CDZ POLL: The "Is It Racist" Quiz

[Coyote]

I don't see how the first four could be considered racist

Some do, because they're looking for any excuse to "see" it. Even if they have to make something up.
.

I think there is a bit of a grey area - not necessarily because they're looking for any excuse to see it - though I agree that is certainly the case with some.

I think some people use more mainstream and acceptable statements as a way of legitimizing their views...they aren't really "racist" if they they just say one way. It's like I pointed out earlier - the way antisemites choose to phrase their statements as opposing Zionism instead of Jews. Certainly some are not antisemitic, but it's also become a cover for antisemites to legitimize their views in the mainstream.

It is also why INTENT matters, and intent isn't always so clear immediately.

For example, I'll go back to the birther controversy. Why was it so sustained with Obama, but put down pretty quickly with McCain? I think in some people there was a hidden unacknowledged fear that a black president would be just for black people, and that perhaps his election allowed uncertainty, fear, bigotry and even racism to bubble to the surface.

Another example could be the treatment of BlackLivesMatter which has been roundly demonized. As a group it has little control over what people do in it's name other then denouncing violence which it has. Yet has been denounced as racist and terrorists. It's goal is to bring attention to the number of unarmed black men killed by police gunfire. In several cases, police shot an unarmed man in very questionable circumstances. Compare the rhetoric and character assassination against the black "thugs" vs a similar incident - the FBI shooting of Finicum. Similar circumstances - but Finicum is not a white "thug" he is a patriot.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't see how the first four could be considered racist

Some do, because they're looking for any excuse to "see" it. Even if they have to make something up.
.

I think there is a bit of a grey area - not necessarily because they're looking for any excuse to see it - though I agree that is certainly the case with some.

I think some people use more mainstream and acceptable statements as a way of legitimizing their views...they aren't really "racist" if they they just say one way. It's like I pointed out earlier - the way antisemites choose to phrase their statements as opposing Zionism instead of Jews. Certainly some are not antisemitic, but it's also become a cover for antisemites to legitimize their views in the mainstream.

It is also why INTENT matters, and intent isn't always so clear immediately.

For example, I'll go back to the birther controversy. Why was it so sustained with Obama, but put down pretty quickly with McCain? I think in some people there was a hidden unacknowledged fear that a black president would be just for black people, and that perhaps his election allowed uncertainty, fear, bigotry and even racism to bubble to the surface.

Another example could be the treatment of BlackLivesMatter which has been roundly demonized. As a group it has little control over what people do in it's name other then denouncing violence which it has. Yet has been denounced as racist and terrorists. It's goal is to bring attention to the number of unarmed black men killed by police gunfire. In several cases, police shot an unarmed man in very questionable circumstances. Compare the rhetoric and character assassination against the black "thugs" vs a similar incident - the FBI shooting of Finicum. Similar circumstances - but Finicum is not a white "thug" he is a patriot.

Forgive me if I'm caught a little off balance, I'm not used to posters who talk about "grey areas". It's usually so binary here.

Three things: First, intent absolutely matters, but it's usually ignored because those who want to scream RACIST know that admitting that would mitigate their opportunity to do so. So they just ASSUME intent and begin screaming.

Second, there can be no doubt that ACTUAL racists have attached themselves to Trump. It's not because he himself has been overtly racist, it's because he's close enough. They're angry that their country is changing and clearly don't have the capacity to deal with it, so he represents their primal scream. Their last gasp.

Third, those who automatically denounce or mock groups like BLM do so, I think, because they are trained to. Listen to Limbaugh or Hannity or Levin and you can see how this has happened. Completely binary, zero sum, all or nothing, don't give one damn inch. Personally, I think the thought processes these people have installed in the minds of their fans may be the single biggest contributing factor to our inability to communicate today.
.

 

[JoeB131]

Some do, because they're looking for any excuse to "see" it. Even if they have to make something up.

Or they are racist.

1- They were all for it when it was called "RomneyCare", but then the black guy did it. RACISM.

2- I don't like Obama - because, hey, he has a funny name and he's black. not because of his policies, since they are the same policies the white Presidents have. Racism.

3 - You don't think Obama was born in America. Um, yeah, when you ignore the evidence he was, and that even if he wasn't, it makes no difference as to his eligibility to be president, then you want to think he wasn't born here because- Racism.

4 _ why don't you hang around with people of other colors?

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, wait, I'll save Mac the trouble of answering.

See... seee... exactly what I am talking about.

 

[MizMolly]

Some do, because they're looking for any excuse to "see" it. Even if they have to make something up.

Or they are racist.

1- They were all for it when it was called "RomneyCare", but then the black guy did it. RACISM.

2- I don't like Obama - because, hey, he has a funny name and he's black. not because of his policies, since they are the same policies the white Presidents have. Racism.

3 - You don't think Obama was born in America. Um, yeah, when you ignore the evidence he was, and that even if he wasn't, it makes no difference as to his eligibility to be president, then you want to think he wasn't born here because- Racism.

4 _ why don't you hang with people of other colors?

1. RomneyCare was only in Massachusetts.

2. I don't like Obama, you can dislike people for other reasons than race. I don't like Trump, again not a racial issue.

3. Being skeptical about his birthplace is not racist.

4. Most people hang with people of their own race, such as family, I hang with my family, which is white, I am not racist for doing so.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I don't see how the first four could be considered racist

Some do, because they're looking for any excuse to "see" it. Even if they have to make something up.
.

I think there is a bit of a grey area - not necessarily because they're looking for any excuse to see it - though I agree that is certainly the case with some.

I think some people use more mainstream and acceptable statements as a way of legitimizing their views...they aren't really "racist" if they they just say one way. It's like I pointed out earlier - the way antisemites choose to phrase their statements as opposing Zionism instead of Jews. Certainly some are not antisemitic, but it's also become a cover for antisemites to legitimize their views in the mainstream.

It is also why INTENT matters, and intent isn't always so clear immediately.

For example, I'll go back to the birther controversy. Why was it so sustained with Obama, but put down pretty quickly with McCain? I think in some people there was a hidden unacknowledged fear that a black president would be just for black people, and that perhaps his election allowed uncertainty, fear, bigotry and even racism to bubble to the surface.

Another example could be the treatment of BlackLivesMatter which has been roundly demonized. As a group it has little control over what people do in it's name other then denouncing violence which it has. Yet has been denounced as racist and terrorists. It's goal is to bring attention to the number of unarmed black men killed by police gunfire. In several cases, police shot an unarmed man in very questionable circumstances. Compare the rhetoric and character assassination against the black "thugs" vs a similar incident - the FBI shooting of Finicum. Similar circumstances - but Finicum is not a white "thug" he is a patriot.

You mention intent quite a bit, so let me ask you this:

If it was late at night, and a man was beating your head into the pavement until you could feel your blood forming a pool beneath your head, and he didn't stop despite your calls for help, would you think he was just introducing yourself, or was going to do you serious harm? How would you gauge his intent?

If you were a cop, and a lumbering 300 pound mountain of a man tried to wrestle away you gun from you, and then refused to stop as he was lumbering towards you menacingly, would you think he was just being friendly, or would you think his intent in trying to get your gun was not in your best interest?

The reason I ask, is that the BLM movement sprung from these incidents where intent WAS'T taken into account and only skin color was. It was all about divorcing actions from context so as to create the public impression that people protecting themselves from black criminals were racist for doing so. The impression is more important to the movement than the behavior, and so BLM is really all about removing consequences for black criminality than anything else.

It's not like we are talking MLK, here, but a very cynical organization using the race card to further an agenda, namely, to create even MORE leeway for black people to indulge in problematic behavior by intimidating people into thinking that it is a racist act to oppose such behavior -- up to and including protecting their own lives.

 

[Mac1958]

Some do, because they're looking for any excuse to "see" it. Even if they have to make something up.

Or they are racist.

1- They were all for it when it was called "RomneyCare", but then the black guy did it. RACISM.

2- I don't like Obama - because, hey, he has a funny name and he's black. not because of his policies, since they are the same policies the white Presidents have. Racism.

3 - You don't think Obama was born in America. Um, yeah, when you ignore the evidence he was, and that even if he wasn't, it makes no difference as to his eligibility to be president, then you want to think he wasn't born here because- Racism.

4 _ why don't you hang with people of other colors?

1. RomneyCare was only in Massachusetts.

2. I don't like Obama, you can dislike people for other reasons than race. I don't like Trump, again not a racial issue.

3. Being skeptical about his birthplace is not racist.

4. Most people hang with people of their own race, such as family, I hang with my family, which is white, I am not racist for doing so.

As I said, some people can "see" racism anywhere. For them, if you don't wholeheartedly embrace, defend and spin for every minority no matter what, and if you don't display 24 hour White Guilt, you must be a racist. Lazy, shallow thinking.

The word means nothing at this point. The actual definition - thinking that a minority is inferior to you and/or yours - has been diluted into nothing, by people who want nothing more than to just put you on the defensive. And that's a tragedy.
.

 

[JoeB131]

1. RomneyCare was only in Massachusetts.

Except that in 2008, Romney said it should be the model for the whole nation. And Republicans agreed with him. He didn't get the nomination in 2008 because the Evangelicals wouldn't vote for a Mormon. But they were totally good with his plan to enrich big insurance by making everyone buy insurance.

Then the Black Guy did what he suggested.

And suddenly, Romney stopped talking about RomneyCare, and the Evangelicals stopped talking about Mormonism. Romney could have worshiped Dread C'thulhu and made virgin sacrifices to bring the Old Ones back, and the Evangelicals still would have supported him because OH MY GOD, THERE'S A NEGRO IN THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!

2. I don't like Obama, you can dislike people for other reasons than race. I don't like Trump, again not a racial issue.

Yeah, but you see, you can't have a conversation with an Obama Hater without it boiling down to their racism. Just give them time.

3. Being skeptical about his birthplace is not racist.

Well, it is if it was proven again and again that he was born in Hawaii, and you guys embrace the guy who made wild claims he was born in Kenya.

I'm sorry, has ANY other president or candidate ever had to answer questions repeatedly about where he was born?

Nope? Just the black guy? Isn't that special.

 

[JoeB131]

If it was late at night, and a man was beating your head into the pavement until you could feel your blood forming a pool beneath your head, and he didn't stop despite your calls for help, would you think he was just introducing yourself, or was going to do you serious harm? How would you gauge his intent?

Yeah, I guess if you take Zimmerman at his word. Given he's been arrested numerous times before and after the incident for acts of violence, I kind of don't.

If you were a cop, and a lumbering 300 pound mountain of a man tried to wrestle away you gun from you, and then refused to stop as he was lumbering towards you menacingly, would you think he was just being friendly, or would you think his intent in trying to get your gun was not in your best interest?

He was 100 feet away when he was shot. Not an immediate threat. Again, the problem here is you take the cop completely at his word, and ignore witnesses who say, "The kid had his hands up!"

The reason I ask, is that the BLM movement sprung from these incidents where intent WAS'T taken into account and only skin color was. It was all about divorcing actions from context so as to create the public impression that people protecting themselves from black criminals were racist for doing so. The impression is more important to the movement than the behavior, and so BLM is really all about removing consequences for black criminality than anything else.

Except neither Brown nor Martin had criminal records. And sorry, no, I don't think you should get the death penalty for jaywalking or being on the wrong block.

 

[JoeB131]

As I said, some people can "see" racism anywhere. For them, if you don't wholeheartedly embrace, defend and spin for every minority no matter what, and if you don't display 24 hour White Guilt, you must be a racist. Lazy, shallow thinking.

The word means nothing at this point. The actual definition - thinking that a minority is inferior to you and/or yours - has been diluted into nothing, by people who want nothing more than to just put you on the defensive. And that's a tragedy.

No, guy, the tragedy is that you are trying to mainstream this guy...

The poor dear doesn't have anything, so that's why it's okay that he voted for Trump.

I can cite dozens of examples of how resumes with black names don't get call backs, or how cops treat black folks with toy guns compared to white folks with real guns.

But I will give you a better example. One of my better Old Bosses. One I would almost say nice things about.

Well over the course of 2012, we had three people leave our department.

A Chinese woman who had been with the company for 9 years.

A Black woman who had been with the company for 2 years.

A young blonde intern who had spent three months with us in the Summer.

Now- guess which one of those three did he take time out of his busy schedule to join the department on for the going away luncheon.

Come on. Guess.

I don't think you have to guess too hard.

And I never heard this guy blurt anything out, not once, to sound like the guy up top.

But you get more acknowledgement for being a pretty blonde than you do for being a middle-aged Asian woman.

See the problem here, buddy. Not all racism has to involve cross burning.

 

[SeaGal]

Mac, in my opinion...

Only #7 is classically racist. The rest can be a combination of bigotry, prejudice, lack of opportunity (#4), partisanship, observation or policy disagreements...and is displayed across all racial, ethnic and philosophical lines.

#6 based on race, ethnicity, age or philosophy/religion is the most ominous because it can advocate, usually the government, to 'punish' a group of people based on characteristics, not behavior. An extreme example would be genocide, which is still happening in the world today and is not necessarily racially motivated. A less ominous example would be profiling in high crime, or high risk target areas - such as airports where the physical safety of other people is at stake...or a country discharging its duty to protect the well being of its citizens by determining who can enter the country, and who cannot.

Though a sticky wicket, there is a difference between the caution of extra scrutiny and the assumption of guilt with a denial of due process.

 

[MizMolly]

1. RomneyCare was only in Massachusetts.

Except that in 2008, Romney said it should be the model for the whole nation. And Republicans agreed with him. He didn't get the nomination in 2008 because the Evangelicals wouldn't vote for a Mormon. But they were totally good with his plan to enrich big insurance by making everyone buy insurance.

Then the Black Guy did what he suggested.

And suddenly, Romney stopped talking about RomneyCare, and the Evangelicals stopped talking about Mormonism. Romney could have worshiped Dread C'thulhu and made virgin sacrifices to bring the Old Ones back, and the Evangelicals still would have supported him because OH MY GOD, THERE'S A NEGRO IN THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!

2. I don't like Obama, you can dislike people for other reasons than race. I don't like Trump, again not a racial issue.

Yeah, but you see, you can't have a conversation with an Obama Hater without it boiling down to their racism. Just give them time.

3. Being skeptical about his birthplace is not racist.

Well, it is if it was proven again and again that he was born in Hawaii, and you guys embrace the guy who made wild claims he was born in Kenya.

I'm sorry, has ANY other president or candidate ever had to answer questions repeatedly about where he was born?

Nope? Just the black guy? Isn't that special.

You guys? I didnt question his birthplace, others did. Again making something about race all the time gets old

 

[Mac1958]

Though a sticky wicket, there is a difference between the caution of extra scrutiny and the assumption of guilt with a denial of due process.

That's one of the keys to this behavior - the immediate assumption that a person is a racist based on the thinnest of evidence. And really, it's probably not even an assumption - it is a weapon, a technique to put a target on the defensive and control the conversation.

Those of us who would like to see race relations improve, to see real healing take place, are acting under an incorrect assumption: That people who push this stuff want the same thing. They do not. They're simply waiting for demographics to work to their advantage. They thought that Obama's win in 2008 was The Beginning, but they were a little early. They exposed themselves for what they are, and annoyed just barely enough people to get Trump elected.

I'd guess that in 10 to 20 years they'll have what they want. And selfishly, my beautiful mixed race daughters will no doubt benefit. But that's not the way I want them to win. Fortunately, they have been raised on the notion that it is effort and merit that matter, not skin color or gender.
.

 

[SeaGal]

That's one of the keys to this behavior - the immediate assumption that a person is a racist based on the thinnest of evidence. And really, it's probably not even an assumption - it is a weapon, a technique to put a target on the defensive and control the conversation.

Those of us who would like to see race relations improve, to see real healing take place, are acting under an incorrect assumption: That people who push this stuff want the same thing. They do not. They're simply waiting for demographics to work to their advantage. They thought that Obama's win in 2008 was The Beginning, but they were a little early. They exposed themselves for what they are, and annoyed just barely enough people to get Trump elected.

I'd guess that in 10 to 20 years they'll have what they want. And selfishly, my beautiful mixed race daughters will no doubt benefit. But that's not the way I want them to win. Fortunately, they have been raised on the notion that it is effort and merit that matter, not skin color or gender.
.

You're right - charges of racism/misogyny etc. have been weaponized for the purpose of avoiding rational discussion and logical conclusion. As a 60's child, I believe the 'equal rights' movements succeeded far sooner than the social warriors were ready to lay down their weapons and enjoy victory.

Of course, there is the power/profit motive in continuing a battle already won. I call those battles won for this reason - prejudice or preference is allowable in a free society, it's a construct of human nature and not always harmful. Blindness to color or gender is imperative in the government/justice system of a free society though. A black CEO who prefers to hire 30's something black men should be able to do as he sees fit without government repercussion. Only when a government is restrained from bestowing benefits, or advantages to its citizens based on creed, race, gender or age (institutionalized bias) will we live in a truly merit based free world.

The worst offenders today, maybe unintentionally, are those who believe that people who look alike think alike - and are incapable of success without their 'superior' intervention.

If officially sanctioned racism in our past was evil - it is no less evil now...no matter the skin color.

 

[JoeB131]

Those of us who would like to see race relations improve, to see real healing take place, are acting under an incorrect assumption: That people who push this stuff want the same thing. They do not. They're simply waiting for demographics to work to their advantage. They thought that Obama's win in 2008 was The Beginning, but they were a little early. They exposed themselves for what they are, and annoyed just barely enough people to get Trump elected.

This is where you are confused. I didn't even vote for Obama in 2008, but I thought the fact he could win showed how much progress we had made.

Then I saw how much the right wing completely lost their stuff over his election. Birtherism, screaming about Saul Alinski and other nonsense, opposing their own ideas because Obama embraced them.

And again, Trump didn't change any minds. He had the same 45% who voted for McCain, the same 47% who voted for Romney.

What changed were a bunch of people voted for third party characters because she was "Just as bad".

You see, bud, Hillary was hte kind of third way, let's appeal to the bubbas kind of candidate your side always wanted. You got what you wanted, you lost badly, and then you are trying to put your foulup off on other people.

 

[JoeB131]

Of course, there is the power/profit motive in continuing a battle already won. I call those battles won for this reason - prejudice or preference is allowable in a free society, it's a construct of human nature and not always harmful. Blindness to color or gender is imperative in the government/justice system of a free society though. A black CEO who prefers to hire 30's something black men should be able to do as he sees fit without government repercussion. Only when a government is restrained from bestowing benefits, or advantages to its citizens based on creed, race, gender or age (institutionalized bias) will we live in a truly merit based free world.

Oh, look, another one who believes in Libertarian Fairy Dust.

Here's the thing. If there were a bunch of black CEO's out there only hiring young black men for the positions, you guys would be the ones SCREAMING for affirmative action.

But since it's white guys mostly hiring other white guys, that makes it okay. Freeeeeedom!

The worst offenders today, maybe unintentionally, are those who believe that people who look alike think alike - and are incapable of success without their 'superior' intervention.

No, we are just realistic.

Again, I cited the case of my boss, whom while I thought was a truly awful manager, who could not make time for the going away luncheons for two minority women who had been with his company for years, but man, the pretty young white intern... clear my calendar for that, baby!

Now, was did he wake up being a racist jerk? Um. No. I'm sure if I asked him about it, he'll claim he was really busy on those two days. (Doing what, I'm not sure, he was in pure "don't give a flip mode" of putting in six hour days at that point).

But it shows the bias. Multiply that bias by a hundred little decisions and slights, and you get a pattern. There's a reason why the Chinese lady left, she felt he really didn't like her. Naturally, she was able to land a pretty good gig somewhere else, because she was a highly experienced buyer who spoke Mandarin.

Oh, he also rehired two of his white drinking buddies, both of whom quit the company. One of them he hired for a position he was in no way qualified for, and he had to fire a black girl to make room for him.

If officially sanctioned racism in our past was evil - it is no less evil now...no matter the skin color.

But unofficially sanctioned racism is okay?

 

[SeaGal]

The worst offenders today, maybe unintentionally, are those who believe that people who look alike think alike - and are incapable of success without their 'superior' intervention.

No, we are just realistic.

I rest my case.

If officially sanctioned racism in our past was evil - it is no less evil now...no matter the skin color.

But unofficially sanctioned racism is okay?

Define 'unofficially sanctioned racism'.

 

[usmbguest5318]

If officially sanctioned racism in our past was evil - it is no less evil now...no matter the skin color.

But unofficially sanctioned racism is okay?

Define 'unofficially sanctioned racism'.

Define 'unofficially sanctioned racism'.

Seriously? You used the term "officially sanctioned racism." He appends the "un-" prefix to "officially" and suddenly you don't know what the term means. Really?

 

[JoeB131]

Define 'unofficially sanctioned racism'.

The Good old boy network. I pretty much described in detail how a qualified black woman was fired so my wonderful boss (not even the worst person I ever worked for, oddly enough. I can think of three who were worse!) could rehire one of his drinking buddies who had previously quit and had no qualifications for the position.

 

[usmbguest5318]

The Good old boy network. I pretty much described in detail how a qualified black woman was fired so my wonderful boss (not even the worst person I ever worked for, oddly enough. I can think of three who were worse!) could rehire one of his drinking buddies who had previously quit and had no qualifications for the position.

The Good old boy network.

The OBN is without question alive and well, albeit transformed from what it was some 60+ years ago; however, among its members whom I know (practically every human I met prior to matriculating in college), few to none these days confer favors based, AFAIK, on race. I suppose to outsiders it may look that way, particularly when the favored and disfavored are of differing races, but I can identify only one instance in some 50 years in which race had something to do with it. Obviously, my experiences and observations are just that, and not necessarily indicative if what most OBN members do or don't do.