Police: 7-year-old fatally shot by father outside gun store in Pennsylvania

[eflatminor]

If anyone here was willfully ignorant it was the guy with the loaded gun.

That's pretty much what we're saying.

 

[MikeK]

The trained officer did not say the gun went off by itself and he didn't say the trigger was accidently pulled. But he doesn't need to. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about firearms knows that guns do not just magically discharge, someone had to have pulled the trigger.

That is true in 99.999% of examples but there are rare exceptions, such as the revered Remington 700 bolt-action rifle, which is one of the most popular American firearms (I once owned one but sold it back in the seventies). It was recently learned that this rifle is prone to accidental discharge when the safety is engaged and there have been many accidental shootings as the result of this problem. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx1_wC2PHwE]DEADLY DEFECT.m2p - YouTube[/ame]

I personally dislike automatic pistols, partly because I've grown accustomed to revolvers and partly because automatics are too mechanical. I had a close buddy in the Marine Corps, a Communicator whose t/o weapon was the .45 Colt 1911, which he accidentally shot himself right through the palm with (probably mishandling it). And while I have no stats to support it I believe the vast majority of firearm accidents occur with automatic pistols. (If I'm wrong, correct me.)

Last, my father fought the Japanese on Guadalcanal. Back then platoon sergeants in some infantry units were armed with Thompson submachine guns. He told us it was common for the Thompson to "cook off," meaning to fire without triggering when the chamber became overheated after releasing a long burst. He said it typically happened when a magazine was discharged and quickly replaced. The gun would just pop off a few rounds without touching the trigger.

I hope for the sanity of the seven year-old's father that the weapon that killed his boy is found to be defective. I can't imagine living with the kind of guilt and self-hatred that man is looking forward to. I believe I probably would kill myself.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No, I have actually witnessed first hand when a trained professional has made a mistake regarding a gun.
When I was 14 I watched bullet fragments be removed from my brothers face.. But you can continue to act like a know it all, it's always fun to watch.

I am arguing that no one, even trained professionals, is perfect, and you think I am stupid. That sounds like the typical response of a person suffering senile dementia.

First off the term senile dementia is no longer used. If we are trying to act all smart and stuff.

It isn't surprising that you think being good at Trivial Pursuit requires intelligence when all it really requires is a memory that works.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes, they did investigate and never did they find that the gun discharged on it's own...because it can't happen.

Again -- see my last note. Absolute thinking, especially on an incident you didn't see, will drown you in the River Denial.

Absolute thinking like being just sure this firearm discharged on its own? What was that about denial?

And I believe the PA State Police know their way around guns.

Perhaps, but they never said nor implied the firearm discharged on its own. They said it was an accident, which it was. They said the father said it discharged as he was laying it down, which it may very well have...because he pulled the trigger.

To be fair, he could have set it on top of something that worked the trigger without his finger actually doing the work.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The trained officer did not say the gun went off by itself and he didn't say the trigger was accidently pulled. But he doesn't need to. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about firearms knows that guns do not just magically discharge, someone had to have pulled the trigger.

That is true in 99.999% of examples but there are rare exceptions, such as the revered Remington 700 bolt-action rifle, which is one of the most popular American firearms (I once owned one but sold it back in the seventies). It was recently learned that this rifle is prone to accidental discharge when the safety is engaged and there have been many accidental shootings as the result of this problem. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx1_wC2PHwE]DEADLY DEFECT.m2p - YouTube[/ame]

I personally dislike automatic pistols, partly because I've grown accustomed to revolvers and partly because automatics are too mechanical. I had a close buddy in the Marine Corps, a Communicator whose t/o weapon was the .45 Colt 1911, which he accidentally shot himself right through the palm with (probably mishandling it). And while I have no stats to support it I believe the vast majority of firearm accidents occur with automatic pistols. (If I'm wrong, correct me.)

Last, my father fought the Japanese on Guadalcanal. Back then platoon sergeants in some infantry units were armed with Thompson submachine guns. He told us it was common for the Thompson to "cook off," meaning to fire without triggering when the chamber became overheated after releasing a long burst. He said it typically happened when a magazine was discharged and quickly replaced. The gun would just pop off a few rounds without touching the trigger.

I hope for the sanity of the seven year-old's father that the weapon that killed his boy is found to be defective. I can't imagine living with the kind of guilt and self-hatred that man is looking forward to. I believe I probably would kill myself.

I've had a gun discharge on me before it was a semi-auto rifle and after spending three days getting the packing grease cleaned out, I loaded a magazine, slammed it in, pulled back the slide and released it and the weapon fired.

But these events are indeed rare and I have never seen it or heard of it happening with a pistol.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If anyone here was willfully ignorant it was the guy with the loaded gun.

You people could justify anything. And your car analogy is about as stupid as stupid gets.

Funny, I don't recall anyone in this thread justifying what happened. I do, however, remember a few people using what happened to justify never taking kids to anyplace they might get hurt, even though the gun shop had nothing to do with what happened.

 

[eflatminor]

Again -- see my last note. Absolute thinking, especially on an incident you didn't see, will drown you in the River Denial.

Absolute thinking like being just sure this firearm discharged on its own? What was that about denial?

And I believe the PA State Police know their way around guns.

Perhaps, but they never said nor implied the firearm discharged on its own. They said it was an accident, which it was. They said the father said it discharged as he was laying it down, which it may very well have...because he pulled the trigger.

To be fair, he could have set it on top of something that worked the trigger without his finger actually doing the work.

Sure, that's possible. If he handled the firearm in such a way that the trigger was moved enough to discharge, he obviously didn't handle the weapon properly. Clearly, the firearm did not go off by itself. He either pulled the trigger or caused the trigger to pull back far enough to drop the hammer. He didn't follow the rules in either case.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I don't care if people own guns, but there is some stupid gun owners out there.

There are also people who do not own guns that are stupid.

Obvious rejoinder to that is they're not shooting people.

I don't want to shoot anyone so I have air tasers for self protection.

 

[hjmick]

I don't care if people own guns, but there is some stupid gun owners out there.

There are also people who do not own guns that are stupid.

Obvious rejoinder to that is they're not shooting people.

I don't want to shoot anyone so I have air tasers for self protection.

I don't want to shoot anyone either...

But I will if I have to...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There are also people who do not own guns that are stupid.

Obvious rejoinder to that is they're not shooting people.

I don't want to shoot anyone so I have air tasers for self protection.

I don't want to shoot anyone either...

But I will if I have to...

I agree.

But, since I also have air tasers, I don't have to shoot anyone.

 

[zakdavis]

Firearms just don't go off.

Machine guns can, but there's a reason behind that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't care if people own guns, but there is some stupid gun owners out there.

There are also people who do not own guns that are stupid.

Obvious rejoinder to that is they're not shooting people.

I don't want to shoot anyone so I have air tasers for self protection.

I think you are going to have a hard time proving that rejoinder.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Obvious rejoinder to that is they're not shooting people.

I don't want to shoot anyone so I have air tasers for self protection.

I don't want to shoot anyone either...

But I will if I have to...

I agree.

But, since I also have air tasers, I don't have to shoot anyone.

Umm, Tasers are guns, if you use one on somebidy you shot them.

 

[Pogo]

But guns do not just "go off". That's what we're trying to explain to you.

The reason why you should treat every gun as if it's loaded and you do not point it at anything you are not aiming to shoot is to prevent accidents exactly like this.

You do realize you just directly contradicted yourself in consecutive sentences, right?

If it's any consolation, I agree with the contradiction (the second point).

 

[zakdavis]

But guns do not just "go off". That's what we're trying to explain to you.

The reason why you should treat every gun as if it's loaded and you do not point it at anything you are not aiming to shoot is to prevent accidents exactly like this.

You do realize you just directly contradicted yourself in consecutive sentences, right?

If it's any consolation, I agree with the contradiction (the second point).

It's not really a contradiction. You treat a gun as always loaded so that, out of habit, you don't do something stupid when it is loaded.

 

[jtpr312]

Why take a child to a gun shop to begin with?

Why would you take a child into a car dealership? Both sell items that are potentially dangerous.

Or are you suggesting children should be kept ignorant to all that is potentially dangerous?

Or is he suggesting children should be, I dunno, protected from lethal situations by their parents?

Why taking the kid to a car dealership is a false comparison: a car in a lot isn't going to suddenly lurch forward at a child in a split second. Why else: cars are made to transport, not to destroy. Ergo the only danger a kid in a dealership is in from one of the products doing what it was designed to do is to be transported somewhere. If I read the story correctly the child was shot IN THE CAR, NOT in the gun shop.

Sheesh. All this rationalizing bending over for Almighty Gun to justify the needless death of a 7-year-old. The issue morphs into not the danger of guns, but the fatalistic rationalizations of "he could have been killed by a car, a blunt instrument, etc". All of which still produce a dead 7-year-old, but that's OK because it protects what's really important: the Holy Name of Almighty Gun. You're obviously an idiot.

Bob Costas didn't go far enough; we're not just a "gun culture", we're a "death culture'. That's right, and it has nothing to do with "guns" and everything to do with the moral breakdown we've experianced in this nation.

.

 

[jgarden]

Less then 1000 people a year die from accidental discharge of a firearm. But then you don't care about when they are organized what benefitsthat fact do you? Hell there are 40 to 50 thousand a year killed in car accidents, lets ban private ownership of cars. FOR the children of course.

There were less than 3000 killed during the 9/11 attacks and a decade later the federal government is still leaving no stone unturned in its relentless campaign to track down and "punsh" those responsible.

But for the "less then 1000 people a year die from accidental discharge of a firearm," "RetiredGySgt" dismisses them and isn't even prepared to shed "crocodile tears" over their loss, because he has already determined that's an acceptable "human price" we should all be prepared to pay for his right to own a gun!

 

[jtpr312]

The same reason you'd take them into a car dealership. To get them comfortable with the idea of what car is, what they look like, how they work, why to respect them, and what safety procedures must be adhered to.

With a seven-year-old??

I actually went to a car dealership at that age, and I guarantee you it had nothing to do with finding out what cars looked like or safety procedures. Nor was there ever any danger of a DeSoto suddenly cranking itself up and charging me. Which absolutely is what happened in this case; the gun went off when the man set the gun down on the console. He didn't pull any trigger. In this case, people didn't kill people, gun killed people.

And irony of ironies, the kid was buckling his seat belt at the time.

Wrong. Guns "don't just go off", he did not just set it down and it fired. I've been around loaded guns all my life, I have over 2 dozen loaded firearms in my home right now, and I have, never in my life, seen a gun just "go off". EVERY time a gun goes off, it's because a person pulled the trigger, or maybe dropped certain types of guns, but NO gun, just laying there will spontaneously fire itself.

 

[jtpr312]

OK well unless you were in the truck with them you'll have to take it up with the PA state police:


I wasn't stating opinion there.

Nothing the State Police said support the idea that the gun magically discharged on its own. The adult can say whatever he wants but it does not change the facts. If this firearm discharged "as he's laying it down", it's because he, accidentally I'm sure, pulled the trigger in the process of laying it down. Firearms just don't go off. Hermick is right, that it was an accident, but he never claimed it discharged on its own.

Anyone with a modicum of understand of how firearms operate knows this.

The father also violated a sacred rule of firearm safety, he allowed the muzzle to point at something he didn't intend to destroy.

While I wasn't in the vehicle at the time, I assure you SOMEONE pulled the trigger.

OK well as I said, take it up with the State Police They investigated; you didn't. Denial goes a long way but it's rhetorically worthless.

I can see you not only lack a basic understanding of how a firearm works, you lack a basic understanding of the English language. The State Police, NOWHERE said the firearm spontaneously discharged, they said "He was laying it down and it went off". Guns don't just "go off" nor do they "just discharge" a bullet. The father made three mistakes he will have to live with the rest of his life. 1. He treated the firearm as if it was unloaded, and rule #1 with a firearm is to ALWAYS treat it as if it is loaded. 2. He pointed the gun at a person he did not intend to shoot. 3. He had his finger on the trigger rather than along the side of the barrel, which is where you keep your finger until the moment you are prepared to fire the weapon.

 

[jtpr312]

Guns are used for self-defense between 2.1 Million and 2.5 Million times every year. The following facts from the Kleck/Gertz study, relate directly to this fact.

•In the vast majority of those self-defense cases, the citizen will only brandish the gun or fire a warning shot.
•In less than 8% of those self-defense cases will the citizen will even wound his attacker.
•Over 1.9 million of those self-defense cases involve handguns.
•As many as 500,000 of those self-defense cases occur away from home.
•Almost 10% of those self-defense cases are women defending themselves against sexual assault or abuse.
•This means that guns are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of law-abiding citizens than to take a life.
•At an estimated 263 million US population, in 1995, when the study was released, it also means that an average of 1 out of every 105 to 125 people that you know will use a gun for self-defense every year.


Dr. Kleck also wrote in his book titled "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America (Social Institutions and Social Change)" that burglars are more than three and a half times more likely to enter an occupied home in a gun control country than in the USA. Compare the 45% average rate of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands with the 12.7% of the USA. He continued to point out that citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals every year as do police (1,527 to 606). In a related article titled, "Are We a Nation of Cowards'?" in the November 15, 1993 issue of Newsweek Magazine, George Will reported that police are more than 5 times more likely than a civilian to shoot an innocent person by mistake.

The Wall Street Journal reported, in an August 28, 1996 article titled, "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," that a University of Chicago study revealed that states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. The most impressive single statement in the University of Chicago Study, which is an ongoing study, is the very first sentence of the Abstract on the first page.

http://http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml