Professor Teaches Religious People Are Retarded

[musicman]

Gosh...For a party that says it wants keep government interference in our personal lives to a minimum...the Republicans spend an awful lot of time intruding into personal decisions. Which the Schiavo case was.

One needn't look far to find examples of disappointing behavior by the Republican Party, but I remain amazed that congressional intervention in the Schiavo case is lumped in with them. Clearly, a due process issue existed. Congress is charged by the U.S. Constitution to enact laws, and determine jurisdictions. Yet, they are savaged for doing so, while the judiciary goes merrily about the business of legislating morality.

And you also seem to ahve forgotten that many of the 11th Circuit judges who ruled on the Schiavo case were conservative Republicans.

The only "rulings" handed down upheld Judge Greer as the sole finder of fact. I don't know how old you are, Bully. Do you by chance remember the story of an unfortunate New Yorker named Kitty Genovese? She was murdered in the street in full view of a dozen or more people - who ignored her desperate pleas for help. They didn't want to "get involved", you see. Tom DeLay rightly called the behavior of the federal judiciary in the Schiavo matter disgraceful - and was accused of inciting violence for his trouble. Meanwhile, the Isikoffs and Foleys spew their hatred of America with impunity. No wonder Republicans have no ballls.

You would do well to actually read the Constitution before you throw about terms like "tyrannical" and "constitution perverting".

I've read it - I understand it - and I have witnessed modern history. The XIVth Amendment has been perverted beyond recognition by tyrants who regard the Constitution as an inconvenience to their elitist agenda - "a document which will have to evolve in order to fit with the documents of other nations", according to Stephen Breyer. Republicans are far from perfect, but it is not they who work so tirelessly to pervert our way of life; it's your buddies on the other side of the aisle.

 

[manu1959]

"Originally Posted by Bullypulpit
Gosh...For a party that says it wants keep government interference in our personal lives to a minimum...the Republicans spend an awful lot of time intruding into personal decisions. Which the Schiavo case was."


i really liked the way the demoracts stood aside and di nothing during that period as well

 

[Bullypulpit]

One needn't look far to find examples of disappointing behavior by the Republican Party, but I remain amazed that congressional intervention in the Schiavo case is lumped in with them. Clearly, a due process issue existed. Congress is charged by the U.S. Constitution to enact laws, and determine jurisdictions. Yet, they are savaged for doing so, while the judiciary goes merrily about the business of legislating morality.

The Schiavo case was not an issue fpr Congress to become involved in. Bill Frist and Tom DeLay were simply throwing some raw meat to the religious far-right fringe they percieve as their base. Cases, such as Ms. Schiavo's occur every day, without the involvement of the courts, let alone Congress.

The only "rulings" handed down upheld Judge Greer as the sole finder of fact. I don't know how old you are, Bully. Do you by chance remember the story of an unfortunate New Yorker named Kitty Genovese? She was murdered in the street in full view of a dozen or more people - who ignored her desperate pleas for help. They didn't want to "get involved", you see. Tom DeLay rightly called the behavior of the federal judiciary in the Schiavo matter disgraceful - and was accused of inciting violence for his trouble. Meanwhile, the Isikoffs and Foleys spew their hatred of America with impunity. No wonder Republicans have no ballls.

Yes, I remember Kitty Genovese...And her case is in no way comparable to that of Terri Schiavo. Your ananlogy is a false one.

I've read it - I understand it - and I have witnessed modern history. The XIVth Amendment has been perverted beyond recognition by tyrants who regard the Constitution as an inconvenience to their elitist agenda - "a document which will have to evolve in order to fit with the documents of other nations", according to Stephen Breyer. Republicans are far from perfect, but it is not they who work so tirelessly to pervert our way of life; it's your buddies on the other side of the aisle.

If you want a better idea of just what you're advocating...go <a href=http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/0304/030415wagner.php>HERE</a>. The intellectual heirs of the good Rev. Rushdoony are James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Don Wildmon and Tim LaHaye, to name a few. Rev. Rushdoony preached a gospel orf "Christian Nationalism" which espouses the replacement of the Constitution by biblical law.

 

[Annie]

I posted this on another thread, links at other post:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291917&postcount=5

Professor Who Belittled Believers Drops Bid To Head Up a Department

BY JACOB GERSHMAN - Staff Reporter of the Sun
June 8, 2005


A Brooklyn College professor who described religious people as "moral retards" said he is dropping his bid to become chairman of the department of sociology after the college's president expressed outrage over his views.

 

[musicman]

The Schiavo case was not an issue fpr Congress to become involved in.

Thank you, Oliver Wendell Bullypulpit.

Bill Frist and Tom DeLay were simply throwing some raw meat to the religious far-right fringe they percieve as their base.

That's what I like about you, Bully. None of that subjective, hysterical conjecture from you - just the cold, dispassionate facts.

Cases, such as Ms. Schiavo's occur every day, without the involvement of the courts, let alone Congress.

So what? Drug deals happen every day without the involvement of the courts. Should the courts, or Congress, for that matter, ignore the matters of law that DO cross their desks - on that basis?

Yes, I remember Kitty Genovese...And her case is in no way comparable to that of Terri Schiavo. Your ananlogy is a false one.

The Schiavo case was awkward and upsetting; just inconvenient as all get out. My analogy is right on the money. Pontius Pilate comes to mind as well.

If you want a better idea of just what you're advocating...

What I'm advocating, sir, is a return to strict constitutional adherence to the separation of powers. If any group seeks to impart, to their explanation of the unprovable, the force of law - it is the secular humanists.

 

[5stringJeff]

A Brooklyn College professor who described religious people as "moral retards" said he is dropping his bid to become chairman of the department of sociology after the college's president expressed outrage over his views.

Woo-hoo! Another win for the good guys!

I wonder how long it will take for someone to cry "censorship."

 

[musicman]

Woo-hoo! Another win for the good guys!

I wonder how long it will take for someone to cry "censorship."

CENSORSHIP!

 

[Annie]

Woo-hoo! Another win for the good guys!

I wonder how long it will take for someone to cry "censorship."

The left may be in a bit of a quandry. What has been exposed as an agenda and bias is taking root and they are going to be watching their steps. We are seeing it with this university example and the Amnesty International broohaha over 'gulags'. The media will NOT change its stripes, but they are going to watch more closely for extreme cases. Universities too?

 

[Bullypulpit]

So what? Drug deals happen every day without the involvement of the courts. Should the courts, or Congress, for that matter, ignore the matters of law that DO cross their desks - on that basis?

Again, your analogy sucks. The Schiavo case was about who holds the power of attorney for someone unable to make health-care decisions for themselves. As was decided, by state and federal courts and the SCOTUS, multiple times, Terri Schiavo's husband had that right. But while the case was ongoing, it was a cash-cow for every so called "Right-to-Life" organization and religious right-wing extremist group and every politician seeking to curry favor with those groups.

The Schiavo case was awkward and upsetting; just inconvenient as all get out. My analogy is right on the money. Pontius Pilate comes to mind as well.

The only thing awkward ond upsetting to me about the Schiavo case was the uneccessary suffering to both families that it caused. And then there was the shameless profiteering by the groups mentioned above. That was truly sickening.

What I'm advocating, sir, is a return to strict constitutional adherence to the separation of powers. If any group seeks to impart, to their explanation of the unprovable, the force of law - it is the secular humanists.

That includes:

<blockquote><b>Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression</b>

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.</blockquote>

And never mind that the majority of the framers of the Constitution were Deists.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Professor Who Belittled Believers Drops Bid To Head Up a Department

BY JACOB GERSHMAN - Staff Reporter of the Sun
June 8, 2005


A Brooklyn College professor who described religious people as "moral retards" said he is dropping his bid to become chairman of the department of sociology after the college's president expressed outrage over his views.

And well he should forgo the chairmanship of the sociology department. It sounds more a case of his needing to go back for some remedial course-work.

 

[Bonnie]

And never mind that the majority of the framers of the Constitution were Deists.

Although man university professors in America today claim the founding fathers were deists, it was George Washington, as president of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, who agreed with Benjamin Franklin’s suggestion to have prayer at the convention. Franklin said after weeks of debate leading nowhere, “I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?”

From that day to this, Congress has opened with prayer offered by ministers. Two years later, in October 1789, Washington issued the first Thanksgiving Proclamation, which began: “Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits…….”

In November 1794, Washington told Congress, some of whom like Jefferson at the time, WERE deists or what we would call humanists today:

“Let us unite, therefore, in imploring the Supreme Ruler of nations, to spread his holy protection over these United States: to turn the machinations of the wicked to the confirming of our constitution: to enable us at all times to root out internal sedition, and put invasion to flight: to perpetuate to our country that prosperity, which his goodness has already conferred, and to verify the anticipations of this government being a safe guard to human rights.”

Somehow they all, including the Christians, Jews, deists and atheists, managed to survive and the country went forward to a prosperous and free destiny. President Bush or the Rev. Franklin, after this year of war, tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues and other disasters, hopefully will remind us as did Washington in 1794, that we need to unite in prayer for God’s continued protection over these United States; “to turn the machinations of the wicked to the confirming of our constitution; to enable us at all times to root out internal sedition and put invasions, [such as those that occurred on 9-11,] to flight.”

http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=2708

Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll
PRO 1

At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the Amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect. In this age there can be no substitute for Christianity. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. The great vital and conservative element in our system is the doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ."



CON 1.1

Although, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers.



PRO 2

President George Washington, September 17th, 1796

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

His Prayer At Valley Forge "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee."

"Bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son, Jesus. "Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."

CON 2.1

Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devote Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."



CON 2.2

When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr.,



CON 3

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine

To Paine belongs the honor of naming our country the United States of America. He was the first to use the name in print, and it was his own creation.



PRO 4 Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations."



CON 4.1

Patrick Henry, made a number of statements suggesting that our nation was founded on belief in God, and that it was important to acknowledge God in civic affairs, but Henry lost the battle to put religion in the Constitution. More to the point, Henry was an anti-federalist, and vigorously opposed the Constitution when Virginia discussed ratification. Quoting Henry to prove things about the constitution is like quoting the chairman of the Republican National Committee to prove things about the platform of the Democratic party.



PRO 5

Benjamin Franklin Address at the Constitutional Convention Thursday June 28, 1787

"I have lived, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?



CON 5.1

Although Franklin received religious training, his nature forced him to rebel against the irrational tenets of his parents Christianity. His Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."

PRO 6 President John Adams

"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."



CON 6.1

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed?"


Letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816



CON 6.2

In his, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

PRO 7 President Thomas Jefferson
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."



CON 7.1

Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."


PRO 8 President John Quincy Adams
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."



CON 8.1

John Quincy Adams was a Unitarian.



PRO 9 John Jay, 1777 The first Chief Justice of the United States

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and the interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."



PRO 10 James Madison

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments." David Barton's book The Myth of Separation



CON 10.1

The only problem with the above is, no such quote has ever been found among any of James Madison's writings. None of the biographers of Madison, past or present have ever run across such a quote, and most if not all would love to know where this false quote originated. Apparently, David Barton did not check the work of the secondary sources he quotes.



CON 10.2

Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."



CON 12

No one disputes the faith of our Founding Fathers. To speak of unalienable Rights being endowed by a Creator certainly shows a sensitivity to our spiritual selves. What is surprising is when fundamentalist Christians think the Founding Fathers' faith had anything to do with the Bible. The faith of many of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selected quotes from the Ayn Rand Foundation

Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”

From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”



“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”

“Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”

“...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.”


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm

 

[musicman]

Again, your analogy sucks.

No - you persist in missing the POINT of my analogy.

The Schiavo case was about who holds the power of attorney for someone unable to make health-care decisions for themselves. As was decided, by state and federal courts and the SCOTUS, multiple times, Terri Schiavo's husband had that right.

Nothing was "decided" by the other courts except that it was Greer's baby, and they wanted no part of it. It was this gutlessness for which Tom DeLay condemned them. And while Kitty screamed and begged for her life, her neighbors shut their windows and turned up their televisions.

But while the case was ongoing, it was a cash-cow for every so called "Right-to-Life" organization and religious right-wing extremist group and every politician seeking to curry favor with those groups.

Entirely subjective, and fairly dripping with your hate and prejudice.

That includes:

<blockquote><b>Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression</b>

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.</blockquote>

Interesting choice, given the fact that - through the bastardization of the XIVth Amendment, made possible by the judicial activism of your beloved left, - this bedrock principle of self-government is being turned against the American people.

And never mind that the majority of the framers of the Constitution were Deists.

Immaterial - even if true (and Bonnie has shed some serious doubt on that). Our founding fathers certainly did not advocate the state religion of secular humanism to the exclusion of all others. Religion is a matter for communities.

 

[Bullypulpit]

No - you persist in missing the POINT of my analogy.

If there was a point, I would have discerned it by now. You're simply reaching for something that is not there.

Nothing was "decided" by the other courts except that it was Greer's baby, and they wanted no part of it. It was this gutlessness for which Tom DeLay condemned them. And while Kitty screamed and begged for her life, her neighbors shut their windows and turned up their televisions.

Had they disagreed in any fundamental way with Judge Greer's decision, they would have acted upon it. It was their unwillingness to accede to the wishes of Tom DeLay and the religious right that led to DeLay's hissy fit. And Guess what, Judge Greer is a devout Catholic and a staunch Republican.

Entirely subjective, and fairly dripping with your hate and prejudice.

No, merely pointing out the facts

Immaterial - even if true (and Bonnie has shed some serious doubt on that). Our founding fathers certainly did not advocate the state religion of secular humanism to the exclusion of all others. Religion is a matter for communities.

Indeed, they did not advocate for any religion, as religion is a matter for the individual.

 

[Bullypulpit]

No - you persist in missing the POINT of my analogy.

If there was a point, I would have discerned it by now. You're simply reaching for something that is not there.

Nothing was "decided" by the other courts except that it was Greer's baby, and they wanted no part of it. It was this gutlessness for which Tom DeLay condemned them. And while Kitty screamed and begged for her life, her neighbors shut their windows and turned up their televisions.

Had they disagreed in any fundamental way with Judge Greer's decision, they would have acted upon it. It was their unwillingness to accede to the wishes of Tom DeLay and the religious right that led to DeLay's hissy fit. And Guess what, Judge Greer is a devout Catholic and a staunch Republican.

Entirely subjective, and fairly dripping with your hate and prejudice.

No, merely pointing out the facts

Immaterial - even if true (and Bonnie has shed some serious doubt on that). Our founding fathers certainly did not advocate the state religion of secular humanism to the exclusion of all others. Religion is a matter for communities.

Indeed, they did not advocate for any religion, as religion is a matter for the individual.

 

[musicman]

If there was a point, I would have discerned it by now.

Evidently not.

Had they disagreed in any fundamental way with Judge Greer's decision, they would have acted upon it.

Yeah, that's what concerns me. As much could have been said about Pilate, or Kitty Genovese's neighbors. Death before inconvenience.

It was their unwillingness to accede to the wishes of Tom DeLay and the religious right that led to DeLay's hissy fit.

Right - asking that an American citizen not be deprived of her life without due process of law. Expecting federal judges to get off their asses and hear cases , as is their sworn duty. What a lunatic.

And Guess what, Judge Greer is a devout Catholic and a staunch Republican.

So?

Indeed, they did not advocate for any religion, as religion is a matter for the individual.

Ah....cruel hope! You come so close to reason at times. And yet, if the collection of individuals who make up a community wanted the schools they pay for to teach their children Intelligent Design, you'd object, wouldn't you?

 

[Bonnie]

Originally Posted by Bullypulpit

Indeed, they did not advocate for any religion, as religion is a matter for the individual.

They certainly did advocate for Christianity, and yes as individuals they clearly brought their reverence of God-Christ into their decisions as citizens and as politicians.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Right - asking that an American citizen not be deprived of her life without due process of law. Expecting federal judges to get off their asses and hear cases , as is their sworn duty. What a lunatic.

She was not "deprived" of anything. NAture was simply allowed to take it's course.

Ah....cruel hope! You come so close to reason at times. And yet, if the collection of individuals who make up a community wanted the schools they pay for to teach their children Intelligent Design, you'd object, wouldn't you?

If we, as a society, want our children to have the best education available, that education would not include pseudo-scientific hogwash such as 'intelligent design'.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally Posted by Bullypulpit


They certainly did advocate for Christianity, and yes as individuals they clearly brought their reverence of God-Christ into their decisions as citizens and as politicians.

Dear lady, if the Founding Father's were such ardent Christians, why did they make no mention of a Chrisitan God in the Constitution? Why did they not establish a Christian state?

The did not do so because they had first hand experience with the horrors spawned by a government based upon religious principles. That expereince was with the Massachusett's Bay Colony, which was under Puritan rule. And while the Puritans orginally fled England in pursuit of religious freedom abroad...they did not tolerate religious freedom within their colony. The penalty for following any other religion or 'blasphemy' was death. Children of 16 years of age could be put to death for cursing or striking their parents. Similarly sons who would not heed the remonstrances of their parents could be put to death.

In essence, Puritan rule was no different from that of a theocracy. For a modern version of that we need look no further than Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

 

[musicman]

She was not "deprived" of anything.

Would you like to re-think that, and begin again?

NAture was simply allowed to take it's course.

Ah, yes - "when in doubt, err on the side of slow death", I always say.

If we, as a society, want our children to have the best education available, that education would not include pseudo-scientific hogwash such as 'intelligent design'.

In the first place, which segment of this "we" gets to make that determination - the parents who pay the taxes and raise the children? Obviously not, in your world. Some "elite" get to say "this is best" or "that is truth". You may or may not have read the U.S. Constitution, but you have certainly failed to understand it.

In the second place, your explanation of the unprovable is no more scientific than mine, and a hell of a lot less in line with common sense.

 

[musicman]

Children of 16 years of age could be put to death for cursing or striking their parents.

Would have meant the death penalty at MY house, too.

No trial, either.