Q for Followers of Jesus

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Eternity, so hear, is a long time so if you don't choose the right denomination there is a high price to pay for being "wrong".

Believing in Christ as your saviour has nothing to do with which denomination you choose. The bible says that even in bad churches there will be true believers.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by NewGuy
What would you call a faith that proves its self with historical evidence and prophecies which have been documented fulfilled?

To be honest, and I mean this with great respect, I am not seeking historical evidence and prophecy in faith. I've always been more fascinated with the interprettation of the Divine and our connection with the Divine. Present over the past and future.

 

[freeandfun1]

The following is from a site on a sermon about Matthew 13:24-30;36-43.

"Lessons from the Weeds"

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Ephesians 6:12)

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8)

As we seek to live for the Lord the devil is going to actively seek to derail us. As we try to share the gospel with others the Devil is going to try to frustrate our attempts.

The Bible tells us that Satan loves to masquerade as an Angel of Light (2 Cor. 11:14). In other words he loves to pretend to be something that he is not. And he loves to plant those in the world who look enough like the real thing to lead others astray. The Bible warns us to beware for,

False Christs or False Saviors (Matthew 24:4-5)
False Apostles (2 Corinthians 11:13)
False Ministers (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
A False Gospel (Galatians 1:6-12)
False Prophets (2 Peter 2:1)
False Doctrine (Hebrews 13:9)
False Miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)

Look around at the false religions around us. They all sound pretty good. They use spiritual language, they talk about love, they proclaim that we are brothers . . . .but they are seeking to move us away from Christ. Satan is a good counterfeiter. He is able to produce people who look very much like a believer,

They use Christian terms
They are nice people
They adopt Christian practices (like the sacraments)
They get involved as leaders in churches
They have great Christian experiences (In Matthew 7:22 we are told that some unbelievers have cast out demons, prophesied and performed miracles)

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
To be honest, and I mean this with great respect, I am not seeking historical evidence and prophecy in faith. I've always been more fascinated with the interprettation of the Divine and our connection with the Divine. Present over the past and future.

You made reference to belief systems as equals. I am trying to ask what would make you NOT see them as equals, but one as being THE ONLY CORRECT ONE.

Seems to me the logical mind by my above criteria would have to conclude the one in question the one correct one.

 

[cptpwichita]

their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.likewise also the men,leaving the natural use of the woman,burned in their lust for one another,mem with men committing what is shameful,and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

and even as they did not like to retain god in their knowledge,god gave them over to a debased mind,to do those things which are not fitting;being filled with all unrighteousness ,sexual immorality,wickedness,covetousness,maliciousness,full of envy,murder,strife,deceit,evil-mindedness;they are whispers,backbiters,haters of god,violent,proud,boasters,inventors of evil things,disobedient to parents,undiscerning,untrustworthy,unloving,unforgiving,unmerciful,who,knowing the righteous judgment of god,that those who practice such things are deserving of death,not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
romans 1:18-32

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by NewGuy
You made reference to belief systems as equals. I am trying to ask what would make you NOT see them as equals, but one as being THE ONLY CORRECT ONE.

Seems to me the logical mind by my above criteria would have to conclude the one in question the one correct one.

An excellent question. Under the assumption that a true religion or faith exists, what would be the criteria for me to accept it as the truth? Let me digress for one moment, if I may be allowed.

What criteria would not be suitable? Well if it was historical record and prophesy alone, than "science" would have to be on par with faith since it can and has provided truths on the past as well as "prophesies", in a sense, that have become true. Science cannot be equated with the Divine since it has no means of interpretting it, therefore that cannot be a suitable system alone.

Going back to your original question, I suppose the only answer I can come out with is Divine revellation to myself. I hope you can appreciate that taking faith on the faith provides a difficult method of self-realization.

To your credit, you know have made me ask myself question I had not asked myself before. To that end, I thank you.

 

[cptpwichita]

part of that got cut-off

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
An excellent question. Under the assumption that a true religion or faith exists, what would be the criteria for me to accept it as the truth? Let me digress for one moment, if I may be allowed.

What criteria would not be suitable? Well if it was historical record and prophesy alone, than "science" would have to be on par with faith since it can and has provided truths on the past as well as "prophesies", in a sense, that have become true. Science cannot be equated with the Divine since it has no means of interpretting it, therefore that cannot be a suitable system alone.

Going back to your original question, I suppose the only answer I can come out with is Divine revellation to myself. I hope you can appreciate that taking faith on the faith provides a difficult method of self-realization.

To your credit, you know have made me ask myself question I had not asked myself before. To that end, I thank you.

No problem.

I would add that if divine revelation is what you would consider truth, and no man or science could do the job, that does not discount a man or science finding evidence which may be in total support of devine claim. IE-- Finding noah's ark.

While science may not be able to determine it his exactly, if it is on a mountain peak 5500 feet up, and the wood is at least 3000 years old, and the ark is extraordinarily large, that would be a great chance at a second look.

This sort of science is how Christians tend to see the discoveries and coordinate with Biblical text to be able to point and say "look, science proves it", when the rest of the world laughs.

No matter what your faith, it is this kind of deductive reasoning that can prove your faith beyond "blind" faith, and is what most Highly Educated Christians go through as (WE) are incredible skeptics to begin with and cannot "check our brains" at the door.

I hope this gives insight to how logic from a human side CAN be used with divine revelation to prove a reality in something normally deemed unprovable.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by -=d=-
of what? Of Christ being the only path? It's true because Christ SAID it.

Do you want 'proof' of God? Look for Him. (shrug).

Faith.

Learn it.

Liberals have lots of faith - shouldn't be hard for you to understand. They just have faith in things which will fail.

:-/

And I say that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east...Therefore it's true.

Absurd as it sounds, that is your line of reasoning...it does not consitute proof.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
And I say that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east...Therefore it's true.

Absurd as it sounds, that is your line of reasoning...it does not consitute proof.

Biblical prophecy:

Disprove it.

 

[dilloduck]

waste of time--- you can rationalize anything

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by dilloduck
waste of time--- you can rationalize anything

You weenie. Disprove it.

 

[dilloduck]

prove it

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
And I say that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east...Therefore it's true.

Absurd as it sounds, that is your line of reasoning...it does not consitute proof.

What you can't seem to get a grasp on is the fact God never set out to 'prove' his existance to Mankind. The only possible way for you to know who God is revovles around 'faith'.

That said, the Bible just makes sense. it's Rational. Throughout creation are filled signs and ideas of who God is.

You'll not find God unless you let go of some issues, bro.

Not my words - His.

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by -=d=-
What you can't seem to get a grasp on is the fact God never set out to 'prove' his existance to Mankind. The only possible way for you to know who God is revovles around 'faith'.

That said, the Bible just makes sense. it's Rational. Throughout creation are filled signs and ideas of who God is.

You'll not find God unless you let go of some issues, bro.

Not my words - His.

Not true--new guy has proved it by reasoning Just ask him. "The bible makes sense??? Depends on your interpretation.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by dilloduck
Not true--new guy has proved it by reasoning Just ask him. "The bible makes sense??? Depends on your interpretation.

what isn't true?

The Bible makes sense regardless of interpretation. That's a copout people who are afraid use.

 

[dilloduck]

A virgin birth makes sense? 2 of all the animals in the world on Noahs ark makes sense ? please.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Indeed. Which creates a great puzzle for a person choosing their faith. Thousands to chose from, one or none are correct. All, from what I can tell are based on a circular arguments, logically speaking. Then again, I fully accept that faith is not supposed to be completely logical. As a person still actively searching for his spirituality, those concepts create quite the paradox in my mind. Though I suppose the search is rewarding in itself. I am learning alot from others.

Isaac, you make a great point. While I would argue that there are many convincing facts out there that point to Christianity as the "true" religion (for lack of a better term), there is always a step of faith that you have to take. I mean, God did not come out from behind a cloud and tell me that I should be a Christian; I accepted the claims of Christianity on the basis of what I had learned about it and how it fit into the world I saw it. I can tell you that based on my experiences as a Christian, I have experienced God in a very real way on a few occasions - but that came after that step of faith. The way I have always seen it is that if God had made it 100% absolutely crystal clear, there would be no need for faith at all. As it is, I think God has made it so that anyone who seeks the truth about Him will find that truth, as He says in the Bible, "And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeramiah 29:13).

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by dilloduck
A virgin birth makes sense? 2 of all the animals in the world on Noahs ark makes sense ? please.

2 of all the animals? Naw - Noah didn't need to take fish with him. Or even grown specimins. there may have been fewer animals then too...

Virginal birth makes sense because that's the only way for Christ to have been sinless.


Take the Bible as a whole - it makes sense to believe.

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by -=d=-
2 of all the animals? Naw - Noah didn't need to take fish with him. Or even grown specimins. there may have been fewer animals then too...

Virginal birth makes sense because that's the only way for Christ to have been sinless.


Take the Bible as a whole - it makes sense to believe.

No a virgin birth is what you claim to have happened in order for you to try to prove that Jesus was sinless. Common sense would call for a biological father.

Isn't all this supposed to be a "miracle" anyway?