Reality spells doom for GOP healthcare plan.

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This has been the fundamental debate throughout the history of this country, starting right at the very beginning.

that of course is very very stupid and liberal since we know what our Founders wrote and what they did when they governed under their Constitution. No one proposed welfare!!


"With respect to the two words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." --James Madison



"Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. ." - Thomas Jefferson




"They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please...Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.- Madison

 

[uscitizen]

Yeah it started with Hamilton and Jefferson. Hamilton wanted a national bank and Jefferson wanted the state capitol moved from NYC to VA (his home state) so they made a deal and both got what they wanted.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Yeah it started with Hamilton and Jefferson. Hamilton wanted a national bank and Jefferson wanted the state capitol moved from NYC to VA (his home state) so they made a deal and both got what they wanted.

Of course Hamilton and the Federalists were defeated by Jefferson and never heard from again while Jefferson went on to define America with his Second American Revolution.

Hamilton deserves respect as a founder but in reality he was used by the Republicans and then destroyed right after the Revolution for his too liberal ideas.

 

[Greenbeard]

Hamilton deserves respect as a founder but in reality he was used by the Republicans and then destroyed right after the Revolution for his too liberal ideas.

And they never resurfaced again! The End.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Hamilton deserves respect as a founder but in reality he was used by the Republicans and then destroyed right after the Revolution for his too liberal ideas.

And they never resurfaced again! The End.

Well, it seems the idea of magical liberal government did resurface again during the communist inspired New Deal, but it was dead long enough that freedom from government became the American tradition.

 

[taichiliberal]

Why should the government be meddling in a persons healthcare?

Oh, that's right, politicians and the media told you they should be.

The question shouldn't be about which political party has the "right" or "best" plan, the question should be why the hell is the government sticking it's obtrusive nose into personal matters? And personal choices?

You need a refresher course in civics....the gov't is elected by, for and of the PEOPLE to work in favor of it's general welfare. Read the Constitution and it's Amendments, as gov't enables people to address unfair business practices...to REGULATE commerce, as it were.

So when an insurance company pumps up it's rates and then dumps any client that actually needs their services, the gov't passes laws to prevent that. Maybe you should look into the testimonies of Dr. Peelo and Mr. Wendell Potter.

Bottom line: if you're happy with your insurance...NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO CHANGE.

Now, back to basics.....please tell me what insurance company can give my parents the coverage I laid out on an $8K voucher, because that's what Ryan is trying to put out. I'll wait.

Evidently, you are the one that needs the refresher course in civics.
Please tell me what part of the constitution allows the government to force people to engage in commerce.
Please tell me what part of the constitution allows the government to establish medicare or medicaid.

"Our tenet ever was that Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were restrained to those specifically enumerated, and that, as it was never meant that they should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money. "

Thomas Jefferson is but one that is probably rolling over in his grave.

No genius, Jefferson was talking about abuse of the powers beyond what was SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED. So all YOU have to do is provide the part or amendment of the Constitution that PREVENTS the federal gov't from exercising taxes that go towards protecting the general public and aiding the function of the COMMONS! This is why it's required you have car insurance and why you are penalized if found lacking so as to help the COMMONS deal with the aftermath of accidents that involve folk that don't have insurance. If you DON'T want to buy health insurance, you get an AFFORDABLE penalty in your income tax, so down the line when you or yours needs hospitalization or a doctor's care, the cost to the state will be less harsh.

Oh, and get educated on the two programs you mentioned, as they are an ELECTIVE that you would have a CO-PAY on. Then answer my original question....I'll wait.

 

[taichiliberal]

Anyone who has been hospitalized recently understands the costs involved. A five day stay with a minor operation is going to run $40,000. Even if your insurance pays 80% you are on the hook for $8000.

If you are fairly well off you can withstand the $8K. But to a family struggling to get by that is devastating

Republicans are trying to substitute a voucher system where you get a set amount to shop around with. Anything above that is your problem

What happens in five or ten years when you have to ask republicans to vote on increases to the voucher amount? is Grover Norquist going to help you out?

Not when my annual maximum out of pocket is $1,000

But keep up the fear level.

Obama appreciates your efforts

Are you paying $1 grand per year for what? Your insurance rate? Your personal doctor bills? Prescriptions?

Don't give us some generalized bullshit, pal. Give me what I asked for...an insurance plan that you can buy for $8K that can give my parents the EXACT same coverage I described. I'll wait.

 

[taichiliberal]

Building roads is far different from forcing people to engage in commerce. Just like the "general welfare" of the founding fathers is far different than the "general welfare" that taichiliberal tries to pretend it is, as shown in the preceding quote of Mr Jefferson.

In the eyes of the men you're citing, that doesn't seem to be the case. Jefferson (and Madison, whose veto he's referring to in that letter) believed the federal government had no authority to pass a bill funding the construction of roads and canals. They were great men, but they also provided the reductio ad absurdum of the strict constructionist philosophy that some today are still trumpeting.

And when you say "the 'general welfare' of the founding fathers," I'm not quite sure what you mean. The understanding of the phrase that tachiliberal presumably supports was certainly present in the founding generation, even among some of the Framers themselves (indeed, even one of the authors of the Federalist papers adopted it)--that's why you can find contemporary expressions of disdain for that view from Madison and Jefferson. You can find them arguing against it because they had political rivals--also founding fathers--who were arguing for it.

This has been the fundamental debate throughout the history of this country, starting right at the very beginning.

I don't care what you say or how you spin it, "general welfare" was never meant by any of the founding fathers to force one to engage in commerce.

And there you have it folks....Alan is NOT engaging in logical, rational debate. He has the interpretation that fits his beliefs and that's that.....evidence to the contrary be damned.

 

[taichiliberal]

Hamilton deserves respect as a founder but in reality he was used by the Republicans and then destroyed right after the Revolution for his too liberal ideas.

And they never resurfaced again! The End.

Well, it seems the idea of magical liberal government did resurface again during the communist inspired New Deal, but it was dead long enough that freedom from government became the American tradition.

Spare me this tired ass bullshit from the intellectually dishonest and bankrupt teabagger/neocon rabble......the New Deal SAVED THIS COUNTRY'S ASS! The haloed private sector was killing this country with greed, corruptions and exploitation....and the guy who put this forth was A MEMBER OF THE ELITIST (RULING) CLASS.

Jokers like YOU have been carrying the water for people who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire unless you were assigned to serve breakfast....the vain hope that you will become part of the upper class and not subjected to their policies. Well, we had 30 years of Reaganomics, and we're SCREWED. So knock it off, and tell me what insurance you can buy for $8K that would give the exact coverage described in the OP. I'll wait.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

the New Deal SAVED THIS COUNTRY'S ASS!

actually dear the New Deal was the Great Depression and WW2. See why we are positive a liberal will be slow, very very slow. How could anyone be so slow as to not know that unless he is a liberal???

The haloed private sector was killing this country with greed, corruptions and exploitation....and the guy who put this forth was A MEMBER OF THE ELITIST (RULING) CLASS.

Bernanke is the world's acknowledged expert on the liberal's Great Depression; thats why he runs the central bank. He says the Depression was caused by the Federal Reserve. Again, see why we are absolutely certain a liberal will be so very very slow??

the vain hope that you will become part of the upper class and not subjected to their policies.

yes far better to be a part of the liberal lower victim class turning to theft through government welfare entitlements as the only way to get ahead.

Well, we had 30 years of Reaganomics, and we're SCREWED.

Too stupid but perfectly liberal. The current housing crisis was caused by liberals organizing much of the machinery of government to get people into houses the Republican free market said they could not afford. Did you think it was the Girl Scouts????

So knock it off, and tell me what insurance you can buy for $8K that would give the exact coverage described in the OP. I'll wait.

In a Republican capitalist system we'd expect same coverage for $2k a year. Remember how in USSR liberal government regulation led to a system where no one could afford anything??

Is everything above the intelligence of a liberal?

 

[alan1]

In the eyes of the men you're citing, that doesn't seem to be the case. Jefferson (and Madison, whose veto he's referring to in that letter) believed the federal government had no authority to pass a bill funding the construction of roads and canals. They were great men, but they also provided the reductio ad absurdum of the strict constructionist philosophy that some today are still trumpeting.

And when you say "the 'general welfare' of the founding fathers," I'm not quite sure what you mean. The understanding of the phrase that tachiliberal presumably supports was certainly present in the founding generation, even among some of the Framers themselves (indeed, even one of the authors of the Federalist papers adopted it)--that's why you can find contemporary expressions of disdain for that view from Madison and Jefferson. You can find them arguing against it because they had political rivals--also founding fathers--who were arguing for it.

This has been the fundamental debate throughout the history of this country, starting right at the very beginning.

I don't care what you say or how you spin it, "general welfare" was never meant by any of the founding fathers to force one to engage in commerce.

And there you have it folks....Alan is NOT engaging in logical, rational debate. He has the interpretation that fits his beliefs and that's that.....evidence to the contrary be damned.

Please provide me a quote from any founding father that supports the government forcing the citizens to engage in commerce that the government determines that they should be engaged in.

Your accusation about me is false and irrelevant to what I said.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This has been the fundamental debate throughout the history of this country, starting right at the very beginning.

too stupid but oh so perfectly liberal!! The big government Federalists were defeated and never heard from again the second Jefferson saw they were not for freedom from liberal government.

Welcome to your first lesson in American History, my child !!

 

[Old Rocks]

How can anyone defend our healthcare system? We pay far more for inferior results than do the rest of the industrial nations. You can argue ideology untill you are blue in the face, but the real world results state that our present system sucks.

 

[hortysir]

How can anyone defend our healthcare system? We pay far more for inferior results than do the rest of the industrial nations. You can argue ideology untill you are blue in the face, but the real world results state that our present system sucks.

A really good article for you

The Healthcare Myths We Must Confront — The American Magazine

 

[taichiliberal]

the New Deal SAVED THIS COUNTRY'S ASS!

actually dear the New Deal was the Great Depression and WW2. See why we are positive a liberal will be slow, very very slow. How could anyone be so slow as to not know that unless he is a liberal???

what's pathetic is when dumb toots like you try to condescend to other people while clearly demonstrating your own bizarre combinatgion of revisionism and general ignorance. The New Deal was to help bring the country OUT of the Great Depression, genius! Get your timeline right. And how in the world can you allude to the New Deal being some sort or harbinger to WW2? Jeez, you neocon/teabagger flunkies will blow any smoke out of your asses to avoid conceding a point, won't ya?

The haloed private sector was killing this country with greed, corruptions and exploitation....and the guy who put this forth was A MEMBER OF THE ELITIST (RULING) CLASS.

Bernanke is the world's acknowledged expert on the liberal's Great Depression; thats why he runs the central bank. He says the Depression was caused by the Federal Reserve. Again, see why we are absolutely certain a liberal will be so very very slow??

Bernake is the same asshole that gave us the current economic mess, and then recently admitted on national TV that he may have made a mistake. Do your fucking homework instead of listening to right wing radio, sweetheart. I can always produce a link to objective, valid FACTS to prove what I say....can you?

the vain hope that you will become part of the upper class and not subjected to their policies.

yes far better to be a part of the liberal lower victim class turning to theft through government welfare entitlements as the only way to get ahead.

Are you drunk? You're not rich, you stupe....and the people who are getting the top tier of the Bush tax cuts don't want you to be....that's why they get YOU to foot the bill for setting up outsourced jobs (they get the tax cuts, you don't)....and then take CORPORATED WELFARE without batting an eye, because they got dumbasses like YOU thinking welfare for being unemployed is wrong. God, you're such a chump!

Well, we had 30 years of Reaganomics, and we're SCREWED.

Too stupid but perfectly liberal. The current housing crisis was caused by liberals organizing much of the machinery of government to get people into houses the Republican free market said they could not afford. Did you think it was the Girl Scouts????

Another talking point out of the ass of Limbaugh, and you just lap it up and parrot it, don't cha sweetheart. Well riddle me this, batman....where in the law pass by Carter does it FORCE banks to make BAD loans to people, and then bundle those loans with good ones and falsely sell them on the market to other banks and financial institutions as valid. I want a quote, not some dumbass supposition and conjecture from you. If you can't produce it, then you're just another neocon/teabagger crank too gutless to admit you're wrong.

So knock it off, and tell me what insurance you can buy for $8K that would give the exact coverage described in the OP. I'll wait.

In a Republican capitalist system we'd expect same coverage for $2k a year. Remember how in USSR liberal government regulation led to a system where no one could afford anything??

Is everything above the intelligence of a liberal?

I didn't ask for you to blow more smoke, sweetheart, I asked for you to tell me WHAT INSURANCE CAN YOU BUY FOR $8K THAT WOULD GIVE THE EXACT COVERAGE DESCRIBED IN THE OP. I'm still waiting for an answer, you intellectually impotent parrot!

 

[Greenbeard]

I didn't ask for you to blow more smoke, sweetheart, I asked for you to tell me WHAT INSURANCE CAN YOU BUY FOR $8K THAT WOULD GIVE THE EXACT COVERAGE DESCRIBED IN THE OP. I'm still waiting for an answer, you intellectually impotent parrot!

If a poster can't pass a Turing test, it's usually not worth getting too worked up about its responses.

 

[taichiliberal]

I don't care what you say or how you spin it, "general welfare" was never meant by any of the founding fathers to force one to engage in commerce.

And there you have it folks....Alan is NOT engaging in logical, rational debate. He has the interpretation that fits his beliefs and that's that.....evidence to the contrary be damned.

Please provide me a quote from any founding father that supports the government forcing the citizens to engage in commerce that the government determines that they should be engaged in.

Your accusation about me is false and irrelevant to what I said.

Try reading the Constitution, you twit. There's a whole paragraph about Congress having the power to regulate commerce. Look up the work "regulate" in the dictionary and then you might get an idea of what's going on. Or you could read the decision by the SCOTUS that said that the AHCA is Constitutional and legal, even as they weaseled by saying it was legal WITHOUT the Commerce Clause (yeah, right) I'd do it for you, but I'm damned sick and tired of doing the homework for willfully ignorant neocon/teabagger/libertardian cranks like you.

 

[taichiliberal]

How can anyone defend our healthcare system? We pay far more for inferior results than do the rest of the industrial nations. You can argue ideology untill you are blue in the face, but the real world results state that our present system sucks.

A really good article for you

The Healthcare Myths We Must Confront — The American Magazine

And yet this article of yours flies in the face of testimony by Wendell Potter and Dr. Peelo. And then there is this for starters:

FactCheck.org : FactChecking Health Insurance Premiums

FactCheck.org : Health Care Costs Didn’t Double

 

[hortysir]

How can anyone defend our healthcare system? We pay far more for inferior results than do the rest of the industrial nations. You can argue ideology untill you are blue in the face, but the real world results state that our present system sucks.

A really good article for you

The Healthcare Myths We Must Confront — The American Magazine

And yet this article of yours flies in the face of testimony by Wendell Potter and Dr. Peelo. And then there is this for starters:

FactCheck.org : FactChecking Health Insurance Premiums

FactCheck.org : Health Care Costs Didn’t Double

I think both of our links are saying about the same thing.

From my link:
The statistics we see are always about the amount we spend on healthcare, not the price of healthcare.



From yours:
Furthermore, the increase caused by the law is a result of the increased benefits it requires


Both are saying that that costs aren't "soaring" as much as people like to scream about.

Difference being, is that my link explains that since these costs aren't "soaring" there isn't such a dire need to 'overhaul health care'.
Furthermore, the increase caused by the law is a result of the increased benefits it requires

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

there isn't such a dire need to 'overhaul health care'.

how can you say that given it is a spaghetti socialist system that costs us triple what a capitalist system would??

remember how the people of the USSR and Red China could not afford anything when their entire economies were socialist? In heathcare we have created the same situation here.