Prop 8 in California

[Sunni Man]

For your information, gayness runs in my family. My father and uncle were gay, I am gay. My sister is bisexual.

Actually, I am glad to hear that news.

Because your perverted gene pool will soon be extinct!!

 

[sky dancer]

Actually, I am glad to hear that news.

Because your perverted gene pool will soon be extinct!!

Thanks for the warm and friendly greeting.

 

[Sunni Man]

Thanks for the warm and friendly greeting.

Hey you know me!!

Always here to put a little Sun shine into peoples lives!!!

 

[Truthspeaker]

No other church acted the way the Mormon sect acted. No other church pulled out all the stops to actively work their members to raise the funds which Mormons provided. For the Mormons to whine that they are singled out is like Ted Bundy complaining that the was “singled out” for killing 35 women. No other church did what the Mormons did in this campaign. It is hardly singling them out if they were pretty much the only church to act as they did.

It was the Mormon leaders who made their “sacred places of worship” centers of political activity. Remember that Mormon leaders paid to broadcast satellite messages to hundreds of Mormon churches. In those broadcasts they told their members, sitting in the pews, to fund Prop 8. The church used those “sacred places of worship” for political organizing. They recruited activists to drive to California to campaign to strip gays of rights. They raised the money that funded the campaign. Without using those “sacred places of worship” the way the Mormon leadership did it is unlikely that Prop 8 would have passed.

It was the Mormon leadership which turned “sacred places of worship” into centers of political activism. Now the church is demanding those centers of political activism be exempt from protests because they are places of worship. The hypocrisy is astounding.

If Mormon leaders turned their churches into political recruiting centers then it is perfectly fine to protest at Mormon “places of worship”. Free expression doesn’t mean one is exempt from the consequences of that speech.

What angers the Mormon sect’s leaders is that they wanted a stealth campaign. They wanted Catholics to front the campaign and take all the blame while Mormons provided the volunteers and funding. The idea was for Mormons to eat their cake and have it too.
Classically Liberal: Political fund-raising centers targeted for protests.

The church has a tithing fund, a fast offering fund, a missionary fund and others. None of these funds were touched. Just because leaders donate of their own money which they make outside of their unpaid clergy positions, doesn't mean the church organization has donated. Even if they did, what's the big deal. The church didn't dictate government policy. Individuals voted. You give all the Mormons too much praise for this. Blame is not the correct word, assuming something went wrong. Praise is the right word. Praise is to be given to all the people that outnumbered us by the millions, and praise is to go to God for protecting the institution of traditional marriage.

With all due respect, we are fighting to protect our kids, because this whole issue is about kids, people are smart enough to figure out that schools will teach that homosexuality is normal when it is not. They did and do still teach this at my old high School San Leandro High. It is not a covert action. it is out in the open, holding gay history month and gay pride month.
Don't pretend that this won't be taught in schools. you don't get to accuse others of lying without being called out for it yourself.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Respect of other religions to me means not mocking those who have a four armed or eight armed deity. What does God look like? Do you know? Is God male or female? Do you think God is incapable of manifesting in any way at all?

As a Buddhist, I am not considered a sinner as a married lesbian. I am married as a Buddhist, and I am civilly married. I don't care if you don't like it. I care that your Church went out of its way to take a right away from me.

Stop trying to ram YOUR churches morality on my civil marriage.

Don't tell me I never had it so good. I waited 23 years to be able to marry my wife and two months later, YOUR Church poured 22 million dollars into MY state to undo that law.

I am as private in my sexuality as any other married person.

For your information, gayness runs in my family. My father and uncle were gay, I am gay. My sister is bisexual.

Mind your own business. My marriage is none of your business. Stay away from civil law. Try preaching to someone who wants to be a Mormon.

Due to your emotional state, you have lost the ability to reason so we will get no where. Private with your sexuality? You have been pretty public about announcing it. Your actions speak so loudly I can't hear what you say. You don't have a marriage by the way, you can call it what you want, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, It ain't a buffalo.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Due to your emotional state, you have lost the ability to reason so we will get no where. Private with your sexuality? You have been pretty public about announcing it. Your actions speak so loudly I can't hear what you say. You don't have a marriage by the way, you can call it what you want, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, It ain't a buffalo.

So Truth, what's the nature of your objection? Is it that the government does not own "marriage" that it is instead a religious institution that must be governed by the precepts of the various religions and only recognized for civil purposes by the government? Or, are you just wholly against the idea of gay people cohabiting with a civil status on a par with marriage.

Put another way, would you be amenable to a civil union status that had all of the rights etc. of marriage, but was not called "marriage?"

 

[Cecilie1200]

Where was I when this turned into the "Do Mormons Suck Or Not?" thread, and WHY, exactly, did it turn into that?

 

[Truthspeaker]

So Truth, what's the nature of your objection? Is it that the government does not own "marriage" that it is instead a religious institution that must be governed by the precepts of the various religions and only recognized for civil purposes by the government? Or, are you just wholly against the idea of gay people cohabiting with a civil status on a par with marriage.

Put another way, would you be amenable to a civil union status that had all of the rights etc. of marriage, but was not called "marriage?"

I wouldn't really care, because marriage was first instituted by God. His marriages are the correct definition. Man and Woman. Men can create civil marriages and call them whatever they want, but if I have a say in the definition of a civil marriage, I would and did vote yes on prop 8.

It's actually a great question because if someone told me I couldn't marry it would mean nothing to me. i could care less about tax benefits and government recognition. i would define marriage the way my religion teaches me and could care less what the people think of me. The only people who's definition of marriage I care about is my wife and kids. But you see herein is the homosexual agenda unfurled, they can't teach their own kids, so they want to teach yours. They want YOU to tell them that what they are doing is right because they don't believe their own lies. They need someone else to convince them.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Where was I when this turned into the "Do Mormons Suck Or Not?" thread, and WHY, exactly, did it turn into that?

You were here, but you see the reason people keep attacking me specifically is because the truth has a certain ring to it. You can deny it using whatever Socratic argument you like, just look where it got the society of Socrates.
Mormons have taken a brave stand, with unshaking determination in the face of insults, vandalism and lies. It won't be long and won't surprise me when things go back to the way they were in 1840's Missouri when mobs assembled against us and murdered and raped our wives and children and the majority of our Men. When you stick your neck out there, somebody always wants to take a chop at it. that's why people feel the need to attack mormons, because they stand for something and don't care about "political correctness", only correctness.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I wouldn't really care, because marriage was first instituted by God. His marriages are the correct definition. Man and Woman. Men can create civil marriages and call them whatever they want, but if I have a say in the definition of a civil marriage, I would and did vote yes on prop 8.

It's actually a great question because if someone told me I couldn't marry it would mean nothing to me. i could care less about tax benefits and government recognition. i would define marriage the way my religion teaches me and could care less what the people think of me. The only people who's definition of marriage I care about is my wife and kids. But you see herein is the homosexual agenda unfurled, they can't teach their own kids, so they want to teach yours. They want YOU to tell them that what they are doing is right because they don't believe their own lies. They need someone else to convince them.

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm clear on your position. You wouldn't care if civil union type set up was approved? But, you didn't want "marriage" to be allowed, is that right?

My own guess is that part of the gay agenda was to have the government allow marriage and then use that to beat up the churches and force them to recognize gay marriage which, IMO is what they really wanted in the first place. (whoever holds the agenda that is).

My only problem is as I stated dozens of pages ago, is that the government cannot grant what it does not control. It does not own the institution of marriage, it controls only the civil aspects there of. I think that governments should be allowed to grant civil unions for the purposes of legality and the things that go along with it and churches should have marriages that you can have if you want to.

 

[sky dancer]

Due to your emotional state, you have lost the ability to reason so we will get no where. Private with your sexuality? You have been pretty public about announcing it. Your actions speak so loudly I can't hear what you say. You don't have a marriage by the way, you can call it what you want, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, It ain't a buffalo.

23 years of a life faithfully committed to one another wholeheartedly is a marriage.

I was married by my spiritual teacher, a Buddhist Lama, with the full support of our sangha. I am legally married in the state of California. Like it or not, we have a marriage license. Proposition 8 for all your support was not able to undo my marriage. We are committed to each other for the rest of our lives. We have stood by each other in sickness and health. We have weathered the death of my mother and her father and brother and many close friends who died.

We have raised children.

We don't talk about our sexuality much to others. Our sex life is private and behind closed doors. We do talk about our marriage, our family to friends and acquaintences in the community.

It is you who are unreasonable and intolerant. Marriage equality is a civil rights issue. My family and my families values are as important to me as yours are to you.

Dismiss my posts if you will. You don't debate well--so good riddance, LIESPEAKER.

 

[DiveCon]

You were here, but you see the reason people keep attacking me specifically is because the truth has a certain ring to it. You can deny it using whatever Socratic argument you like, just look where it got the society of Socrates.
Mormons have taken a brave stand, with unshaking determination in the face of insults, vandalism and lies. It won't be long and won't surprise me when things go back to the way they were in 1840's Missouri when mobs assembled against us and murdered and raped our wives and children and the majority of our Men. When you stick your neck out there, somebody always wants to take a chop at it. that's why people feel the need to attack mormons, because they stand for something and don't care about "political correctness", only correctness.

well, just a hint, but the username you chose, will paint a HUGE bullseye on you
and most people that use such a username, usually dont live up to it

 

[DiveCon]

23 years of a life faithfully committed to one another wholeheartedly is a marriage.

I was married by my spiritual teacher, a Buddhist Lama, with the full support of our sangha. I am legally married in the state of California. Like it or not, we have a marriage license. Proposition 8 for all your support was not able to undo my marriage. We are committed to each other for the rest of our lives. We have stood by each other in sickness and health. We have weathered the death of my mother and her father and brother and many close friends who died.

We have raised children.

We don't talk about our sexuality much to others. Our sex life is private and behind closed doors. We do talk about our marriage, our family to friends and others in the community.

It is you who are unreasonable and intolerant. Marriage equality is a civil rights issue. My family and my families values are as important to me as yours are to you.

Dismiss my posts if you will. You don't debate well--so good riddance LIESPEAKER.

actually, you might not be legally married
that will have to be determined as to how they proceed after this vote
personally, i believe the government should get the hell out of that religious ceremony

 

[user_name_guest]

"Yes You Can't" should be the motto for gays. I hope the supporters of the gay-marriage ban would chant that. "Yes You Can't" "Yes You Can't" while showing off your wedding ring. Because if polygamist can be discriminated from having multi-wifes, then it can happen to you. I say allow multi-wives, and you can have your gay marriages. More women women, yeah yeah.

 

[sky dancer]

actually, you might not be legally married
that will have to be determined as to how they proceed after this vote
personally, i believe the government should get the hell out of that religious ceremony

I have checked and we are still married. It is the civil marriage law that the Mormons have worked hard to undo in California. They don't care if we marry in a Buddhist Lakhang.

I'm with you. The government has no business in religious ceremony. They do make civil law and civil rights however. Let LDS have their religious ceremonies of marriage. Believe me, they don't impress me as a resource for developing spiritual qualities that I value--like love, joy, compassion, equanimity.

I want to keep my civil rights as a married adult in California.

 

[sky dancer]

I have seen now in a least three different places a strange fear-mongering lie passed around Mormon circles. The lie goes like this: If Proposition 8 does not pass and same-sex marriages continue, the Mormon church will either be forced to "shut down their temples" or will do so on their own accord. Apparently, this same argument was used when the states and courts began making laws against inter-racial marriage legal.

It's absurd on the face of it. The Mormon church, or any church for that matter, hasn't EVER been forced in the U.S. to marry people they didn't want to, whether it was because they were inter-faith marriages, inter-racial marriages, marriages of people who didn't meet religious requirements (like temple recommends), etc. For 200 years that has been the case, why would that change now.

The Big Mormon Email Lie (Daddy, Papa and Me)

 

[Truthspeaker]

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm clear on your position. You wouldn't care if civil union type set up was approved? But, you didn't want "marriage" to be allowed, is that right?

My own guess is that part of the gay agenda was to have the government allow marriage and then use that to beat up the churches and force them to recognize gay marriage which, IMO is what they really wanted in the first place. (whoever holds the agenda that is).

My only problem is as I stated dozens of pages ago, is that the government cannot grant what it does not control. It does not own the institution of marriage, it controls only the civil aspects there of. I think that governments should be allowed to grant civil unions for the purposes of legality and the things that go along with it and churches should have marriages that you can have if you want to.

Sorry about the mixup, I thought you were proposing that governments get rid of marriage all together and propose civil unions only. I am for civil marriage as defined currently and religious marriage. I don't really care if gays want to have unions, I wouldn't try to stop them. But if the government said that there are no legal marriages and only civil unions, then I would not like it, but I would not need the government to recognize my marriage in order to be happy. That is what my religious marriage is for.

 

[Truthspeaker]

23 years of a life faithfully committed to one another wholeheartedly is a marriage.

I was married by my spiritual teacher, a Buddhist Lama, with the full support of our sangha. I am legally married in the state of California. Like it or not, we have a marriage license. Proposition 8 for all your support was not able to undo my marriage. We are committed to each other for the rest of our lives. We have stood by each other in sickness and health. We have weathered the death of my mother and her father and brother and many close friends who died.

We have raised children.

We don't talk about our sexuality much to others. Our sex life is private and behind closed doors. We do talk about our marriage, our family to friends and acquaintences in the community.

It is you who are unreasonable and intolerant. Marriage equality is a civil rights issue. My family and my families values are as important to me as yours are to you.

Dismiss my posts if you will. You don't debate well--so good riddance, LIESPEAKER.

Go for it. What is great about this country is that you are free to define your own existence however you will. You just can't force others to see things the way you do. I have been called names before. No big deal.

 

[Truthspeaker]

well, just a hint, but the username you chose, will paint a HUGE bullseye on you
and most people that use such a username, usually dont live up to it

Awesome!

 

[Truthspeaker]

"Yes You Can't" should be the motto for gays. I hope the supporters of the gay-marriage ban would chant that. "Yes You Can't" "Yes You Can't" while showing off your wedding ring. Because if polygamist can be discriminated from having multi-wifes, then it can happen to you. I say allow multi-wives, and you can have your gay marriages. More women women, yeah yeah.

Interesting argument but I don't agree with you.