Poll: GOP image goes from bad to worse

[WillowTree]

I'm glad people stopped listening to people like you back in 2006. If only they wised up before the 2004 election, we wouldn't be in this mess. But Bush and the GOP scared people like you into voting for Bush again and now you see what your decision has done to the country and citizens you supposedly love.

You don't love anything but yourself. And you don't realize you vote against your own self interest.

So who did you vote for douche bag? McCain? Barr?

Jsanders, you suck buddy.

I rule. I won! Now for the next 2 years, please shut the fuck up buddy. No, seriously. [/QUOTE]




don't work that way buddy,, that's why I'm ashamed of you and your ilk,, ashamed of what this country has become!! roll in yer hate! wallow away.

 

[WillowTree]

Again, I didn't vote for Bush, not even once. I was very anti-Bush before his first term, and he certainly didn't improve his image with me over his eight years in office. But I'm not naive enough to think that Bush represents all Republicans, nor am I ignorant enough to think that Republicans are solely responsible for the problems we're facing now. You are, and that's your problem. You think Republicans are the disease, and you think Democrats are the cure. You're wrong, and it's attitudes like yours that creates messes like the one we're in now. It's your exact opposite that put Republicans in complete control of the government for six years. Now the tables have been flipped, and the Democrats will now be the blame for all the problems.

Your juvenile response speaks for itself. Your negative rep even moreso. "A B conversation so C your way out." Really? It's a public forum, and it's a conversation you didn't even start. Do you not like it when people point out your obvious partisanship and your lack of insight into the real cause of the problems.

Who did I vote for? No one. I left that part of my ballot blank. Thanks.

he's telling you he's a communist and does not believe in free speech! listen to him?

 

[sealybobo]

Again, I didn't vote for Bush, not even once. I was very anti-Bush before his first term, and he certainly didn't improve his image with me over his eight years in office. But I'm not naive enough to think that Bush represents all Republicans, nor am I ignorant enough to think that Republicans are solely responsible for the problems we're facing now. You are, and that's your problem. You think Republicans are the disease, and you think Democrats are the cure. You're wrong, and it's attitudes like yours that creates messes like the one we're in now. It's your exact opposite that put Republicans in complete control of the government for six years. Now the tables have been flipped, and the Democrats will now be the blame for all the problems.


Who did I vote for? No one. I left that part of my ballot blank. Thanks.

Then what is the answer J? Revolution? Get rid of both parties? Won't the new parties be corrupt too?

I'm not saying the Democrats are perfect. I'm saying that the GOP from 2000-2008 fucked this country up. BY THEMSELVES!!! On purpose! They even said the economy was great up until January. What was that all about? We/I said the economy was not good, and it turns out I was right. They said the economy was great, and they were wrong. Actually, the rich got richer so for them, they were right. But for you and I? They were dead wrong.

They purposely emptied the treasury and put the cabosh on all social programs, yet still they spent too much. Those social programs did a lot of good for a lot of people. Bushanomics did a few people a lot of good, but did NOTHING for most of us. They planned on invading Iraq before 2000. They overspent to make it easier to sell us on ending these social programs.

I'm sorry if you can't put it all together in your tiny head to realize this was all by design. Maybe you should read up on the Guilded Age. The same thing the rich did to America back then, they are doing today.

It's rich vs. poor J. It always has been. They think we have it too good and we think they got it too good. They're rich whether we are in power or not. But when they are in power, we get poorer.

They argue that $35 hr is too much for an auto worker but it is ok to give a CEO whatever they want. $20 million? Sure!!! He deserves it, but the labor doesn't deserve $35 hr? Fuck you!

You didn't vote? Then fuck you! You voted for 3rd party? What makes them different or better?

 

[sealybobo]

he's telling you he's a communist and does not believe in free speech! listen to him?

Well he didnt' vote for President so he doesn't have the right to bitch.

Or you could look at it another way. If you don't vote, then you DO have the right to bitch because no matter who wins, you can't be blamed for putting that asshole into power.

So I'm waiting for J to tell us what his solution would be.

 

[WillowTree]

Well he didnt' vote for President so he doesn't have the right to bitch.

Or you could look at it another way. If you don't vote, then you DO have the right to bitch because no matter who wins, you can't be blamed for putting that asshole into power.

So I'm waiting for J to tell us what his solution would be.

you told him to shut the fuck up didn't you? and now you are waiting for him to answer you?? Oh,, I can see this is gonna be a great four years....

 

[Jon]

Well he didnt' vote for President so he doesn't have the right to bitch.

Or you could look at it another way. If you don't vote, then you DO have the right to bitch because no matter who wins, you can't be blamed for putting that asshole into power.

So I'm waiting for J to tell us what his solution would be.

I chose not to vote because I didn't believe in any of the candidates. Barr was my closest choice, but his blatant racism was a major turnoff. Even though I knew he wouldn't win, I couldn't bring myself to cast a vote for him.

If I voted, it would have been for the sake of voting against a candidate, and that would mean voting for someone I didn't support. Sorry, I don't play that game.

I'm not saying the Democrats are perfect.

That's all you've said since the first time I saw your posts.

I'm saying that the GOP from 2000-2008 fucked this country up. BY THEMSELVES!!

The GOP hasn't even controlled the government since 2006. And what improvements have been made since 2006? None.

Actually, the rich got richer so for them, they were right. But for you and I? They were dead wrong.

I'm richer now than I was in January. That's because I don't rely on the government to make me rich.

It's rich vs. poor J.

No, it's not. Take off your tinfoil hat. Class warfare only exists in your mind.

They argue that $35 hr is too much for an auto worker but it is ok to give a CEO whatever they want. $20 million? Sure!!! He deserves it, but the labor doesn't deserve $35 hr? Fuck you!

People are paid by what the company sees them as being worth. There are millions of accountants whose jobs are to determine how much each employee is worth to the company. If they say $35 an hour is too much, it's because the math tells them so. It's not because they are just being greedy. If they see the CEO as being worth $20 million, it's because the math tells them so.

That's the way it is. I'm sorry if you don't like it. It's not going to change, because it's worked for centuries. If one $35 an hour employee quits, the company will live. If the CEO leaves, it could mean major losses to the company image, thus major loss in revenue.

 

[sealybobo]

That's all you've said since the first time I saw your posts.

The GOP hasn't even controlled the government since 2006. And what improvements have been made since 2006? None.

I'm richer now than I was in January. That's because I don't rely on the government to make me rich.

No, it's not. Take off your tinfoil hat. Class warfare only exists in your mind.

People are paid by what the company sees them as being worth. There are millions of accountants whose jobs are to determine how much each employee is worth to the company. If they say $35 an hour is too much, it's because the math tells them so. It's not because they are just being greedy. If they see the CEO as being worth $20 million, it's because the math tells them so.

That's the way it is. I'm sorry if you don't like it. It's not going to change, because it's worked for centuries. If one $35 an hour employee quits, the company will live. If the CEO leaves, it could mean major losses to the company image, thus major loss in revenue.

I never said the Dems were perfect. I said the GOP was rotten to the core.

What improvements have been made with a one person majority in the Senate and Bush as president? None. In fact, Bush raped us one last time to the tune of $750b.

You're richer now? Even after the $750b bailout? That had to lower the value of the dollar. So how much did you save since January? And you must not have a 401K, because everyone who does says theirs got cut in half. I saved that money.

Class warfare only exists in my mind? Whatever. What about the tax breaks Bush wants to make permenant and Obama wants to let expire. Isn't that class warfare? I believe FDR waged class warfare on his own kind. They said he was a traitor to his own class.

You saying that class warfare doesn't exists makes me think you are a little child who doesn't know nearly as much as you think you do.

Companies in China, Japan & India think labor is worth $3 a day. If American corporations had their way, you would only make that much too. You are worth as little as they can get away with paying you dumb ass.

Move along you little baby. The grown ups are trying to talk.

And if you didn't vote, fuck off.

Seriously, shove off. Beat it. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the female version of you, Willow.

 

[sealybobo]

.

Here's How We Got Here. US wages were kept low via globalization while we overborrowed money from foreign sources.

Now the US is broke, and, having outsourced its manufacturing base, we can't build ourselves back up on the basis of a service economy.

I remembered a union guy telling me in 1987 that the US was going to rue the day it ever started sending manufacturing jobs overseas. He kept saying that no country remains a superpower without a strong manufacturing base.

 

[Jon]

I never said the Dems were perfect. I said the GOP was rotten to the core.

The day you wake up and realize both parties are is the day your opinion will actually matter.

What improvements have been made with a one person majority in the Senate and Bush as president? None. In fact, Bush raped us one last time to the tune of $750b.

Bush did? It took a Democrat Congress to pass it. Pelosi and Reid ate it up like it was Thanskgiving dinner.

You're richer now? Even after the $750b bailout? That had to lower the value of the dollar. So how much did you save since January? And you must not have a 401K, because everyone who does says theirs got cut in half. I saved that money.

My retirement isn't tied into stocks. I'm not stupid.

Class warfare only exists in my mind? Whatever. What about the tax breaks Bush wants to make permenant and Obama wants to let expire. Isn't that class warfare? I believe FDR waged class warfare on his own kind. They said he was a traitor to his own class.

Class warfare? No. Politics? Yes. You're letting the government create class warfare. Obama wants to tax the rich four and five times over what he taxes the middle class. Bush wants everyone to pay the same amount. You think Obama's plan is fair? No thanks.

You are worth as little as they can get away with paying you dumb ass.

Precisely. You're only worth what the company thinks you're worth. Want to make more money? Make yourself worth more. That's why I'm going to school for another degree: because I want more money. Want to know why CEO's make millions a year? Because they make themselves worth that much to the company.

And if you didn't vote, fuck off.

Oh I voted, just not for President. Personally, I don't think the President has much power. The only problem I have now is that the Democrats can push their agendas without having to worry about a veto.

Seriously, shove off. Beat it. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the female version of you, Willow.

Of course you were. You like to pick on the people who have trouble defending themselves, and you can't stand it when someone comes along to question your illogical judgment.

 

[Jon]

Here's How We Got Here. US wages were kept low via globalization while we overborrowed money from foreign sources.

Now the US is broke, and, having outsourced its manufacturing base, we can't build ourselves back up on the basis of a service economy.

I remembered a union guy telling me in 1987 that the US was going to rue the day it ever started sending manufacturing jobs overseas. He kept saying that no country remains a superpower without a strong manufacturing base.

Of course a union guy told you that. What would you expect? Unions can eat shit and die, for all I'm concerned.

 

[editec]

Of course a union guy told you that. What would you expect? Unions can eat shit and die, for all I'm concerned.

Unions have eaten shit and died. Haven't you noticed?

The union guy was still right, though.

As anyone with an ounce of sense and a willingness to face the facts, can easily enough see, the USA economy is going into the shitter

Please tell, Jsanders, what part of the economy do you think is actually working?

Now compare whatever m,etric you want to the economy of the USA when the percentage of union workers in america was five times higher than it is right now.

Wake the fuck up.

Unions didn't cause our problems, they made this nation the wealthiest on earth.

Destroying the unions however, has also destroyed America.

I hope the superwealthy enjoy their moment in the sun.

It won't last long, because their style of greed feeds on itself.

 

[Jon]

Oh, I never said the economy was working. Of course it's in the tank. It's a natural cycle. It's a basic economic principle that NO economy can ALWAYS grow and/or maintain itself. There will be downtimes. Shit, I learned that in junior high. That's why I don't freak out when the economy goes bad. It's also why I don't invest my retirement in stocks. If you trust the stock market to make you rich, you're insane.

But you tell me, how is an Obama presidency going to fix the economy? There's little the government can do to control the fluctuations in the economy. Sure, they can offer incentives to companies that don't export jobs. But can they offer enough incentives where the benefits will outweight the costs of paying workers in the US? Doubtful. On top of that, the government is constantly imposing more sanctions on manufacturing firms in regards to the environment. Going green is expensive. Why operate in the US and pay for that when you can operate overseas and not pay for it, all the while paying the workers to do the same work cheaper? Here's a newsflash I don't think you're aware of: businesses are in business to make money, and they want to make as much of it as possible. You're not going to change that.

I agree though, the move to a service oriented economy is a major problem. Mostly because there are not enough educated people to adequately perform the jobs needed. And those that do have the skills want too much money to do those jobs.

 

[sealybobo]

Of course a union guy told you that. What would you expect? Unions can eat shit and die, for all I'm concerned.

The corporatist Republicans ("amnesty!") are fighting with the racist Republicans ("fence!"), and it provides an opportunity for progressives to step forward with a clear solution to the immigration problem facing America.
Both the corporatists and the racists are fond of the mantra, "There are some jobs Americans won't do." It's a lie.
Americans will do virtually any job if they're paid a decent wage. This isn't about immigration - it's about economics. Industry and agriculture won't collapse without illegal labor, but the middle class is being crushed by it.
But none will tell Americans the truth about why we have eleven million illegal aliens in this nation now (when it was fewer than 2 million when Reagan came into office), why they're staying, or why they keep coming. In a word, it's "jobs." In conservative lexicon, it's "cheap labor to increase corporate profits."
It's really all about breaking the back of the most democratic (and Democratic) of American institutions - the American middle class.
One of the tools conservatives have used very successfully over the past 25 years to drive down wages, bust unions, and increase CEO salaries has been to encourage illegal immigrant labor in the US. Their technique is transparently simple.
Conservatives well understand supply and demand. If there's more of something, its price goes down. If it becomes scarce, its price goes up.
They also understand that this applies just as readily to labor as it does to houses, cars, soybeans, or oil. While the history of much of the progressive movement in the United States has been to control the supply of labor (mostly through pushing for maximum-hour, right-to-strike, and child-labor laws) to thus be able to bargain decent wages for working people, the history of conservative America has, from its earliest days grounded in slavery and indentured workers from Europe, been to increase the supply of labor and drive down its cost.
Union free" is good for the CEOs and stockholders of giant corporations. Reagan helped make it possible by reducing enforcement of the Sherman Anti-Trust and similar acts, by making the Labor Department hostile to labor, and by thus producing an environment into which illegal immigrant labor could step. He busted PATCO and popularized anti-union rhetoric, at a time when union membership was one of the primary boundaries that keep illegal labor out of the marketplace.
Conservatives can't just come out and say that they are pleased with the estimated eleven million illegal workers in the United States driving down wages. They can't brag that, behind oil revenue, Mexico's second largest source of income is money sent home from illegal "cheap labor" workers in the United States. They can't point out that before Reagan declared war on working people in 1981 we didn't "need a fence" to keep out illegal immigrants from the south, in large part because the high rate of unionization in America at that time, and enforcement of laws against hiring illegal immigrants, served as barriers to the entry of illegals into the workforce. They won't acknowledge the corporate benefits of a workforce whose healthcare is paid for by taxpayers but whose productivity belongs to their corporate masters.
ThomHartmann.com - Illegal Workers: the Con's Secret Weapon

ThomHartmann.com - Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

 

[Jon]

When you link Thom Hartmann, I don't read it. Sorry. Find a source that's not a leftwing looney.

I agree that illegal immigration has made labor cheap in the US. So, if you don't want to compete with cheap laborers, get an education and compete for the CEO jobs.

 

[sealybobo]

Unions have eaten shit and died. Haven't you noticed?

The union guy was still right, though.

As anyone with an ounce of sense and a willingness to face the facts, can easily enough see, the USA economy is going into the shitter

Please tell, Jsanders, what part of the economy do you think is actually working?

Now compare whatever m,etric you want to the economy of the USA when the percentage of union workers in america was five times higher than it is right now.

Wake the fuck up.

Unions didn't cause our problems, they made this nation the wealthiest on earth.

Destroying the unions however, has also destroyed America.

I hope the superwealthy enjoy their moment in the sun.

It won't last long, because their style of greed feeds on itself.

JSANDERS gets mad when I say it's all the GOP's fault. Well I just gave him a link to JUST ONE thing that is the GOP's fault, and that's ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

The next thing I will try to show him is that the GOP is all for sending jobs overseas.

So from hiring illegals here to sending our jobs overseas, those are two MAIN THINGS that are/have ruined America and those are both GOP things.

So now JSANDERS and WILLOW will tell me that Clinton signed NAFTA.

I will never understand the people who are labor but at the same time anti labor.

 

[Jon]

JSANDERS gets mad when I say it's all the GOP's fault. Well I just gave him a link to JUST ONE thing that is the GOP's fault, and that's ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

The next thing I will try to show him is that the GOP is all for sending jobs overseas.

So from hiring illegals here to sending our jobs overseas, those are two MAIN THINGS that are/have ruined America and those are both GOP things.

So now JSANDERS and WILLOW will tell me that Clinton signed NAFTA.

I will never understand the people who are labor but at the same time anti labor.

I'm not anti-labor, I'm pro logic. If I were running a corporation, I would do whatever I could to make my products at the cheapest costs possible. Why? Because it makes fucking sense.

Here's a bit of logic for you. If companies didn't hire cheap labor, and they hired only union workers who expect higher wages, guess what that does? It raises the costs of their goods. So the costs of goods goes up, guess who buys those goods? You do. Then you'd be bitching that they're charging you too much and buy from someone else. So what do they do? They hire cheap labor to keep costs low. Low costs = low price = greater demand = more profit. Higher costs = higher price = less demand = business goes bankrupt.

But, maybe I'm biased. I am a student of the Walton theory on costs and pricing.

 

[Jon]

Let me ask you something sealy. If a guy came up and offered to mow your lawn for $25, and someone else came up and said they'd mow your lawn for $20, who would you hire?

 

[sealybobo]

When you link Thom Hartmann, I don't read it. Sorry. Find a source that's not a leftwing looney.

I agree that illegal immigration has made labor cheap in the US. So, if you don't want to compete with cheap laborers, get an education and compete for the CEO jobs.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

So it's all the GOP's fault for 4 reasons.

1. Hiring illegals.
2. Sending jobs overseas
3. Allowing Corporations to not pay taxes
4. Doubling the debt

 

[Jon]

1. Hiring illegals.

I don't know a single Fortune 500 company that doesn't do extensive background checks on their employees, even the workers. If a company is knowingly hiring illegals to work, I'm all for fining them. But guess what fines do, raise costs, which raises prices.

2. Sending jobs overseas

Read above. Cheap labor makes sense. Sorry if that bothers you. It's just logic.

3. Allowing Corporations to not pay taxes

How is a company that posts a net loss supposed to pay taxes? No income = no income tax. But how does this affect the unemployment rate?

4. Doubling the debt

But again, how does this affect the unemployment rate?

 

[sealybobo]

Let me ask you something sealy. If a guy came up and offered to mow your lawn for $25, and someone else came up and said they'd mow your lawn for $20, who would you hire?

Is it illegal to hire the guy offering $20?

Is hiring him going to eventually lower my wages and my fellow American's wages?

And yes, many of my neighbors are hiring illegals to clean their homes and cut their lawns. That doesn't make it right.

See, you didn't read what Thom wrote. So I'll cut and paste it for you:

Even in areas where there are not high populations of illegal immigrants, their presence elsewhere in the American workforce drives down overall the cost of labor nationwide.

What he is saying is that eventually, you are only hurting yourself J. But apparently it hasn't hurt you yet, which is why you remain ignorant. I'm not going to wait until it hurts me. In fact, it has already hurt me, because jobs are scarce which means companies can pay less, not more.

This is why I think the GOP have fucked up the economy on purpose. Hell, they just scored $750 billion dollars after RAPING us for 8 years. You are a fucking sheep J!!! They sure pulled one over on you. One party fucked up the country and you don't even have the brains to know where to put the blame.

So now you are defending hiring illegals. If I show you that the GOP also ruined America by sending jobs overseas, guess what your dumb ass will do? You will defend sending jobs overseas. You'll ask me, "if you owned a company and could make more by sending jobs overseas, wouldn't you do it too"? And the answer would be OF COURSE!!! So the government shouldn't allow it. Or tax the fuck out of you if you go so it's cheaper to stay and pay Americans a decent wage.

And then you'll defend giving corporations tax loopholes.

And then you'll defend Bush doubling the debt. You'll say it was because of the two wars, which is wrong. And, one of those wars was waged on a lie, and the rich/corporations made a fortune off of you! You fucking ignorant bastard. Only it's not funny because by conning you, they fucked all of us.

The country wasn't broke until Reagan and Bush 1 & 2 broke it.