Pro-life and pro-death penalty

[DKSuddeth]

Could you maybe answer the question realistically?

It's real to me, and many others as well.

I'm almost sickened that you have the balls to ask this. I thought it was possible, but really didn't expect you to.

Thats too bad for you, but currently, Its a point of difference when life begins. At this point the law sides with the second trimester. If other science proves differently later, then I'll be happy to re-adjust my thinking.

You should also know that I'm not afraid to ask a question or point out when I think someones wrong so you shouldn't have been surprised one bit. If you weren't ready for the answer, don't ask the question.

Again some choose to ignore them, some don't, but people don't just make them up on their own.

This is almost humorous. Are you trying to say that theres only one set of morals that everyone should follow? That those who claim to not believe in those specific morals, but believe in morals different from what you think is right are really just ignoring them?

 

[jon_forward]

Dk, I think with the bill that pasted the law may in fact be at conception or very shortly there after..if the law realizes that harm done to an unborn child can be punished under the law..that it recognizes life before the 2nd trimester....

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
It's real to me, and many others as well.

okay, then what are the real consequences? Or do you mean Karma is real to you?

Thats too bad for you, but currently, Its a point of difference when life begins. At this point the law sides with the second trimester. If other science proves differently later, then I'll be happy to re-adjust my thinking.

You should also know that I'm not afraid to ask a question or point out when I think someones wrong so you shouldn't have been surprised one bit. If you weren't ready for the answer, don't ask the question.

You, yourself have argued many a time that the law is not always right. This is one of those times. You would let the law or science dictate to you when life begins? And change your mind to whatever science says? Nice set of morals ya got there.

For me life would begin when an egg is fertalized. That's when a new life has been created. We can get into semantics all you like about what mass and configuration of cells constitutes life. It starts at inception.

This is almost humorous. Are you trying to say that theres only one set of morals that everyone should follow? That those who claim to not believe in those specific morals, but believe in morals different from what you think is right are really just ignoring them?

uuuuuuhhhh.... yeah. It's not like these are real complex issues. Things like holding sacred innocent life, don't steal, don't commit adultery, etc. It's not like there is a huge amount of principles out there to live by. Just a few basic ones, ya know ten commandment type stuff, to live a good life. And news flash the vast majority of people on Earth believe in these things. They didn't just pop into their heads out of thin air.

 

[Zhukov]

DKSuddeth
but currently, Its a point of difference when life begins. At this point the law sides with the second trimester.

Bern80
For me life would begin when an egg is fertalized. That's when a new life has been created.

For both of you:

Is it alright to pull the plug on a brain dead patient?

We will assume that they've previously stated that this would be their desire given the circumstances. And if you like, does your answer change if their desire concerning this was not made clear?

If you believe this is alright, why? The person is still unquestionably alive.

If you believe this it is not alright, why not? The 'person' is no longer there, and never will be again. What is left is little more than meat.

What makes a human life?

 

[Bern80]

For me it is a question of viability. The unborn child is very viable as a human life. The vegetable, for lack of a better term, is not.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Bern80
For me it is a question of viability. The unborn child is very viable as a human life. The vegetable, for lack of a better term, is not.

Well a brain dead patient in a hospital is viable. A body can be maintained in such a state as long as autonomic impulses persist and age allows.

But I take from your response that it is alright to pull the plug on a brain dead patient. In that case, though it is a viable human, it lacks sentience, an empty shell. So sentience, or a lack thereof, is enough justification for you, in this instance. Is that correct?

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Zhukov
Well a brain dead patient in a hospital is viable. A body can be maintained in such a state as long as autonomic impulses persist and age allows.

But I take from your response that it is alright to pull the plug on a brain dead patient. In that case, though it is a viable human, it lacks sentience, an empty shell. So sentience, or a lack thereof, is enough justification for you, in this instance. Is that correct?

No that would not be correct. Going w/ your premise I assume that this hypothetical person would remain brain dead forever and doing nothing else but remian in a bed on life support. So lets say we keep said individual alive. How is this person viable? That is, how is this person or anyone else going to get this person to do anything else, but lay in a bed. If that is the case then the person is essentially taking up space and serving no other redeeming purpose, other than maybe giving a loved one a false sense of hope.

It has nothing to do w/ sentience for me. As I said earlier life begins at inception and I am well aware that a fertilized egg isn't exactley sentient. It's about the viability and potential to be a productive member of society. Something someone permantley on life support can't do. The babies potential however is endless. Two people made a choice to kick start that potential. They should not have the right to take it away.

 

[cptpwichita]

abortion is wrong period.certainly you would say that when a baby is born it is then a human but how has it changed say from just a few hours ago?location does not make one alive or dead does it?or you may say when it starts to breath air..well some people need help to breath by machines does that make them non-human?or its ability to think..severly retarded people have a right to life do they not?or maybe when it starts to look human but then again some people look quite un-human.as medical technology advances babies will be able to survive earlier and earlier outside the womb.who knows who the next einstein will be maybe someone who was aborted had the cure to cancer or solved the problem of cold fusion we don't know.abortion should not be a method of birth controll we as a people need to be more responsible and if we are going to have sex have safe sex it will prevent abortions,stop stds and decrease the number of people getting government assistance such as welfare.

 

[Avatar4321]

The only safe sex is Chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards. I cant seem to comprehend why leftist think abstinence causes people to get STDS and pregnant. I read an article where some self apointed experts went on about how if we teach abstinence and encourage people to wait for sex, somehow the STD rate will rise. How the heck does the STD rate rise when you dont have sex? its mind boggling to try to comprehend their logic.

 

[Johnney]

clap of the hand?

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
The only safe sex is Chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards. I cant seem to comprehend why leftist think abstinence causes people to get STDS and pregnant. I read an article where some self apointed experts went on about how if we teach abstinence and encourage people to wait for sex, somehow the STD rate will rise. How the heck does the STD rate rise when you dont have sex? its mind boggling to try to comprehend their logic.

Probably becasue the left takes a more realist approach to the subject. They think that people are going to have sex anyway regardless of teaching abstinence, so we might as wll pass out contraception so they don't have to afraid to ask and thus have unprotected sex

 

[acludem]

You are right Bern. I have always argued that you should teach that abstinence is the only way to know for 100% certain that you will not get pregnant or get an STD. However we also must live in the real world, and reality is that some kids will have sex. Therefore teaching kids about condoms and other contraceptives is necessary. Saying that by teaching kids about condoms is encouraging to have sex is like saying teaching someone how to use a gun properly is encouraging them to go out and kill someone.

As far as being Pro-choice and anti-abortion, yes I believe abortion is immoral. I also believe it is immoral to force one's own morals on another person. Therefore I oppose efforts to have the government make such difficult moral and individual decisions for people.

I oppose the death penalty because I do not believe it can be meated out fairly. There have been many cases of innocent people being sent to death row. Several have been put to death with significant questions of their innocence. The death penalty is not about justice, it is about revenge.

acludem

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by acludem
As far as being Pro-choice and anti-abortion, yes I believe abortion is immoral. I also believe it is immoral to force one's own morals on another person. Therefore I oppose efforts to have the government make such difficult moral and individual decisions for people.

You are similar to DK in that you seem to think we all come up w/ our own moral code. I don't believe this to be true because w/ enough rationalization one can convince themselves that just about anything is okay. I don't belive there is such a thing as one's own moral code. Morality is extrinsic. Some peole simply choose to ignore or rationalize their way into thinking something is okay. For this reason I don't think you can "push" morals on people. You can push values maybe but morals and values are different things. I doesn't matter if I "think" abortion is okay, or right, or wrong. It doesn't change the fact that IT IS wrong. THAT is a moral because it exists regardless of anyone's opinion.

oppose the death penalty because I do not believe it can be meated out fairly. There have been many cases of innocent people being sent to death row. Several have been put to death with significant questions of their innocence. The death penalty is not about justice, it is about revenge.

acludem

The Death Penalty is about justic for me. I don't see why someone who feels they have the right to take a life should be entitled to keep their own. There are certain people who murder who are beyond rehabilitation and serve no redeeming purpose to society and I see no point in keeping them around.

 

[cptpwichita]

i also believe in letting teens have the knowledege to keep themselves safe and healthy by letting them know whats out there and how to stop it and giving them the means to stop it.i believe abstinence training would be best but we have to be realists. i read a report that said half of all young men and women will contract a sexually transmitted disease by the age of 25.abortion should not be used as a means of birth control save rape,incest and health of the mother(although the last could be interpreted several ways thats the problem).a partial birth abortion ban should be supported by all its a barbaric practice.it does seem funny to me though that those who are most opposed to abortion also tend to be against birth control which makes no sense to me because of the huge number of babies being born out of wedlock puts a tremendous financial burden on this country and will in most cases pin the woman into a life of poverty and limited opportunity.
capital punishment seems to me to bring some closure to the victims family but isn't it an easy escape..i would be more worried as a criminal of spending the rest of my life locked in a cage replaying in my mind all my mistakes but,then again prison life as it is now isn't really HARD TIME sure you don't get hbo and cinemax but you do get basic cable,3 square meals,free health care,a library,classes,weights and exercise equiptment,sex if you don't mind having it with the same gender.looks like we need prison reform.also the death penalty is not distributed fairly and with all the appeals and legal manuevering the tax payers pick up a pretty big check just to get the guy in old sparky.i say make prisons hard labor camps without alot of the extras the cons are getting now.other than that i am open to suggestions.

 

[conservative86]

Pro-choice and anti-death penalty is on all accounts the ultimate oxymoron. Why is it insane to put to death a serial rapist but want to at least give an innocent unborn child a chance? 100 years ago, the concept of killing your own child could not even come close to being fathomed. I still find it hard to fathom today. But liberalism is destroying our country and as a student I can honestly say secularism and lack of discipline have been two of the most tragic effects on society and schools. If you use drugs, you deserve the death penalty, most definitely, as well as all homosexuals. Abortion lies in the realm of parental selfishness. Notice how illegitimacy, cohabitation, and fatherlessness plays a role in abortion.

 

[jimnyc]

Welcome to the board, conservative86

 

[conservative86]

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed"

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by conservative86
Pro-choice and anti-death penalty is on all accounts the ultimate oxymoron. Why is it insane to put to death a serial rapist but want to at least give an innocent unborn child a chance? 100 years ago, the concept of killing your own child could not even come close to being fathomed. I still find it hard to fathom today. But liberalism is destroying our country and as a student I can honestly say secularism and lack of discipline have been two of the most tragic effects on society and schools. If you use drugs, you deserve the death penalty, most definitely, as well as all homosexuals. Abortion lies in the realm of parental selfishness. Notice how illegitimacy, cohabitation, and fatherlessness plays a role in abortion.

Hey conservative86, I agree with you on a lot, but you have hard, hard edge of judgement. Just in case you were in the mood to be told about yourself. The death penalty for drug users? Is that really what you think? Are you a fabricated persona of some kind?

Who are you conservative86?

 

[jon_forward]

Originally posted by conservative86
Pro-choice and anti-death penalty is on all accounts the ultimate oxymoron. Why is it insane to put to death a serial rapist but want to at least give an innocent unborn child a chance? 100 years ago, the concept of killing your own child could not even come close to being fathomed. I still find it hard to fathom today. But liberalism is destroying our country and as a student I can honestly say secularism and lack of discipline have been two of the most tragic effects on society and schools. If you use drugs, you deserve the death penalty, most definitely, as well as all homosexuals. Abortion lies in the realm of parental selfishness. Notice how illegitimacy, cohabitation, and fatherlessness plays a role in abortion.

you do realize you are on the same side as extremist Islam dont you? I will enjoy my bong and say a prayer for you...you need it

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by jon_forward
you do realize you are on the same side as extremist Islam dont you? I will enjoy my bong and say a prayer for you...you need it

I set my clock forward for a preemptive 4:20 strike as well. Do all conservatives smoke weed these days? What's up with this. We're able to free our minds from the liberal based addled notions of concensus reality I suppose. Partay-on, Garth!