Peer Review

[Abraham3]

2 or 3 papers in that list addressing Ocean Acidification.. And more attempts to kill baby critters with MASSIVE doses of CO2 fail.. Quantifying coral biospheres with NATURAL pH variations higher than the projections from AGW with thriving coral.. The picture there is getting much clearer as I suspected..

Studies showing that corals and molluscs survived temperature and CO2 increases that came on over ten thousand years are hardly a refutation of observations that coral and molluscs are being adversely affected NOW by temperature and CO2 increase with a hundred times faster onset.

 

[SSDD]

So Swim and SSDD think that meteors control the climate by adding CO2.

Hey, it's their theory. You'll have to ask them to explain it. But beware, they get kind of testy when you do.

Can you possibly exhibit more stupidity? Of course you can. The whole business about meteors was to shut down abraham's idiot claim that the earth was a closed system...let me guess, you think it is a closed system as well.

Why do you even play if you can't keep up?

 

[SSDD]

No, they have not said they believe that. I was attempting to guess why they thought added mass from meteors had some significant effect on climate. Neither fellow has explained.

The reason I ask what measured data you're talking about is two-fold:

1) No one, not even in the last 125 years, has measured the actual total mass of meteors landing on the Earth each year.
2) The clever comments you tacked on, particularly given point #1, had the effect of making me think you might be thinking of temperature or CO2 concentration - that you had failed to understand what I wrote.

And even more evidence of a severe reading comprehension problem from the peanut gallery. No one claimed the matter entering and exiting the atmosphere had anything to do with the climate but you. The fact that matter both enters and leaves the atmosphere was pointed out because you made the idiot claim that the earth was a closed system...any amount of matter and or energy entering and or leaving proves that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

 

[SSDD]

2 or 3 papers in that list addressing Ocean Acidification.. And more attempts to kill baby critters with MASSIVE doses of CO2 fail.. Quantifying coral biospheres with NATURAL pH variations higher than the projections from AGW with thriving coral.. The picture there is getting much clearer as I suspected..

Studies showing that corals and molluscs survived temperature and CO2 increases that came on over ten thousand years are hardly a refutation of observations that coral and molluscs are being adversely affected NOW by temperature and CO2 increase with a hundred times faster onset.

There are no rapid temperature and or CO2 increases in the ocean. I posted multiple papers, and can post more finding that oceans and lakes are net sources of CO2 to the atmosphere, not sinks...how do you suppose a net source of CO2 to the atmosphere is becoming acidified by CO2 in the atmosphere.....explain the alternate reality science that predicts such a thing.

As to the oceans rapidly warming...tell me...what happens to water when it warms, rapidly or otherwise...

And you might also read the information in this link before you start waving your hands about the heat build up in the ocean...seems that there is a lot of uncertainty on that front as well as every other front in climate science...

Ocean heat content uncertainties | Climate Etc.

 

[Abraham3]

They are sources of CO2 because they are warming.

Warming water increases the level of dissolved gas saturation.

 

[SSDD]

They are sources of CO2 because they are warming.

Warming water increases the level of dissolved gas saturation.

A net source can not, at the same time be a sink.

 

[SSDD]

They are sources of CO2 because they are warming.

Warming water increases the level of dissolved gas saturation.

A net source can not, at the same time be a sink.

And you didn't answer the question...what happens to water when it is warmed?

 

[Abraham3]

I answered it about a quarter of an inch above your complaint.

With no other change, as water warms, gas solubilty declines. However, calcium carbonate solubility increases. And as the partial pressure of CO2 in the atmosphere goes up, the equilibrium saturation of CO2 in water also goes up. The net effect is that the ocean is becoming more acidic (its hydrogen ion concentration is increasing) and species that need to precipitate CaCO3 and all those with biochemical reactions affected by changes in pH (read ALL species) will in some way be adversely affected.

 

[SSDD]

I answered it about a quarter of an inch above your complaint.

Try again. What happens to water when it is heated?

 

[SwimExpert]

Why isn't the Great Swimmer responding here? Wait, let me guess, you don't have the swimmer watch.

I always enjoy when people say things like this. It's a tell tale sign that a person is short on intelligence and logic, but high on ego. It makes no sense whatsoever to expect and demand that a person be awake at 5:30 in the morning just to come running and do your bidding.

 

[SwimExpert]

They are sources of CO2 because they are warming.

Warming water increases the level of dissolved gas saturation.

You're still failing to properly cite your references.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Even-Stupider-Things-Ever-Said/dp/0060950595/ref=pd_sim_b_1"]The 776 Stupidest things Ever Said[/ame]

 

[Old Rocks]

2 or 3 papers in that list addressing Ocean Acidification.. And more attempts to kill baby critters with MASSIVE doses of CO2 fail.. Quantifying coral biospheres with NATURAL pH variations higher than the projections from AGW with thriving coral.. The picture there is getting much clearer as I suspected..

My, my. Scientific American;

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ocean-acidification/

A lesser-known consequence of having a lot of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the air is the acidification of water. Oceans naturally absorb the greenhouse gas; in fact, they take in roughly one third of the carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere by human activities. When CO2 dissolves in water, it forms carbonic acid, the same substance found in carbonated beverages. New research now suggests that seawater might be growing acidic more quickly than climate change models have predicted.

Marine ecologist J. Timothy Wootton of the University of Chicago and his colleagues spent eight years compiling measurements of acidity, salinity, temperature and other data from Tatoosh Island off the northwestern tip of Washington State. They found that the average acidity rose more than 10 times faster than predicted by climate simulations.

Highly acidic water can wreak havoc on marine life. For instance, it can dissolve the calcium carbonate in seashells and coral reefs [see “The Dangers of Ocean Acidification,” by Scott C. Doney; Scientific American, March 2006]. In their study, published in the December 2 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, Wootton and his team discovered that the balance of ecosystems shifted: populations of large-shelled animals such as mussels and stalked barnacles dropped, whereas smaller-shelled species and noncalcareous algae (species that lack calcium-based skeletons) became more abundant. “I see it as a harbinger of the trends we might expect to occur in the future,” says oceanographer Scott C. Doney of the Woods Hole Ocean*ographic Institution, who did not participate in this study.

Wootton notes that the changes his team saw were linked with growing levels of atmospheric CO2, but he readily acknowledges that the global-warming gas might not be the main culprit in this surge in acidity. Instead the acidification the researchers observed could have resulted from a nearby upwelling of deep ocean water loaded with carbon, so the results might not apply to the oceans as a whole. Still, the acidity readings along the Pacific coast of the U.S. and in the Netherlands do seem to be rising, Wootton says, “and that seems consistent with our pattern.” Marine life, it seems, may not have the luxury of time to act as a buffer against the changing waters.

Note: This article was originally printed with the title, "Acid B

 

[Old Rocks]

Pacific Science Association - PSA Working Group on Ocean Acidification

The Pacific Science Association is facilitating international scientific collaboration on ocean acidification, an emerging issue of critical regional and global significance. PSA has formed a Task Force on Ocean Acidification led by acting co-chairs Dr. Yoshihisa Shirayama and Dr. Peter Brewer. The Task Force convened sessions at the 21st Pacific Science Congress in Okinawa, Japan in June 2007, as well as the 11th Pacific Science Inter-Congress in Tahiti in March 2009, which combined expertise in biogeochemistry, ocean ecology, and socio-economics.

Scientific data collected over many years are conclusive that oceanic absorption of atmospheric CO2 is causing chemical changes in seawater, making them more acidic (i.e. lowering pH). Increasing levels of anthropogenic CO2 are causing this process to accelerate. The average pH of the world’s oceans has dropped by about 0.1 pH units since the beginning of the industrial age. Without deep and early reductions in global carbon emissions, oceanic uptake of anthropogenic carbon will cause a further drop of 0.3 to 0.7 pH units by the year 2100. The degree and rapidity of these changes in ocean chemistry have not occurred in millions of years.

Early data is highly suggestive that ocean acidification (OA) will negatively impact many important marine organisms. Lower pH interferes with the physiological processes of calcifying organisms, including corals, echinoderms, coccolithophores, mollusks, and some zooplankton, which use various forms of calcium carbonate to construct cell coverings or skeletons. Fishes may also suffer adverse effects from OA, either directly as reproductive or physiological effects (e.g. CO2-induced acidification of body fluids), or indirectly through negative impacts on food resources. There is not yet a clear understanding of these processes, their implications for marine ecosystems, or for the human societies and economies that depend on marine resources and services. Given the critical ecological, economic, and cultural function of oceans in the region, nowhere is the need for additional research greater than the Asia-Pacific.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ongoing research.

The West Coast Ocean Acidification and Hypoxia Science Panel (OAH) | Institute for Natural Resources

Background Information about Ocean Acidification and Hypoxia from Oregon Sea Grant

Magazine features:
The Summer 2013 issue of Confluence,
Sea Grant's online magazine, focused on ocean acidification. Read the magazine online, or download a printable PDF.

Videos:
Dr. Richard Feely of NOAA's Pacific Marine Environmental Lab discusses new findings about how increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is making the oceans more acidic, and what that bodes for ocean ecosystems and the marine animals that inhabit them.

What is ocean acidification? (1:38)

How are ocean animals affected? (2:25)

How will ocean ecosystems be affected? (3:03)

Overview article: Ocean acidification: Canary in a Coal Mine (originally appeared in Terra Magazine)
Sea Grant-funded research:

Understanding, Forecasting and Communicating the Linkages Between Hypoxia and Ocean Acidification in Oregon's Coastal Oceans

A developmental and energetic basis linking larval oyster shell formation to acidification sensitivity (G. Waldbusser, et al); journal article from sea grant-funded research.

 

[SwimExpert]

Everything is going different than our models predicted! Therefore everything we've been saying all these years is true!! Ohez noes!

 

[editec]

We're still debating reality, I see.

Until you folks can agree on the facts, debating outcomes is rather a waste of time.

Except for the fact that these debates give some of you justification for being pointlessly rude to your fellow posters, of course.

And being rude to people who cannot strike you for your impertinence is why many of you come here, I suspect.

 

[flacaltenn]

I made it quite clear that I am contending that the Earth is a closed system with respect to carbon dioxide. If you can't cope with that, you need a little more experience in the real world.

The Earth and it's atmosphere are the system.

I never brought up any mass additions. You guys did. I simply pointed out that they were as inconsequential as it is possible to be.

YOU brought up the equivalence of matter and energy. That equivalence is utterly irrelevant to climate change and is many orders of magnitude more inconsequential than our daily collection of meteor dust.

I've already asked this of SSDD. Let me ask it of you. The Earth's addition of meteoritic mass over the planet's entire 3.5 billion years is a factor with 18 zeroes after the decimal place (quintillionths). We're actually examining a process that has only been going on for 150 years and we can say we're interested at most in the next few millennia. Further research indicates that the incoming matter includes almost no carbon whatsoever and so is even more irrelevant to the process under examination.

So, what is the difference between the abstract construct of a closed Earth system and the real one? If you don't want to talk about that one, how about ANYONE here identifying a truly closed, real, extant system; no energy in or out, no matter in or out.

And do try to tell us that you misstated the CO2 reaction as a test.

WRT CO2 --- the EARTH may be a closed system, but the CLIMATE is not.. Nor is the Atmos a closed system with regards to CO2.. As the chemical and physical sequestration cycling of the compound is MASSIVELY DYNAMIC.. The land and oceans are both removing and adding GTons of CO2 into the atmos systems every year.. When CO2 is 500m under the ocean -- it's not affecting climate is it? Or when it's part of Navel Orange --- it's not affecting GW is it? But in a couple months -- it could be again...

Note the bold, blue comment above. That takes care of all sequestration. And thank you for your admission that the Earth is closed wrt CO2.

Why isn't the Great Swimmer responding here? Wait, let me guess, you don't have the swimmer watch.

He DID try to tell you about CHEMICAL sequestration of CO2.. It READILY combines with a lot of stuff and comes in and out of the Earth's inventory of CO2.. In THAT sense -- he is CORRECT that CO2 is NOT a zero sum game on the planet. There is only an APPARENT closed system because of where we MEASURE the CO2 content and how we cannot possibly account for chemical transistions to other substances and back again..

 

[flacaltenn]

2 or 3 papers in that list addressing Ocean Acidification.. And more attempts to kill baby critters with MASSIVE doses of CO2 fail.. Quantifying coral biospheres with NATURAL pH variations higher than the projections from AGW with thriving coral.. The picture there is getting much clearer as I suspected..

My, my. Scientific American;

Ocean Acidification from CO2 Is Happening Faster Than Thought - Scientific American

A lesser-known consequence of having a lot of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the air is the acidification of water. Oceans naturally absorb the greenhouse gas; in fact, they take in roughly one third of the carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere by human activities. When CO2 dissolves in water, it forms carbonic acid, the same substance found in carbonated beverages. New research now suggests that seawater might be growing acidic more quickly than climate change models have predicted.

Marine ecologist J. Timothy Wootton of the University of Chicago and his colleagues spent eight years compiling measurements of acidity, salinity, temperature and other data from Tatoosh Island off the northwestern tip of Washington State. They found that the average acidity rose more than 10 times faster than predicted by climate simulations.

Highly acidic water can wreak havoc on marine life. For instance, it can dissolve the calcium carbonate in seashells and coral reefs [see “The Dangers of Ocean Acidification,” by Scott C. Doney; Scientific American, March 2006]. In their study, published in the December 2 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, Wootton and his team discovered that the balance of ecosystems shifted: populations of large-shelled animals such as mussels and stalked barnacles dropped, whereas smaller-shelled species and noncalcareous algae (species that lack calcium-based skeletons) became more abundant. “I see it as a harbinger of the trends we might expect to occur in the future,” says oceanographer Scott C. Doney of the Woods Hole Ocean*ographic Institution, who did not participate in this study.

Wootton notes that the changes his team saw were linked with growing levels of atmospheric CO2, but he readily acknowledges that the global-warming gas might not be the main culprit in this surge in acidity. Instead the acidification the researchers observed could have resulted from a nearby upwelling of deep ocean water loaded with carbon, so the results might not apply to the oceans as a whole. Still, the acidity readings along the Pacific coast of the U.S. and in the Netherlands do seem to be rising, Wootton says, “and that seems consistent with our pattern.” Marine life, it seems, may not have the luxury of time to act as a buffer against the changing waters.

Note: This article was originally printed with the title, "Acid B

So what? The West coast oyster disaster is/was a FARMING issue. They could not KILL baby oysters with MASSIVE CO2.. And the 2 NEW PAPERS show MORE evidence that natural variability and immunity to pH variation is much higher than assumed in EARLIER panicked warnings..

Besides, there's a logical contradiction in the prophecy about UNBOUNDED ocean acidification. AGW feedback lore says that warmer oceans will CEASE TO UPTAKE CO2 due to warming and start burbing it out thus ACCELERATING the planetary suicide attempt.. Get the story straight at least man..

 

[IanC]

We're still debating reality, I see.

Until you folks can agree on the facts, debating outcomes is rather a waste of time.

Except for the fact that these debates give some of you justification for being pointlessly rude to your fellow posters, of course.

And being rude to people who cannot strike you for your impertinence is why many of you come here, I suspect.

That's it, in a nut shell.

 

[SwimExpert]

Besides, there's a logical contradiction in the prophecy about UNBOUNDED ocean acidification. AGW feedback lore says that warmer oceans will CEASE TO UPTAKE CO2 due to warming and start burbing it out thus ACCELERATING the planetary suicide attempt.. Get the story straight at least man..

Can you put that into scientific language, complete with evidence, and present it your theory to a room full of scientists? This is science, after all. Logic is not relevant.