Question for the anti-healthcare crowd

A centrist point of view can only be validated if the Left and Right are "Apples" and "Apples" This isn't the case for today's Healthcare debate. Obama Healthcare is a political plan for government control based on "convenient" statistics, trumpeted by Liberals and the adoring liberal media. It has nothing to do with the purported goal of providing for "50 million" uninsured in the United States.

I will try to keep it as simple as I can.

First, there aren't 50 million uninsured because they can't get insurance. When the original debate started between Hillary and Obama they both quoted 34 million. That figure was inflated to include 11 million legal aliens who were here as students, temporary visas and were not eliminated because the figures had to support the "Plan" Gee, that still leaves us with 23 million.

Well, of that group a recent survey showed that as many as 5.5 million believe they are healthy enough that they would rather be "self insured". Yes many of them found themselves (especially those in the technical world) without jobs in the recent Recession. However to a great number of them, it meant a couple less expensive toys and cutting back. So now we are at 17.5 million. Of that figure, Medicaid addresses the truly indigent and you and I pay for that care, in our taxes. Interestingly, we had county and regional hospitals that were constructed in the 60's and 70's through the Hill-Burton plan and we were doing a good job managing them on a local basis without all the added cost of the Federal government It is estimated that 9 million fall into that category. Finally, we have VA hospitals and other medical resources for any person who spent 30 days in some branch of the military. They just have to go to the hospitals to get the care. Since those numbers are extremely difficult to gather, lets just say there are at least a couple million. Take 11 million off our last figure and we have 6.5 million Why that's less than the "illegal" aliens Pelosi and Hyde want to add to our welfare list.

Hold it a second, we want to tear down an entire medical system and entrust the same idiots in Congress who administer the most wasteful and unsuccessful programs known to the civilized world....Medicare, and The US Post Office, as two of the worst. No I don't think so.

Lets get the Federal Government out of the business and let State and Local governments use our tax dollars to fund programs we can keep focused on State & local conditions. The Federal Government should be helping with the National Institutes of Health for research, and the FDA to protect us. The National Communicable Disease Control Center does a marvelous job on protecting us from epidemics...Let's give them more money so they can help us more. It sure beats giving our tax dollars to the biggest Democratic and Republican contributors and fund raisers.


This is the first of my "installments" on a sensible approach to improving our Healthcare system...Gee Whiz think of it, a goal that anyone can support,(excluding politicians and
lobbyists)

It's late even on the West Coast, so I will say Good Night & Good luck to all.
 
And where does this leave, for example, a public school teacher who gets cancer? :eusa_whistle:
It leaves the teacher just fine with plenty of coverage as long as she has bought major medical insurance. That's what catastrophic insurance is - covering yourself for those unexpected high costs that might happen.

When you leave out insurance coverage for all the other minor stuff - the cost of major medical coverage is brought way down. This might possibly be something to make mandatory just like minimal auto insurance is mandatory in order to provide a large enough pool. This coverage should not be employer-based but individual-based...just like with your auto insurance...therefore portable no matter where you live or what job you have or don't have.
Some examples from an unbiased source would help your case at this point.

You like to be spoon-fed don't you? Look up the many catastrophic insurance options on the market for yourself....they're out there....here's one to get you started....it has 3 low-cost insurance choices to pick from...
Aetna BodyGuard Health Insurance
If most people did this my guess is that most premiums could be lowered even further and/or one could get a better policy for the money.

Working people need to start their own health savings accounts....that is the money they will have at the ready to pay directly for all their minor and routine health needs plus to pay for the out-of-pocket requirements for their low-cost catastrophic insurance.

This approach to health care eliminates most of the middlemen getting in the way....no government bureaucrats...no employer plans that may fall short of your needs or disappear if you lose a job or change jobs....your individual insurance is yours alone (like auto insurance) you choose the coverage you want and it stays with you no matter who you work for....you have no insurance companies monitoring your every little visit to your doctor...you pay directly for low-cost services at clinics or places like WalMart low cost clinics....you only buy the major medical insurance you need and pay for the rest out of your own pocket....thus creating a competitive insurance market (read low cost) in the traditional American capitalistic marketplace...

Yes...there is need of some government regulation.....our Congressmen need to help this along today by eliminating competitive restrictions and allow for borderless insurance ....they also need to work on tort reform....etc.....not try to shanghai us Americans into a socialized government plan that we all know is going to cost far too much and only end up with rationed health care...
 
It leaves the teacher just fine with plenty of coverage as long as she has bought major medical insurance. That's what catastrophic insurance is - covering yourself for those unexpected high costs that might happen.

When you leave out insurance coverage for all the other minor stuff - the cost of major medical coverage is brought way down. This might possibly be something to make mandatory just like minimal auto insurance is mandatory in order to provide a large enough pool. This coverage should not be employer-based but individual-based...just like with your auto insurance...therefore portable no matter where you live or what job you have or don't have.
Some examples from an unbiased source would help your case at this point.

You like to be spoon-fed don't you? Look up the many catastrophic insurance options on the market for yourself....they're out there....here's one to get you started....it has 3 low-cost insurance choices to pick from...
Aetna BodyGuard Health Insurance
If most people did this my guess is that most premiums could be lowered even further and/or one could get a better policy for the money.

Working people need to start their own health savings accounts....that is the money they will have at the ready to pay directly for all their minor and routine health needs plus to pay for the out-of-pocket requirements for their low-cost catastrophic insurance.

This approach to health care eliminates most of the middlemen getting in the way....no government bureaucrats...no employer plans that may fall short of your needs or disappear if you lose a job or change jobs....your individual insurance is yours alone (like auto insurance) you choose the coverage you want and it stays with you no matter who you work for....you have no insurance companies monitoring your every little visit to your doctor...you pay directly for low-cost services at clinics or places like WalMart low cost clinics....you only buy the major medical insurance you need and pay for the rest out of your own pocket....thus creating a competitive insurance market (read low cost) in the traditional American capitalistic marketplace...

Yes...there is need of some government regulation.....our Congressmen need to help this along today by eliminating competitive restrictions and allow for borderless insurance ....they also need to work on tort reform....etc.....not try to shanghai us Americans into a socialized government plan that we all know is going to cost far too much and only end up with rationed health care...

I'd love to be able to purchase catastrophic insurance. Of course, I can't because I have a pre-existing condition. And guess what? Since I can't purchase health insurance, I can't set up a Health Savings Account either. Between the insurance industry and the politicians, our healthcare is being run by the dumbest mother fuckers on Earth. But a lot of people keep defending this great system.

One warning to everyone. Don't get too sick in the US. If you do, you'll lose your job and your insurance, and then you'll be screwed.
 
Some examples from an unbiased source would help your case at this point.

You like to be spoon-fed don't you? Look up the many catastrophic insurance options on the market for yourself....they're out there....here's one to get you started....it has 3 low-cost insurance choices to pick from...
Aetna BodyGuard Health Insurance
If most people did this my guess is that most premiums could be lowered even further and/or one could get a better policy for the money.

Working people need to start their own health savings accounts....that is the money they will have at the ready to pay directly for all their minor and routine health needs plus to pay for the out-of-pocket requirements for their low-cost catastrophic insurance.

This approach to health care eliminates most of the middlemen getting in the way....no government bureaucrats...no employer plans that may fall short of your needs or disappear if you lose a job or change jobs....your individual insurance is yours alone (like auto insurance) you choose the coverage you want and it stays with you no matter who you work for....you have no insurance companies monitoring your every little visit to your doctor...you pay directly for low-cost services at clinics or places like WalMart low cost clinics....you only buy the major medical insurance you need and pay for the rest out of your own pocket....thus creating a competitive insurance market (read low cost) in the traditional American capitalistic marketplace...

Yes...there is need of some government regulation.....our Congressmen need to help this along today by eliminating competitive restrictions and allow for borderless insurance ....they also need to work on tort reform....etc.....not try to shanghai us Americans into a socialized government plan that we all know is going to cost far too much and only end up with rationed health care...

I'd love to be able to purchase catastrophic insurance. Of course, I can't because I have a pre-existing condition. And guess what? Since I can't purchase health insurance, I can't set up a Health Savings Account either. Between the insurance industry and the politicians, our healthcare is being run by the dumbest mother fuckers on Earth. But a lot of people keep defending this great system.

One warning to everyone. Don't get too sick in the US. If you do, you'll lose your job and your insurance, and then you'll be screwed.

I hear ya.....that's where some government regulation could help.... so the insurance companies don't get to just cherry pick...and anybody should be able to set up a HSA. The Dimwits have been fighting HSAs, etc. for years now....speaking of getting screwed...they want to take control of your health care (and control of you) so you have to dance to their tune....

Clearly, when one's health insurance is connected to a job you run the risk of losing your health insurance right along with your job....COBRAs a laugh....the two must be separated.....your health insurance should be purchased individually BY YOU on the open market....much like auto insurance....preferably early in life...
 
Between the insurance industry and the politicians, our healthcare is being run by the dumbest mother fuckers on Earth. But a lot of people keep defending this great system.

One warning to everyone. Don't get too sick in the US. If you do, you'll lose your job and your insurance, and then you'll be screwed.

so...you prefer having what... the dumb govt motherfuckers run it?...is that what your saying?...if not set me straight....
 
The difference between the gov taking your money for medical care and insurance companies taking your money for medical care:
The government is very, very hard to sue
The government is under no law to keep its word
The government can use that money however it wants
The government will give jobs to many layers of managers (that happen to know someone) to manage a few employees
The government is under no obligation to provide quality care (see gov housing, VA hospitals, DMV, airport security, etc)

vs

insurance companies can loose customers if their service is not good
insurance companies are easier to sue
insurance companies must offer the customer a service the customer is willing to purchase
insurance companies must offer good customer service or the customer will leave
insurance companies must pay for medical care the customer wants and is satisfied with to keep customer
insurance companies must stay competitive and current with the medical field or the customer will go somewhere else

These are some of the differences that citizens should check. In addition, as long as there are insurance companies and people that are not insured, it is possible for a patient to pay for services by themselves. Once the gov has medical care, it will be harder to get service; you will be registered and fined and forced to pay the gov for your healthcare, if you need it or not.

Open insurance companies up to more competition, across state lines, let the customer decide what is covered in the policy. This will reduce overall costs

Do tort reform, limit the death benefit to medical costs + twice the amount of that individual's life insurance policy. If they are injured and need medical care, a living allowance and paid medical care. Stop giving people millions of dollars for petty medical mistakes.

Allow people to have medical savings account that can be used for dental, vision, medical treatments of their choice. The accounts should be tax free and should be transferrable by will and last testament.

None of those suggestions are in the gov bill, they are trying to get the money....it looks like taxes to them.....there is no indication of concern for the citizens in these bills.
 
Okay:
1. Both the government and private insurance companies are equally hard to sue. A case against either will cost hugely in time and money.
2. The government is not above the law: it can't break a contract on a whim, but rather it requires new legislation. Pretty much kills the rest of "logic's" claims.
3. Insurance companies can and often do break contracts by arbitrarily denying claims based on which of their clients is least likely to sue. (Tort reform would just fuel this practice.)
4. Insurance companies are currently allowed to cherry-pick, a practice which once got Ma Bell into lots of antitrust trouble.
5. The largest insurance companies, as is the case with many other industries, collude on prices.
6. Insurance companies don't have to do anything to keep a patient "satisfied" if that patient has a pre-existing condition.
7. It is not possible for any but a tiny fraction of patients to pay for services themselves. Got $2-3 million put by, Annie?

I've got more... :cool:
 
Okay:
1. Both the government and private insurance companies are equally hard to sue. A case against either will cost hugely in time and money.Ok, explain the malpractice losses. How many cases of US gov't or state gov't judicial loses?
2. The government is not above the law: it can't break a contract on a whim, but rather it requires new legislation. Pretty much kills the rest of "logic's" claims.Can you give examples of what you mean?
3. Insurance companies can and often do break contracts by arbitrarily denying claims based on which of their clients is least likely to sue. (Tort reform would just fuel this practice.) you are against any tort reform?
4. Insurance companies are currently allowed to cherry-pick, a practice which once got Ma Bell into lots of antitrust trouble. That's where reform does come into play. No one or at least few would argue that.
5. The largest insurance companies, as is the case with many other industries, collude on prices. Has nothing to do with costs? Somehow the privates need to pay over 100% of actual costs, while gov't provided are in the 70-80% payment, so IF we're all on gov't care, how is money going to be saved, without significantly lowering the amount of services given?
6. Insurance companies don't have to do anything to keep a patient "satisfied" if that patient has a pre-existing condition.Wanna bet? I have 5 different plans to choose from. I'm not well paid, less than $40k.
7. It is not possible for any but a tiny fraction of patients to pay for services themselves. Got $2-3 million put by, Annie? Again, a smorgasbord of choices might be a very good idea. Perhaps a major medical with no cap, but high deductible, while little coverage for preventative care, with physicians passing on administrative costs savings.

I've got more... :cool:
There are so many ways to try and 'fix' the issues, with the government mandated crap being the least desirable.
 
There are so many ways to try and 'fix' the issues, with the government mandated crap being the least desirable.
If it really is the "least desirable," the private insurers should have no problem competing with it, should they? :eusa_shhh:
 
There are so many ways to try and 'fix' the issues, with the government mandated crap being the least desirable.
If it really is the "least desirable," the private insurers should have no problem competing with it, should they? :eusa_shhh:

Without demonizing and stacked deck? Yes. But that's not the way the gov't works, which obviously the vast majority of Americans do understand.
 
Between the insurance industry and the politicians, our healthcare is being run by the dumbest mother fuckers on Earth. But a lot of people keep defending this great system.

One warning to everyone. Don't get too sick in the US. If you do, you'll lose your job and your insurance, and then you'll be screwed.

so...you prefer having what... the dumb govt motherfuckers run it?...is that what your saying?...if not set me straight....

Why do you hate our representative democracy so much?
 
Between the insurance industry and the politicians, our healthcare is being run by the dumbest mother fuckers on Earth. But a lot of people keep defending this great system.

One warning to everyone. Don't get too sick in the US. If you do, you'll lose your job and your insurance, and then you'll be screwed.

so...you prefer having what... the dumb govt motherfuckers run it?...is that what your saying?...if not set me straight....

Why do you hate our representative democracy so much?

im sorry Truth...but as usual....you just took the last sentence and ran with it....
 
I only read the title, but I don't want our health care to succeed like our post office has.
Amtrack? Medicare? social security? any of these ring a bell?
 
I only read the title, but I don't want our health care to succeed like our post office has.

if you only knew Otter.....the PO IS pretty damned successful....in spite of piss poor management,who excells at blowing millions of $$$$....making the wrong decisions about how the mail should be delivered,never mind they might ask those who actually do the work,what we think about their bad ideas,not all but most their ideas are counter-productive....management who can only advance by how they fuck up the works or by fucking over some one else,or just be an asshole.....in SPITE of swimming upstream....those of us who actually do the work,getting the mail delivered......do a pretty dam good job.....

so a round of applause from a fellow worker to those nationwide.....cause i know .....:clap2:

and hey if your place of employ is like this....join in....give yourself a hand....
 
Then............there is government.

Social Security?? ............. A JOKE

Tell that to the massive amounts of seniors that used to live and die in poverty before it was created. It doesn't suck, we just need less Repubs stealing from it and it will be fine. There's really nothing wrong with this pay as you go system... nothing.

AMTRAK???.........A JOKE ( humongous deficits )
Yes, the government needs to stop corporate socialism, I agree.

The US Post Office............BEYOND A JOKE ( 2 billion in debt JUST THIS YEAR!!)

Lots of companies post loses for years. The whole industry is going through massive down turn as people shift their mailing habits to e-mail and texting. It will adapt and post profits again, as it has closed over 1k post offices nation wide.
Medicare...........Ooooooooooooops!!! No phrase to describe.

Get off the propaganda pipe. Seniors love medicare. Do you have no interest in truth?
Oh........but of course, government is a slam dunk to operate 16% of the US economy efficiently!!!

We know that more of the profit being taken out of the health industry, the better the care, and the cheaper it becomes. How do we know this... umm, because every single industrialized nation has done it. Do you really hate this country and government that much that you don't think it can do it at least as equally good if not better than other countries?

People like the author of this thread loath anybody who is successful. These same people are among the 21%er's........miserable fcukk ups in life that will go to their graves miserable and sayng and doing anything they can to fcukk over the successful. Even if it means screwing large segments of our society who will be rationed health care under a govt run system.

Wow... I think that speaks for itself. Sorry, but I'm successful, and I know LOTS of successful people who are on board with universal health care because.... it makes sense for everyone. 80%+ of seniors were in poverty before and without medical before social security and medicare came into place. These were hard working americans. You really need to think before you speak.

Assholes........let me be clear. $$ are not spent on healthy people. $$ are spent on the sick. Its always been that way. Now...........suddenly, the government is going to make sure health care gets less expensive while treating far more people?? Ummm............sorry, but only k00ks can come up with math that works that way!! Rationed care is inevitable under Universal Health Care...........100% certainty. The elderly will get royally fcukked just to make the #'s at all plausible. 100% certainty.

It's called education and preventive care, instead of re-active medicine. Wake up moron, that's what all other countries do and it works! It's a major part of the bill is WELLNESS. Not just giving people drugs or cutting things out of their bodies. If you get people well, and have preventative care = lower costs.
Is a free market system perfect?? Lets put it this way.........some people ( conservatives) realize that life frequently comes down to tradeoffs: suck vs. suckier.

In this case.............government run health care = the suckier.

Its not even debatable...........particularly if you are somebody who currently HAS health insurance ( in which case, if you support Obama's plan............your a fcukking mental case:funnyface:)

I'm assuming you're probably some kid, but still whenever you're getting your opinions from is just plain wrong. Start thinking and asking people who have medicare if they like it. Study other countries and how they administer health care, and most important... get an education please.
 

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