Political Message Boards

[RetiredGySgt]

Well I don't read every single thread and every single post, RGS. If it happens, I'm not doubting it. But I'd say the disdain around here towards liberals is far more regular than the disdain towards conservatives, as far as partisan labels being used as insults is concerned.

But hey, prove me wrong. Maybe there is just something I'm missing. I'd probably be pleasantly surprised to find I'm wrong, I really would.

LOL that you can read Jillians responses in most threads over the last 3 months and not see even she is starting to let slip her disdain for anyone that believes in conservative policies is hilarious.

Personally I find no offense in being called what I am, a Conservative. And anyone that DOES find offense in being called a Liberal when they are MUST be ashamed of what a Liberal is. Most of the Liberals on this board and most other boards try repeatedly to claim they are moderates. Which is an insult to any moderate that knows about their claim.

How can I "insult" someone by calling them a Liberal when they ARE liberals? Are they ashamed of what a Liberal stands for? Must be, since they keep trying to claim they are not left of center but rather middle of the road.

Are you "insulted" when someone calls you a Libertarian?

 

[Paulie]

LOL that you can read Jillians responses in most threads over the last 3 months and not see even she is starting to let slip her disdain for anyone that believes in conservative policies is hilarious.

Personally I find no offense in being called what I am, a Conservative. And anyone that DOES find offense in being called a Liberal when they are MUST be ashamed of what a Liberal is. Most of the Liberals on this board and most other boards try repeatedly to claim they are moderates. Which is an insult to any moderate that knows about their claim.

How can I "insult" someone by calling them a Liberal when they ARE liberals? Are they ashamed of what a Liberal stands for? Must be, since they keep trying to claim they are not left of center but rather middle of the road.

Are you "insulted" when someone calls you a Libertarian?

jillian doesn't like conservative philosophy, but I don't see her ultimately hating on people just for being conservative. Even through mine and hers campaign-long squabble over Ron Paul, I still get respect from her even though I lean as right as I do. If she uses the term "conservative" against certain posters, then that's on her. But I know first hand that she doesn't hate on all conservatives for merely being conservative.

And I'm not saying liberals here are ashamed of being liberal, but I understand that some feel insulted by being called liberal the way it is used, epsecially by YOU.

I'm quite proud of the libertarian leanings I have, btw. I'm still a conservative though, whether you like it or not.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

jillian doesn't like conservative philosophy, but I don't see her ultimately hating on people just for being conservative. Even through mine and hers campaign-long squabble over Ron Paul, I still get respect from her even though I lean as right as I do. If she uses the term "conservative" against certain posters, then that's on her. But I know first hand that she doesn't hate on all conservatives for merely being conservative.

And I'm not saying liberals here are ashamed of being liberal, but I understand that some feel insulted by being called liberal the way it is used, epsecially by YOU.

I'm quite proud of the libertarian leanings I have, btw. I'm still a conservative though, whether you like it or not.

And I repeat, IF Liberals are not ashamed of being Liberal then it does not matter one whit what I think of a Liberal, this is, as we all know a Bulletin Board on the Internet, they don't know me at all. If they are ashamed of being called a Liberal by me that would imply one of several things, either they ARE ashamed of what a Liberal is, or they are so enamored of my approval they are ashamed I think most Liberals are control freaks that would shut down our freedoms in a heart beat if they could get away with it, all of course for our own good.

Funny that, seeing as I am PROUD to be labeled a Conservative and when some retard claims they are something they are not, rather then validate their view by demanding I be called a moderate I tell them how WRONG they are.

 

[editec]

Ironically, generally when the detractors of either liberalism use that term, today, they tend to use the term to describe nearly the opposite of the original meaning of the word.

liberal

n 1: a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties [syn: progressive] [ant: conservative]

2: a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets

Now one can't really blame the people for using the word that way.

After all, both parties have changed the meanings of these words until neither word really describes what the words originally meant in political science.

The original liberals were the people seeking to end control over economics by monarchs. Basically the founding fathers would have descibed themselves as liberals

They were also seeking to limit the absolute authority of monarchs by expanding civil rights of the people.

The original conservatives were those who advocated absolute authority of monarchs. The TORIES would have describibed themselves as conservaitives

The terms as used by most of us, TODAY, are almost meaningless, EXCEPT to loosely describe a leaning toward either the positions currently in vogue in either the Democratic party, or the Republican party.

Today, the way most people use the term is to describe persons who take specific positions on specific issues of the day.

Generally speaking self identifying conservatives think of themselves as people who:

1. Oppose gun control
2. Oppose freedom of reproduction rights for individuals
3. Believe in lasisse faire economic systems
4. Support a strong military
5. Object to social services provided by the government
6. Object to taxation in principle or support flatter taxes
7. Believe that the Federal government should limit itself by interpreting the Constitution of the United States literally.


Generally speaking self identifying liberals think of themselves as people who:

1. Support gun control
2. Support freedom of reproductive right for individuals
3. Believe in government controls over economic systems
4. Believe the military is bloated
5. Support social service programs supported by taxation
6. Support graduated taxation systems
7. Believe that the Constitution cannot be interpreted literally.

Can anyone think of any other issues that they think describe either the liberal or conservative mindsets?

















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[Paulie]

editec, you're very right about that.

Classical liberals were more like what conservatives believe themselves to be these days. When I think of conservative, I think of adhering to the ORIGINAL status quo of the US, as it was conceived by the founders.

The founders could probably be considered classical liberals, and also conservatives. I have no problem claiming either label. What conservatives are considered TODAY, at least by MSM and radio pundits, is a pretty skewed version of what conservatives actually are. I don't buy the argument that the founders are liberals, because they challenged the British status quo. They challenged an oppresive foreign regime holding them hostage and denying them sovereignty. The status quo starts when the nation is born. It is from THERE, that a US citizen's conservatism would start, as far as adhering to the status quo. Britain becomes a moot point, from there.

How can you claim to be a real conservative when you blindly follow the status quo around like a puppy? As the status quo changes, as it indeed has since 1776, to change WITH it is to be anything BUT conservative. The original status quo was one of non-intervention both domestically and foreign. Today, there is little to no non-intervention in EITHER of those areas. Our government will intervene anywhere they are allowed to today. The only politicians holding federal office who stray from that are the ones that are marginalized and villified by the MSM. Todays mainstream liberals AND conservatives are supporting the same overall agenda.

Both terms have been hijacked for the purpose of distraction and division, and that has worked like a charm in case anyone hasn't noticed.

As far as your list, the part about military is deceiving. Supporting a "strong military" does not have to mean supporting policing the world and advocating nation-building. A strong military can just as much be one that is well-rested, well-supplied, and waiting at home to respond to any outside attack. I favor armed neutrality, personally. Pre-emptive military action only hurts the country ultimately, giving a false sense of security, while creating a whole new set of enemies. There are unintended consequences to foreign intervention. "Blowback", if you will.

Come talk to me when yo start seeing Al-Qaeda mention China and Russia as hated enemies and "infidels".

 

[Dr Grump]

Jillian is the only one I find to be here consistently and is willing to debate fairly, the rest of the left just shouts any disagreement down.

I generally find Gunny fair. A few such as Zoomie, Loki are just obnoxious. But generally, i find the right just shouts people down ...shrug..

 

[Dr Grump]

Most of the Liberals on this board and most other boards try repeatedly to claim they are moderates. Which is an insult to any moderate that knows about their claim.

I only find it offensive (more like annoying than offensive though) because I am not a liberal. In neocon, right-wing, religious American I am considered a liberal, but considering they make up about 10 per cent (if that) of western culture I find it annoying that such a small percentage stick a label on me, which in the real world is patently untrue.

 

[Annie]

I generally find Gunny fair. A few such as Zoomie, Loki are just obnoxious. But generally, i find the right just shouts people down ...shrug..

I didn't mean he or a few others aren't, just not on as often as Jillian, at the times I am. Not to mention I don't really consider Gunny a liberal.

 

[Dr Grump]

I didn't mean he or a few others aren't, just not on as often as Jillian, at the times I am. Not to mention I don't really consider Gunny a liberal.

Do I really have to spell out that I was taking the opposing view to yours?

 

[Paulie]

I am not a liberal.

Generally speaking self identifying conservatives think of themselves as people who:

1. Oppose gun control
2. Oppose freedom of reproduction rights for individuals
3. Believe in lasisse faire economic systems
4. Support a strong military
5. Object to social services provided by the government
6. Object to taxation in principle or support flatter taxes
7. Believe that the Federal government should limit itself by interpreting the Constitution of the United States literally.


Generally speaking self identifying liberals think of themselves as people who:

1. Support gun control
2. Support freedom of reproductive right for individuals
3. Believe in government controls over economic systems
4. Believe the military is bloated
5. Support social service programs supported by taxation
6. Support graduated taxation systems
7. Believe that the Constitution cannot be interpreted literally.

If you agree with most or all of the points in the list describing liberals, and disagree with most or all of the ones describing conservatives, then you are today's "liberal".

If you agree with about half and half, you are today's "moderate".

If you agree with most or all of the points about conservatives, and disagree with most or all of the ones describing liberals, then you are today's "conservative".

Simple as that.

I would add that some of the points are vague. Abortion and military, specifically. You don't have to oppose abortion flat out, you can also just oppose federal intervention in the matter. I oppose the idea of abortion when it pertains to a decision I would personally make, but I really don't care that anyone else may choose to have an abortion. I just don't want to see my federal govenrment getting involved in it, that's all.

 

[Dr Grump]

If you agree with most or all of the points in the list describing liberals, and disagree with most or all of the ones describing conservatives, then you are today's "liberal".

If you agree with about half and half, you are today's "moderate".

If you agree with most or all of the points about conservatives, and disagree with most or all of the ones describing liberals, then you are today's "conservative".

Simple as that.

Actually, it is not as simple as that. Only in America is it that simple. I come from a country of 4 million people that has 8 different political parties in its parliament - from the libertarian/right wing ACT party, to the left-wing Greens. We get two votes at election time, one for the MP (your version of a congress critter) and one for the party. Last election I voted for the National (a mild version of your GoP) candidate in my electorate. My party vote went to the Labour party (a mild version of your Dems). Only in the US it seems is there this liberal/conservative umbrella where every body is either in one camp or the other. There is the one percent of your population that'll support a Nader or Paul or are not really affiliated to either of the main parties, but they never get anywhere...

 

[editec]

The problem is mostly one of labeling, I think.

Labeling for purposes of denying people their true identities, such that they can be dismissed without consideration ... as we see happening here quite frequently.

Very few people I know are the caracatures that the self identifying "conservatives" like to make of liberals.

And very few people I know are the caractures that the self-identifying liberals like to make of conservatives, either.

There are extremists on both sides who are, in my opinion, hyper-opinionated, but fact and logic-free, morons.

But when push comes to shove, most self-identifying conservatives and self identifying liberals really want pretty much the same outcomes for themselves and their nation.

And while it is certainly true that we typically disagree about the policies we think our government should take to arrive at those desired outcomes, those debates are USUALLY about the degree to which some action should be taken, rather than some fundamental principle of governance.

Take taxation for example.

Both conservatives AND liberals believe that taxation is the price one pays for government. None of us like taxes, but we understand that they are the price of having government serve us.

So the questionxd about taxes are really how do we structure those taxes, and what do we spend them on?

So take the military upon which we do spend a vast amount of taxes..

Both liberals and conservatives believe we need a military.

The liberal/conservative debate there is really generally about much miliatary do we really need and what do we do with it when we have it?

And even within the liberal and conservative community we can't find agreement on those issues.

Plenty of conservative I know do NOT think we should be the world's policemen, and plenty of liberals I know think we should.

I could go on, but I know that those of us who write here who aren't merely here to be rude to others just because you can with impunity, understand my point.

The trick, in my opinion, for we who are here to discuss issues seriously, is to remind ourselves that the nitwits who are here to derail conversations between adults.

Remind yourselves, as they insult you foolishly and with obvious malice, that the people here who have your respect, can SEE what horses's asses these people make of themselves.

In other words, you do not have to defend yourselves every time some notwit decides to chide you as a liberal or conservative.

NoNe of us need to apologise or explain to these notwits that being a liberal or conservative is not a mental disorder.


I don't mean to sound condensending, here, but it's pretty god damned hard not to sound like you're condensending to people who prove time and again that they just don't have the intellectual horsepower to keep up.

These people who are pointlessly rude to us here are basically intellectual vandals.

Dismiss them for what they are, and they will either learn to play well with others or focus their attention on thir political alter egos.

They can have their tantrums with each other and the rest of us can just write around their flaming nonsense.

 

[Gunny]

Why?

Am I wrong? How many liberals use conservative as an insult, the way "liberal" is used around here as one?

I mean, personally I don't give a fuck about what side you lean to. Just do me the bare minimum, and be well-informed about your choices. I see the liberals losing their minds about Obama when he's no doubt going to be just another typical politician. If he was somehow a REAL maverick, he'd have been shut out by the MSM like any other so-called "maverick" would be. A certain candidate comes to mind.

It's not too much to ask, is it?

Semantics. Liberals insult conservatives every bit as much, they just don't them conservatives when they do it. They have LOTS of other, more insulting names to call them. Neocons, Bushies, rightwingnuts, there's the infamous imaginary rightwing religious fanatics that apparently control the entire right.

Liberals are the ones who consider "liberal" an insult. I think it's kind of funny, myself that they cannot stand being called what they are.

However, in speaking for myself only, I do not use "liberal" as an insult. It's a political ideology. I have much more colorful and apt descriptors if I want to insult the left wing extremists who I differentiate between them and liberals.

Point being, when it comes to insulting others for their political beliefs, no one side is worse than the other.

 

[Paulie]

Semantics. Liberals insult conservatives every bit as much, they just don't them conservatives when they do it. They have LOTS of other, more insulting names to call them. Neocons, Bushies, rightwingnuts, there's the infamous imaginary rightwing religious fanatics that apparently control the entire right.

Liberals are the ones who consider "liberal" an insult. I think it's kind of funny, myself that they cannot stand being called what they are.

However, in speaking for myself only, I do not use "liberal" as an insult. It's a political ideology. I have much more colorful and apt descriptors if I want to insult the left wing extremists who I differentiate between them and liberals.

Point being, when it comes to insulting others for their political beliefs, no one side is worse than the other.

Fair enough.

I still think though, that on this particular board, being one of only two message boards I even post at, I see more liberals merely being called "liberal" as an insult, than I see conservatives being called "conservative" as an insult.

Any other names are a different story, where my point is concerned. I realize that the liberals here use the term "neo con" in a derogatory way, but then, neo cons are an extremist faction of conservatives. So your logic in using name calling seems to justify the use of the term "neo con" as an insult in that case.

Although neo cons even BEING conservative is up for debate in my opinion, but that's a whole different discussion.

 

[editec]

Perhaps the reasons that liberals don't use the term conservative as an insult is because few of us think that merely being a conservative is a bad thing?

Some of the brightest most stand up people I know are conservatives. I tend to disagree with them about some issues, but generally that's not because we can't agree on the facts surrounding the issue, but instead because we are coming at the issue with different presuppositions about what a good outcome is going to look like.

 

[Gunny]

Fair enough.

I still think though, that on this particular board, being one of only two message boards I even post at, I see more liberals merely being called "liberal" as an insult, than I see conservatives being called "conservative" as an insult.

Within the context of this statement, I would agree.

 

[Gunny]

Perhaps the reasons that liberals don't use the term conservative as an insult is because few of us think that merely being a conservative is a bad thing?

Some of the brightest most stand up people I know are conservatives. I tend to disagree with them about some issues, but generally that's not because we can't agree on the facts surrounding the issue, but instead because we are coming at the issue with different presuppositions about what a good outcome is going to look like.

A think a lot of it goes to what I previously mentioned. If conservatives reacted as if insulted for being called conservative there's no doubt in my mind it would be in the arsenal of the left. Conservatives don't care about being called conservatives.

On the other hand, I've seen many liberals act as if shot for being called liberal, or go intoa diatribe of denial. It's like poking your little brother ... if he's gonna squeal .....

I was never insulted by being called a liberal. When the rightwing extremists call me one now, I actually get a kick out of it. It's just a belief. By definition, almost ALL Americans are liberals to an extent. There's nothing wrong with it,IMO, unless or until, as in most things, it's taken to the extreme.

 

[007]

How can I "insult" someone by calling them a Liberal when they ARE liberals? Are they ashamed of what a Liberal stands for?

One would certainly get that impression Gunny, I do. I think liberals also do they level best to hide their agenda. You've been beating home a point that I believe we all already know.

 

[Ravi]

How can I "insult" someone by calling them a Liberal when they ARE liberals? Are they ashamed of what a Liberal stands for? Must be, since they keep trying to claim they are not left of center but rather middle of the road.

I've never met or run across a liberal that was insulted to be called a liberal. If you come across one, please point him or her out.

Thanks.

 

[CSM]

It seems to me that some posters here (regardless of political affiliation) resort to "schoolyard antics" (name calling, personal insult, etc) when they are either too lazy or too unwilling to support their points with substantive data (facts!) or at least a reasonable logic.

I enjoy a good discussion and have had some on this board. What I do not have the patience, time or inclination to engage in is immature behavior exhibited by some.

In truth, I have sometimes fostered such behavior (sometimes even done so intentionally) but that gets very boring very fast. Its as if some posters have a big red button in their posts that say "PRESS HERE". Press said button and they immediately devolve into childish behavior.

Again, it isn't about ideology or political affiliation. It's about logical, reasoned discussion even if the parties concerned do not agree. I enjoy that and will participate in such all day long.