Zone1 Reading my Bible, Cleaning my Gun

[Foxfyre]

Barack Obama was blasted from all sides when he at one time quipped about small town voters: "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

And later when someone interviewed Pat Buchanan on the radio and asked him how he was doing, Pat got a good laugh when he said: "I'm doing fine, reading my Bible and cleaning my gun."

Which made me think about all that small town religion and guns.

I grew up at a time when guns were present in pretty much every American home, mounted in racks in pickups, even those driven to school by students. But back then most people went to church or synagogue somewhere or approved of those who did, there was prayer before school assemblies, sporting events, pretty much everywhere, and cohesive shared community values included a very strong sense of right and wrong.

Gun crime was extremely rare. Pretty much non existent in most places.

The problem is not guns. The problem is lack of community cohesiveness, lack of shared values, lack of sense of right and wrong and IMO most of that comes from a diminished appreciation and acceptance of all that 'narrow minded' Bible and religion.

We don't have a gun problem. We have a character and value and appreciation for life and liberty problem.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

It was nice. I don't think we'll ever see "that America" again.
We don't live in that country any more.

 

[Foxfyre]

It was nice. I don't think we'll ever see "that America" again.
We don't live in that country any more.

But history records places like old Deadwood and other hellholes of America in which the people wised up, got smart, realized the value of what makes communities strong, prosperous, safe and established law, values, customs that facilitated that.

Is it impossible that Americans are no longer capable of that?

 

[Donald H]

We don't have a gun problem.

You've got it!

We have a character and value and appreciation for life and liberty problem.

And you've got it again, because that's close enough!

But the discussion will be led off-topic and right back to the perceived gun problem as quickly as your attempt started.

 

[Foxfyre]

You've got it!

And you've got it again, because that's close enough!

But the discussion will be led off-topic and right back to the perceived gun problem as quickly as your attempt started.

Those who make the argument that guns are the problem simply are ignorant of American history. So I hope the moderators will help keep the discussion on course. We need far more understanding of American history and what factors have made this country work and what policy and initiatives have created the sad state we are currently in.

Then again the topic isn't nearly as interesting to those who just want to bash people or another party/ideology and don't give a damn about the underlying causes/reasons/policy or don't want to discuss them because it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[BS Filter]

But history records places like old Deadwood and other hellholes of America in which the people wised up, got smart, realized the value of what makes communities strong, prosperous, safe and established law, values, customs that facilitated that.

Is it impossible that Americans are no longer capable of that?

I love Deadwood. Fun times.

 

[Votto]

The NRA was started in the 1870's.

Yet there were no mass shootings till the 1980's?

Funny that.

 

[Foxfyre]

I love Deadwood. Fun times.

Now it's a peaceful and entertaining historical landmark. But in the waning years of the 19th Century it was definitely in its hellfire days with essentially no law, no morals, dog eat dog, a truly violent and mean place.

 

[BS Filter]

Now it's a peaceful and entertaining historical landmark. But in the waning years of the 19th Century it was definitely in its hellfire days with essentially no law, no morals, dog eat dog, a truly violent and mean place.

Kinda like Chicago, huh.

 

[Foxfyre]

Kinda like Chicago, huh.

Well Deadwood was never as big as Chicago--I think at its max the population was something like 20,000 or so and it's less than 2,000 now--but yes. Tear apart supportive families, communities and institutions and force people into projects that include no sense of being home or pride of ownership or any positive attributes and you have crumbling, dirty, bug and rodent infested properties, discouragement, anger, frustration, immorality, and lawlessness. That is what some parts of Chicago have become and its getting steadily worse.

 

[BS Filter]

Well Deadwood was never as big as Chicago--I think at its max the population was something like 20,000 or so and it's less than 2,000 now--but yes. Tear apart supportive families, communities and institutions and force people into projects that include no sense of being home or pride of ownership or any positive attributes and you have crumbling, dirty, bug and rodent infested properties, discouragement, anger, frustration, immorality, and lawlessness. That is what some parts of Chicago have become and its getting steadily worse.

Agree. Democrats have created quite a mess.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't know when this essay was written but it does accurately lay out the value of churches and religious institutions to a community:

". . .Churches provide valuable contributions to communities in the areas of direct economic contributions, social services and community volunteering, education and civic skills training, and reduced levels of deviance. . ."

https://erlc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Some-Positive-Benefits-Churches-Bring-to-Communities.pdf#:~:text=The%20American%20founders%20viewed%20churches%20as%20a%20central,civic%20skills%20training%2C%20and%20reduced%20levels%20of%20deviance.

 

[White 6]

Barack Obama was blasted from all sides when he at one time quipped about small town voters: "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

And later when someone interviewed Pat Buchanan on the radio and asked him how he was doing, Pat got a good laugh when he said: "I'm doing fine, reading my Bible and cleaning my gun."

Which made me think about all that small town religion and guns.

I grew up at a time when guns were present in pretty much every American home, mounted in racks in pickups, even those driven to school by students. But back then most people went to church or synagogue somewhere or approved of those who did, there was prayer before school assemblies, sporting events, pretty much everywhere, and cohesive shared community values included a very strong sense of right and wrong.

Gun crime was extremely rare. Pretty much non existent in most places.

The problem is not guns. The problem is lack of community cohesiveness, lack of shared values, lack of sense of right and wrong and IMO most of that comes from a diminished appreciation and acceptance of all that 'narrow minded' Bible and religion.

We don't have a gun problem. We have a character and value and appreciation for life and liberty problem.

If I over went over to somebody's house and found them reading their Bible and cleaning their guns, would be suggesting to the family, they might, should be taking up the guns.

 

[Foxfyre]

If I over went over to somebody's house and found them reading their Bible and cleaning their guns, would be suggesting to the family, they might, should be taking up the guns.

Yeah some probably would suggest that if you don't have a clue as to the forces/events/policy/mindset that causes people to misuse guns. Or how ethics/character/religion/faith/belief modify society so that misuse of guns is extremely rare.

 

[White 6]

Yeah some probably would suggest that if you don't have a clue as to the forces/events/policy/mindset that causes people to misuse guns. Or how ethics/character/religion/faith/belief modify society so that misuse of guns is extremely rare.

Personally, I have a lot of experience with guns, and was raised to a great degree with The Bible, but normal minded gun people usually do not mix the two. I have done a lot of weapons cleaning. It is nasty and everybody knows it and nobody would want their nasty carbon cutting gun oil fingers on their bible. It just isn't done. It would be a definite sign something was on their mind, so I would definitely call their family and talk with them until they arrived.

 

[Foxfyre]

Personally, I have a lot of experience with guns, and was raised to a great degree with The Bible, but normal minded gun people usually do not mix the two. I have done a lot of weapons cleaning. It is nasty and everybody knows it and nobody would want their nasty carbon cutting gun oil fingers on their bible. It just isn't done. It would be a definite sign something was on their mind, so I would definitely call their family and talk with them until they arrived.

And some people take things so literally it is ridiculous and some people understand the context of metaphor.

 

[Donald H]

Then again the topic isn't nearly as interesting to those who just want to bash people or another party/ideology and don't give a damn about the underlying causes/reasons/policy or don't want to discuss them because it doesn't fit their narrative.

I'm inviting a discussion on the underlying causes/reasons/policies/excuses for the mass shooting problem that is so much worse in America.

And I've defanged the crazies by being able to agree that the guns themselves aren't responsible for the slaughter.

We're halfway there! The other half way is convincing them that America's culture of continuous wars is what creates all the mass shooters.

And today, you're even hinting at that!

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm inviting a discussion on the underlying causes/reasons/policies/excuses for the mass shooting problem that is so much worse in America.

And I've defanged the crazies by being able to agree that the guns themselves aren't responsible for the slaughter.

We're halfway there! The other half way is convincing them that America's culture of continuous wars is what creates all the mass shooters.

And today, you're even hinting at that!

I guess it depends on how you define 'wars'. As the Bible says, there has always been war and rumors of war but that has not affected otherwise peaceful Americans. America has never been so much a cohesive society sharing common values and hopes and dreams as it was during WWII.

Culture wars are a different thing. Tear down the moderating and supportive institutions, customs, traditions, commonly held values that produced cohesive supportive communities, and you have very different communities.

Children with a belief in God will sometimes still be cruel/unkind to other children, but are less likely to be so, less likely to engage in serious antisocial, destructive behavior, less likely to engage in illegal activities, less likely to rebel against authority. Religion has its drawbacks but for the most part has a strong positive moderating effect on societies as a whole.

The school is where a child spends a great deal of time for at least nine months of the year and has a great deal to do with the student's mental and social development. Take the prayer and acknowledgment of religious stories/beliefs out of the school, make a child's God unwelcome in the school and you have a different kind of school and you develop a different class of student. And those who are tempted into dangerous or irrational behavior will have far less moderating influence in his/her life.

When we use culture/government/ideology to divide people into political groups by economic status, race, gender, religion, or other factors, the society cannot help but be the worse for it. A society encouraged to live and let live but share common values as Americans will almost always be an improved society.