Religious Bashing--What it is and isn't.

[Si modo]

I've gotten the impression from a couple of posters, that they consider any criticism of the institutions of Christianity to be religious bashing. That doesn't make sense to me.

For example, is it bashing to say the Roman Catholic Church is wrong for harboring pedophile priests? Is it bashing to say the Magdalene Homes in Ireland, Catholic institutional imprisonment and slavery of young women and girls is wrong? Is it bashing of the Pope to say that he is wrong for saying that ordaining women as priests is as harmful to the Church and as deep a sin as priests who are pedophiles?

Your thoughts?

Is it EVER ok to criticise the institutions of religion without it being considered "bashing"?

Jesus, Himself, wasn't a supporter of organized religion.
Shoot, He made it His life's mission to rile the Jewish elders!
He healed on the Sabot because He and the Father are about Love more than the restrictions of a written Torah.
He flipped the traders' tables at the tabernacle because He saw His Father's house being turned into a mockery full of thieves.
He hung out with people that were considered "unclean" because the salvation that He was preparing Himself to give was for ALL of humanity.


I don't see anything wrong with rebelling against a man-made religion. We should challenge everything we're told against scripture.


There is a way to go about doing it without ridiculing.
Too often, here and other boards, there are certain ones that like to use the insulting "invisible man in the sky" routine as a way to try to belittle God (or G_d, as they like to use).
I guess that's their little way to elevate their self above others.....to come across as too educated to believe in an imaginary cloud-rider.

I will say that there a couple atheists on USMB that can joke and have fun with Christians without being overly insulting and "bash"-ish (Huggy and USC).
They know, just as well as I do, that there won't be any converting going on in these threads....that none of us make it out of this world alive......that we may as well relax and have fun (even if it is at each others' expense)

It's the ones that tend to take it to such an extreme level of attacking that keeps so many away from religious threads.


Anyways.....that's my take on it.

Good post. BUT...(and you knew that was coming, didnja? )......I use caps on God and He when referring to Him, as a sign of respect for HIM...not to pretend I am better than anyone else or my belief is the true way. I think everyone follows their own path and I wish them well whatever one they are on.

Just sayin'/speakin' for myself, mind you.

And, it's proper grammar.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think it's pretty clear what the difference is between "bashing" and honest criticism or disagreement.

Yeah: whether or not YOU agree with it.

For example, saying that homosexuality is a sin in the Bible is honest criticism or disagreement with homosexuality. Saying that homosexuals caused the Holocaust is gay bashing.

You say that now, but I've seen you jump people's shit for even suggesting that homosexuality might be unacceptable on any sort of basis.

Saying that ALL Christians think like Martin Ssempa or Scott Lively is Christian bashing. I've never that ALL Christians are the same. I have pointed out who are extremists, or what positions a Church has taken that I consider extremist.

Straw man. Trying to claim that you're not a Christian-basher on the basis that you haven't engaged in ONE form of bashing is not only disingenuous, it's also CLUMSY disingenuousness.

Examples, I have pointed out that the Pope claiming that ordaining women as priests is as grave a sin, and as harmful to the Church as pedophile priests is an extremist view and wrong.

I have pointed out that the RCC harboring pedophile priests as Church policy for many decades is wrong.

Neither of those instances constitute "bashing". They reflect honest criticism of actual stances the Church has taken.

The question is, when's the last time you condemned someone YOU AGREE WITH for being "extremist" and "wrong"? I think if all you ever do is sit around, pronouncing the evils of people you don't like and defending the same behavior in people you DO like, then anything you say about your opponents becomes bashing, because it's not a reasoned response to the evidence. It's just blind partisanship.

I disagree. You misrepresent my position. I have no problem with someone thinking homosexuality is a sin. I merely point out, that for non-christians, it isn't a sin.

I have criticised the LDS for pouring money from Utah into California to defeat marriage equality. I think it's wrong that Churches think they have right to keep non-christians who are gay from marrying each other civilly. I could care less if they won't marry gays in their Churches.

I think it's very strange that Martin Ssempa shows gay porno in Church in order to whip up hatred for gay people. If pornography is evil, why isn't he equally concerned about heterosexual pornography? If sodomy is a sin, why aren't the Martin Ssempa and Scott Lively's of the world addressing that sin to their heterosexual congregants who practice sodomy?

It hypocrisy that I look at and find interesting.

As much as I disagree with people who think that homosexuality is a sin, I am interested in what on earth has happened to Martin Ssempa and Scott Lively for them to be as extreme as they are, in attributing the Holocaust to gays, and in wanting to execute homosexuals in Uganda.

 

[AllieBaba]

Why do you care? What difference does it make to you what Christians do in the pursuit of their faith? Why do you feel compelled to control them?

 

[Dr.Drock]

Why do you care? What difference does it make to you what Christians do in the pursuit of their faith? Why do you feel compelled to control them?

Who's doing the controlling? Those who want to get married or those trying to keep people from getting married?



And a lot of christians favor equality in the marriage issue.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sky. She's always pissing and moaning over people's "thoughts"...what they THINK they are going to accomplish by adhering to a certain faith...and those "thoughts" are what she objects to.

I've never prevented anyone from getting married, thanks. I have misgivings about the state determining that refusing to marry gays is a human rights issue, however, because that will give them the ability to tell churches what to do.

And that's my primary objection to it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Why do you care? What difference does it make to you what Christians do in the pursuit of their faith? Why do you feel compelled to control them?

Who's doing the controlling? Those who want to get married or those trying to keep people from getting married?



And a lot of christians favor equality in the marriage issue.

Allie can't tell the difference between supporting marriage equality and "controlling Christians".

You're right. It's Christians who want to control CIVIL marriage law. They want to legislate their morality and prevent gay and lesbian people from marrying in City Hall.

They aren't content to just ban gays from Church ceremonies. They want to control gays in civil arenas too.

Frankly, I could care less if a Christian disapproves of me and my wife. All I want is to have the same rights as any other married couple in America.

 

[AllieBaba]

Whatever, you fucking nut.

Tell us again how it's child abuse to raise children as Christians, and share how you believe parents who do so should have their children taken from them.

Want to tell us again how you feel about excluding Christians from certain professions?

How about your "fear" of those who dare to share their religious views? (Except yourself or anti-Christians, that is..you have no fear of them...odd...)

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sky. She's always pissing and moaning over people's "thoughts"...what they THINK they are going to accomplish by adhering to a certain faith...and those "thoughts" are what she objects to.

I've never prevented anyone from getting married, thanks. I have misgivings about the state determining that refusing to marry gays is a human rights issue, however, because that will give them the ability to tell churches what to do.

And that's my primary objection to it.

A point of agreement. I agree that churches have the right to not marry gays in their churches.

I think that gays and lesbians ought to be able to civilly marry and share the same legal rights as any other married couple.

I don't understand how any Christian can call themselves Christian and support the execution of gays in Uganda, or support Scott Lively in claiming that gays caused the Holocaust.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Why do you care? What difference does it make to you what Christians do in the pursuit of their faith? Why do you feel compelled to control them?

Who's doing the controlling? Those who want to get married or those trying to keep people from getting married?



And a lot of christians favor equality in the marriage issue.

Allie can't tell the difference between supporting marriage equality and "controlling Christians".

You're right. It's Christians who want to control CIVIL marriage law. They want to legislate their morality and prevent gay and lesbian people from marrying in City Hall.

They aren't content to just ban gays from Church ceremonies. They want to control gays in civil arenas too.

Frankly, I could care less if a Christian disapproves of me and my wife. All I want is to have the same rights as any other married couple in America.

I'll bet most of the people pushing for equal rights in marriage are christian, i'll bet the large group of ppl responsible for the states that allow gay marriage are mostly christians.


And good for them, as time passes their voices will drown out those who hold the bigotted view of being against gays getting married.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sky. She's always pissing and moaning over people's "thoughts"...what they THINK they are going to accomplish by adhering to a certain faith...and those "thoughts" are what she objects to.

I've never prevented anyone from getting married, thanks. I have misgivings about the state determining that refusing to marry gays is a human rights issue, however, because that will give them the ability to tell churches what to do.

And that's my primary objection to it.

A point of agreement. I agree that churches have the right to not marry gays in their churches.

I think that gays and lesbians ought to be able to civilly marry and share the same legal rights as any other married couple.

I don't understand how any Christian can call themselves Christian and support the execution of gays in Uganda, or support Scott Lively in claiming that gays caused the Holocaust.

What a fucking nut.

I like macaroni. I'm sure that's somehow pertinent to the conversation.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Whatever, you fucking nut.

Tell us again how it's child abuse to raise children as Christians, and share how you believe parents who do so should have their children taken from them.

Want to tell us again how you feel about excluding Christians from certain professions?

How about your "fear" of those who dare to share their religious views? (Except yourself or anti-Christians, that is..you have no fear of them...odd...)

I've never said it is child abuse to raise children as Christians. I do think polygamy as it's practiced by the Warren Jeff form of religion is child abuse.

I don't think Christians should be barred from any profession. I do think that Christians who are completely intolerant of gays and lesbians should not be counseling them.
If Christianity is something that Christian counselors want to push, then they should be honest that they have a Christian bias. If a gay or lesbian chooses to be counseled by someone who wants to make them straight, and knows ahead of time, that the counselor has a Christian bias, they have every right to abuse themselves.

I don't like stealth candidates. See Ralph Reed.

I don't agree that Christians have a right to proselytize to those of us who aren't interested in converting. When I've seen some posters try to do that with me, I've given them a piece of my mind.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sky. She's always pissing and moaning over people's "thoughts"...what they THINK they are going to accomplish by adhering to a certain faith...and those "thoughts" are what she objects to.

I've never prevented anyone from getting married, thanks. I have misgivings about the state determining that refusing to marry gays is a human rights issue, however, because that will give them the ability to tell churches what to do.

And that's my primary objection to it.

A point of agreement. I agree that churches have the right to not marry gays in their churches.

I think that gays and lesbians ought to be able to civilly marry and share the same legal rights as any other married couple.

I don't understand how any Christian can call themselves Christian and support the execution of gays in Uganda, or support Scott Lively in claiming that gays caused the Holocaust.

What a fucking nut.

I like macaroni. I'm sure that's somehow pertinent to the conversation.

I point out that I agree with you, that churches have every right to marry whoever they choose to marry. I don't agree that gays and lesbians should be able to "force" a priest or minister to marry them in their church.

If you think it's "nutty" that I agree with you on this point, then fine.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Who's doing the controlling? Those who want to get married or those trying to keep people from getting married?



And a lot of christians favor equality in the marriage issue.

Allie can't tell the difference between supporting marriage equality and "controlling Christians".

You're right. It's Christians who want to control CIVIL marriage law. They want to legislate their morality and prevent gay and lesbian people from marrying in City Hall.

They aren't content to just ban gays from Church ceremonies. They want to control gays in civil arenas too.

Frankly, I could care less if a Christian disapproves of me and my wife. All I want is to have the same rights as any other married couple in America.

I'll bet most of the people pushing for equal rights in marriage are christian, i'll bet the large group of ppl responsible for the states that allow gay marriage are mostly christians.


And good for them, as time passes their voices will drown out those who hold the bigotted view of being against gays getting married.

I don't know what the majority of Christians think. They seem to be pretty varied in their views.

I have met a Unitarian minister who travels the country with his family to support marriage equality. I was moved.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Ever think that it's b/c you spend most of your time deriding christians and never [to my knowledge] mention the good they have done?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Ever think that it's b/c you spend most of your time deriding christians and never [to my knowledge] mention the good they have done?

Truth is, I've mentioned many positive things that Christians have done, and you folks have chosen to ignore those statements and fixate on the times when I've been critical.

Many of the Abolitionists were Christian leaders. I admire the many great works of charity that have been accomplished by Christians. Some of the most ardent supporters of marriage equality are Christian.

The teachings of Jesus are beautiful. I can think of no more profound or helpful teaching than to love thy neighbor as thyself.

I started a thread about Christian posters on this forum who I admire. I am a great fan of Anthony DeMello, a Jesuit priest, and Christian mystic.

I'm quite specific about my likes and dislikes in Christianity. I don't think ALL Christians are a like at all.

I do think there is danger in fundamentalism, no matter which religion practices it.

 

[AllieBaba]

People with extreme and oppression visions for mankind always pad their views with soft and fluffy ones.

You absolutely have advocated to remove children from homes where they are raised Christian. It had nothing to do with Mormonism.

You've also advocated to keep Chrsitians from teaching in schools, also in the field of psychology, if they dare to openly declare their religion.

And thank you for admitting you'd like to see Christians silenced. You call it proselytizing to make it more palatable, typical. But it comes down to silencing them for claiming their religion publicly. You want it hidden.

 

[AllieBaba]

And that is tyranny...it's the same thing Bloody Mary advocated. All people had to do was hide their religion, and they'd be *safe*.

But Christians don't do that.

 

[AllieBaba]

I imagine Sky wasn't a fan of dadt, either...

except when it comes to that hated group, the Christians.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I imagine Sky wasn't a fan of dadt, either...

except when it comes to that hated group, the Christians.

LOL. Are you saying that I think Christians should not tell anyone they're Christian if they serve in the military? That's pretty silly.

I don't hate ALL Christians. I'm not fond of Scott Lively and Martin Ssempa. I don't get why they are the way they are. I don't see how anyone committed to the teachings of Jesus could support executing gays or lying about them and saying they caused the Holocaust.

You're right that I support gays and lesbians serving openly in the military.

 

[AllieBaba]

Of course you do.

So how do you feel about Christians serving openly as Christians? In the military, in politics, in other professions (including education)?