House attorney Bruce Lindsey tried to pressure her into not going public about the assault.

Kathleen Willey, a White House volunteer, said that Clinton grabbed her, fondled her breast and pressed her hand against his genitals during an Oval Office meeting in November 1993. Willey became a target for a Hillary directed smear campaign after she went public.

Why Hillary Is Not Inevitable Bill s Sordid Past The Daily Caller
Is Juanita Broaddrick Telling the Truth
Bill Clinton has the real rape problem
Bill Clinton s ong history of sexual assault
Hillary s War on Women

Clinton s list of ignored accusers - Illinois Review

• Juanita Broaddrick (AR)- rape
• Eileen Wellstone (Oxford) - rape
• Elizabeth Ward Gracen - rape - quid pro quo, post incident intimidation
• Regina Hopper Blakely - "forced himself on her, biting, bruising her"
• Kathleen Willey (WH) - sexual assault, intimidations, threats
• Sandra Allen James (DC) - sexual assault
• 22 Year Old 1972 (Yale) - sexual assault
• Kathy Bradshaw (AK) - sexual assault
• Cristy Zercher - unwelcomed sexual advance, intimidations

• Paula Jones (AR) - unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• Carolyn Moffet -unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
• 1974 student at University of Arkansas - unwelcomed physical contact
• 1978-1980 - seven complaints per Arkansas state troopers
• Monica Lewinsky - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Gennifer Flowers - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
• Dolly Kyle Browning - post incident character assault
• Sally Perdue - post incident threats
• Betty Dalton - rebuffed his advances, married to one of his supporters
• Denise Reeder - apologetic note scanned

that's nice... when were the criminal trials?

you probably think they killed vince foster, too.

I do not believe they killed Foster. I do believe Bill Clinton was, over all, a good President. You asked a question, and I gave you an answer you didn't like. Get over it.

A person can be good at their job and still be a serial abuser of women. Or maybe Bill Clinton and Bill Cosby just happen to have really, really bad luck with women. Hell, I'd have voted for him for a third term if I could have. (imagine how much better off the country would have been) Still, in his private life the man is a creepy ass, self entitled letch with a long history of abuse.

And not all of it is ancient history either...

Hillary 2016 And Bill Clinton s Possible Connection To The Jeffrey Epstein Underage Sex Scandal
Bill s libido threatens to derail Hillary again New York Post
Bill Clinton Sex Scandal Prince Andrew s Alleged Sex Slave Claims She Met Former President In New Court Documents Radar Online

Sigh. Bring on Hillary 2016! LOL

And I pointed out that the assertions were untested so are nothing more than gossip.

So I have nothing to "get over".

I have no doubt that bush the younger has been a much better husband than Clinton. I also know that I wish bush had never been anywhere near the whiter house.

 

[JoeB131]

Tolerance goes both ways.
Religious people trying to force their beliefs on gay people is wrong.
Gay people trying to force their lifestyles on religious people is also wrong....do you hear that folks?

A baker refusing to serve cookies over the counter to a person they know is gay - IS WRONG and should be held liabel for it.
But a baker refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding makes them an active participant in the wedding. And that is different. We might think it is stupid, I certainly think it is, but at the same time I am TOLERANT of their religious beliefs and would not hold them liable for it.
Take your business elsewhere.

I really honestly doubt the baker is an "active participant".

You see, here's the thing. If you are really a member of One religion, and you think that all other religions are false, then you really should ONLY be doing cakes for YOUR religion and no others, as all other marriages are not within the sight of your Sky Pixie.

You should also not do weddings where the Bride writes he own vows, because the Bible says women need to shut their mouths in Church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-36

 

[Ragnar]

Tolerance goes both ways.
Religious people trying to force their beliefs on gay people is wrong.
Gay people trying to force their lifestyles on religious people is also wrong....do you hear that folks?

A baker refusing to serve cookies over the counter to a person they know is gay - IS WRONG and should be held liabel for it.
But a baker refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding makes them an active participant in the wedding. And that is different. We might think it is stupid, I certainly think it is, but at the same time I am TOLERANT of their religious beliefs and would not hold them liable for it.
Take your business elsewhere.

I really honestly doubt the baker is an "active participant".

You see, here's the thing. If you are really a member of One religion, and you think that all other religions are false, then you really should ONLY be doing cakes for YOUR religion and no others, as all other marriages are not within the sight of your Sky Pixie.

You should also not do weddings where the Bride writes he own vows, because the Bible says women need to shut their mouths in Church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-36

Your facetiousness, or religious ignorance notwithstanding, in this nation of millions, that may very well be the policy of some lonely worshiper of the great Sky Pixie. (perhaps said rube even sells pizza in Indiana) The point is that it's not up to you which religious sacraments an individual or business becomes a party to.

Discriination qua discrimination remains illegal.

 

[JoeB131]

Your facetiousness, or religious ignorance notwithstanding, in this nation of millions, that may very well be the policy of some lonely worshiper of the great Sky Pixie. (perhaps said rube even sells pizza in Indiana) The point is that it's not up to you which religious sacraments an individual or business becomes a party to.

Discriination qua discrimination remains illegal.

But that's the point. If anyone claimed that they won't serve Jews or Mormons or Blacks or women with braids in their hair, because they aren't following the one true GOd, this wouldn't be an issue. Public Accommodations laws would apply.

This is taking your homophobia and dressing it up in vestments.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It's kind of sad to watch the Homophobes, now having LOST the argument on gay marriage, now cling to this last little bit of homophobia instead of just coming to terms with it.

Just bake the fucking cake and shut up.

And serve the cake at our reception they'll say, while their friends get drunk and have gay sex on the dance floor. No straight wants to see that. Watch a gay pride parade in person or on YouTube sometime. It's against their Christian, Jewish, Muslim religion to be involved in gay rituals. Freedom of religion protects that. You will lose in the Supreme Court over this. And it looks like it will come to this. You can't write a law requiring people to go against their religious freedoms. This law affirms freedoms. Indians smoke peyote because of this law. SCOTUS says so.

How many weddings can you actually cite where gays had sex on the dance floor?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Here's where Southern conservative Democrats used to be for religious freedom:

History Engine Tools for Collaborative Education and Research Episodes

Christianity as a Justification for Slavery

"Slave owners had many justifications for why holding people in bondage was acceptable.

From the idea that African Americans were a lesser race who needed taking care of by white patriarchs to the economic justification, slave owners were always trying to find new ways to dispute those who disagreed with their choice to hold others in captivity. Charleston slave holders were no exception in attempting to find justifications to mask their guilt.

Often, religion came into play, on both the slavery and anti-slavery sides of the debate. In 1835, at the end of two long articles about religion and slavery in the Charleston Mercury, it was said that both the Old and New Testament give permission to hold others as slaves.

In the Old Testament, God and the Patriarchs approve.

As for the New Testament, Jesus and the Apostles show that slavery is permissible. Therefore, slavery, to those who wrote the article, was not an anti-Christian institution. It was just the opposite. Furthermore, they added, it is impious to say slavery is anti-Christian because such a conclusion contradicted God...."

Happy now?

 

[Ragnar]

Your facetiousness, or religious ignorance notwithstanding, in this nation of millions, that may very well be the policy of some lonely worshiper of the great Sky Pixie. (perhaps said rube even sells pizza in Indiana) The point is that it's not up to you which religious sacraments an individual or business becomes a party to.

Discriination qua discrimination remains illegal.

But that's the point. If anyone claimed that they won't serve Jews or Mormons or Blacks or women with braids in their hair, because they aren't following the one true GOd, this wouldn't be an issue. Public Accommodations laws would apply.

This is taking your homophobia and dressing it up in vestments.

Again, there is nothing wrong with gay people and I support gay marriage. I support both the RFRA and granting gays the same protections already afforded other minorities against discrimination. (something Indiana has yet to do and ought to) There is no inhernet contradiction there.

I'm merely against the forced participation in a religious sacrament. That is, I support minority rights even on issues where I believe the minority is wrong.

The new totalitarian tolerance movement by the left is freankly morbid and creepifyig. Lefties scouring the countryside and knocking on doors like they are the KGB or the stasi looking for May Day Parade refusenics is an ugly site indeed.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, there is nothing wrong with gay people and I support gay marriage. I support both the RFRA and granting gays the same protections already afforded other minorities against discrimination. (something Indiana has yet to do and ought to) There is no inhernet contradiction there.

I'm merely against the forced participation in a religious sacrament. That is, I support minority rights even on issues where I believe the minority is wrong.

But here's the problem. No one is 'forcing' anyone to be at a 'religious sacrament'. The services in questions are usually provided at the reception, and unless you are going to claim the Chicken Dance is a holy rite, you just look a little silly.

I do like how the homophobes have to deny being homophobes even when carving out one last little bit of homophobia.

The new totalitarian tolerance movement by the left is freankly morbid and creepifyig. Lefties scouring the countryside and knocking on doors like they are the KGB or the stasi looking for May Day Parade refusenics is an ugly site indeed.

Yeah, and those Tolerance guys who made sure that diners had to seat black patrons 50 years ago, they were just like the Gestapo!

Oh, wait. They weren't. They were standing up for civil rights and public accommodation.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Your facetiousness, or religious ignorance notwithstanding, in this nation of millions, that may very well be the policy of some lonely worshiper of the great Sky Pixie. (perhaps said rube even sells pizza in Indiana) The point is that it's not up to you which religious sacraments an individual or business becomes a party to.

Discriination qua discrimination remains illegal.

But that's the point. If anyone claimed that they won't serve Jews or Mormons or Blacks or women with braids in their hair, because they aren't following the one true GOd, this wouldn't be an issue. Public Accommodations laws would apply.

This is taking your homophobia and dressing it up in vestments.

Again, there is nothing wrong with gay people and I support gay marriage. I support both the RFRA and granting gays the same protections already afforded other minorities against discrimination. (something Indiana has yet to do and ought to) There is no inhernet contradiction there.

I'm merely against the forced participation in a religious sacrament. That is, I support minority rights even on issues where I believe the minority is wrong.

The new totalitarian tolerance movement by the left is freankly morbid and creepifyig. Lefties scouring the countryside and knocking on doors like they are the KGB or the stasi looking for May Day Parade refusenics is an ugly site indeed.

What religious sacrament are you talking about?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Tolerance goes both ways.
Religious people trying to force their beliefs on gay people is wrong.
Gay people trying to force their lifestyles on religious people is also wrong....do you hear that folks?

A baker refusing to serve cookies over the counter to a person they know is gay - IS WRONG and should be held liabel for it.
But a baker refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding makes them an active participant in the wedding. And that is different. We might think it is stupid, I certainly think it is, but at the same time I am TOLERANT of their religious beliefs and would not hold them liable for it.
Take your business elsewhere.

It really is that simple.

Active participant in the wedding? You're an idiot. First of all, the cake goes to the reception, not the wedding ceremony.

Second of all your personal opinions are not get out of jail free cards.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If you can't associate yourself with weddings, then don't become a wedding caterer.

 

[Ragnar]

Again, there is nothing wrong with gay people and I support gay marriage. I support both the RFRA and granting gays the same protections already afforded other minorities against discrimination. (something Indiana has yet to do and ought to) There is no inhernet contradiction there.

I'm merely against the forced participation in a religious sacrament. That is, I support minority rights even on issues where I believe the minority is wrong.

But here's the problem. No one is 'forcing' anyone to be at a 'religious sacrament'. The services in questions are usually provided at the reception, and unless you are going to claim the Chicken Dance is a holy rite, you just look a little silly.

I do like how the homophobes have to deny being homophobes even when carving out one last little bit of homophobia.

The new totalitarian tolerance movement by the left is freankly morbid and creepifyig. Lefties scouring the countryside and knocking on doors like they are the KGB or the stasi looking for May Day Parade refusenics is an ugly site indeed.

Yeah, and those Tolerance guys who made sure that diners had to seat black patrons 50 years ago, they were just like the Gestapo!

Oh, wait. They weren't. They were standing up for civil rights and public accommodation.

You malace, bigotry and ignorance is becoming tiresome. RFRA's can't be used for broad discrimination of any group and never have been used to do so by any court in any State. You need no put the term religious sacrament is scare quotes, feel free to substitute the word marriage as the terms are not mutually exclusive. I used the term for your edification, guessing correctly that your religious bigotry rendered you unaware of how others might view the concept of marriage. Of course, under your terms a photograper, wedding planner or even baker may need to be at a given ceremony depending on how the event is arranged.

It may also help you to know that those who know the history of the civil rights movement laugh at your feeble attempts to wrap yourself in the righteous cloak of their heroism. The analogy also fails in the sense that more often than not, it was the government standing in the way of minorities seeking equality and the business' who sought their patronage. 50 years from now, history will look back on the current Lefty witch hunt for thought criminals with the same distain it looks on now at the Democrat Party's abuse of blacks back in the day.

 

[JoeB131]

You malace, bigotry and ignorance is becoming tiresome. RFRA's can't be used for broad discrimination of any group and never have been used to do so by any court in any State. You need no put the term religious sacrament is scare quotes, feel free to substitute the word marriage as the terms are not mutually exclusive. I used the term for your edification, guessing correctly that your religious bigotry rendered you unaware of how others might view the concept of marriage. Of course, under your terms a photograper, wedding planner or even baker may need to be at a given ceremony depending on how the event is arranged.

First, learn to spell, it's "malice". And "photographer".

Secondly, we've had the Federal RFRA invoked to let a COMPANY declare what kind of birth control its employees can use. That's the batshit kind of insanity you get with RFRA's when you apply them to businesses and not just people.

Thirdly, the "sacrament" of marriage is so sacred to people that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Yet we don't see the RFRA bigots try to use them as an excuse to cater to second marriages. This is just a smoke screen to cover homophobia.

It may also help you to know that those who know the history of the civil rights movement laugh at your feeble attempts to wrap yourself in the righteous cloak of their heroism. The analogy also fails in the sense that more often than not, it was the government standing in the way of minorities seeking equality and the business' who sought their patronage. 50 years from now, history will look back on the current Lefty witch hunt for thought criminals with the same distain it looks on now at the Democrat Party's abuse of blacks back in the day.

Horseshit. Businesses happily enforced Jim Crow laws and some of them even sued under your "religious" justification. The courts slapped them down.

 

[Ragnar]

You malace, bigotry and ignorance is becoming tiresome. RFRA's can't be used for broad discrimination of any group and never have been used to do so by any court in any State. You need no put the term religious sacrament is scare quotes, feel free to substitute the word marriage as the terms are not mutually exclusive. I used the term for your edification, guessing correctly that your religious bigotry rendered you unaware of how others might view the concept of marriage. Of course, under your terms a photograper, wedding planner or even baker may need to be at a given ceremony depending on how the event is arranged.

First, learn to spell, it's "malice". And "photographer".

Secondly, we've had the Federal RFRA invoked to let a COMPANY declare what kind of birth control its employees can use. That's the batshit kind of insanity you get with RFRA's when you apply them to businesses and not just people.

Thirdly, the "sacrament" of marriage is so sacred to people that 50% of marriages end in divorce. Yet we don't see the RFRA bigots try to use them as an excuse to cater to second marriages. This is just a smoke screen to cover homophobia.

It may also help you to know that those who know the history of the civil rights movement laugh at your feeble attempts to wrap yourself in the righteous cloak of their heroism. The analogy also fails in the sense that more often than not, it was the government standing in the way of minorities seeking equality and the business' who sought their patronage. 50 years from now, history will look back on the current Lefty witch hunt for thought criminals with the same distain it looks on now at the Democrat Party's abuse of blacks back in the day.

Horseshit. Businesses happily enforced Jim Crow laws and some of them even sued under your "religious" justification. The courts slapped them down.

Just because you and I might agree that abortifacients are a legitimate form of "birth control" does not mean everyone else thinks the same way. Less so that the government has the right to force individuals to violate their conscience by providing them. (or any other form of medically unnecessary birth control for that matter) A distinction you seem unwilling to grasp.

Here is another problematic distinction for you, a wedding is not a marriage. The event itself is the only thing that is at issue and it's a religious ceremony by definition. Did you really never understand why people like us fought for gay marriage as opposed to civil unions in the first place? At least in part gay marriage is a boon to gay people of faith.

I can see that nuance is not really your thing so ending with Jim Crow lets have one last distinction and call done. Yes, obviously some business' happily enforced Jim Crow laws and what that means in the long run is fuck all. Individuals have no free choice as to the laws they are forced to obey nor do the police have a choice in the laws theyenforce. (hence the heroics of civil disobedience)

Audible sigh

It's a heavy cross we Libertarians bear taking on both the angery Left and far Right in feuds of this sort. Thank the gods... I love this shit.

I'ma just leave this here...

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

H. L. Mencken
Read more at The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed and hence clamorous... - H. L. Mencken at BrainyQuote

So go ahead Joe. Go find your volcano. Turn over every leaf in Indiana, and one day, should you find a real life/living breathing example of discrimination by the RFRA then by the gods good on you. I will join you in protest and we shall overcome!

 

[JoeB131]

Just because you and I might agree that abortifacients are a legitimate form of "birth control" does not mean everyone else thinks the same way. Less so that the government has the right to force individuals to violate their conscience by providing them. (or any other form of medically unnecessary birth control for that matter) A distinction you seem unwilling to grasp.

I refuse to grasp that ANYONE should be allowed to fuck with me because they believe in a magic sky fairy. Businesses are not people, and they don't have religions. If you don't want to provide comprehensive health care to your employees, either support universal health care from the government or get out of the employment business.

Here is another problematic distinction for you, a wedding is not a marriage. The event itself is the only thing that is at issue and it's a religious ceremony by definition. Did you really never understand why people like us fought for gay marriage as opposed to civil unions in the first place? At least in part gay marriage is a boon to gay people of faith.

I don't think you were ever out there fighting for gay marriages. If you were, you'd know it was about equal protection under the law, not just having a nice party. Well, equal protection under the law means, yes, vendors have to provide you with services under the Public Accommodation laws.

I can see that nuance is not really your thing so ending with Jim Crow lets have one last distinction and call done. Yes, obviously some business' happily enforced Jim Crow laws and what that means in the long run is fuck all. Individuals have no free choice as to the laws they are forced to obey nor do the police have a choice in the laws theyenforce. (hence the heroics of civil disobedience)

There weren't any businesses in the South that gladly served black folks. All the Businesses gladly enforced Jim Crow and some of them tried very hard to keep it going after the Federal Government said no. And, yes, religion was a large part of it. The religious right got its start after desegregation started. They shifted to abortions and gays when they realized it was unseemly to go on in favor of racism.

It's a heavy cross we Libertarians bear taking on both the angery Left and far Right in feuds of this sort. Thank the gods... I love this shit.

Libertarians are morons. Libertarians want all the advantages of living in a civilized society, without any of the obligations. I have no use for Libertarians and wish the GOP would tell them to shut the fuck up.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Remember when religion was about pleasing God and not yourself?