Peace Process Antics

[RoccoR]

Gardener, et al,

I'm not what the fascination is with TransJordan being part of the Mandate. But I can assure you that it was, and not for a matter of convenience.

You know like i do that Jordan was made part of Pwlestine Mandate only for purposes of convenience and adminsitration. It had nothing to do with these areas being part of historical palestine. historical palestine went from the river to the sea and from aroujnd haifa to around where the negev desert begins.

yes jordan was part of palestine for one year but so what who cares.

(COMMENT)

Jordan was part of the Mandate from a time before the Mandate was codified in writing (starting in 1920), until if gained total indendence in 1946; a bit more than a year.

On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan.

SOURCE: Jordan - History - The Making of Transjordan

Section X.--TRANS-JORDANIA.

Included in the area of the Palestine Mandate is the territory of Trans-Jordania. It is bounded on the north by the frontier of Syria, placed under the mandate of France; on the south by the kingdom of the Hejaz; and on the west by the line of the Jordan and the Dead Sea; while on the east it stretches into the desert and ends--the boundary is not yet defined--where Mesopotamia begins. Trans-Jordania has a population of probably 350,000 people. It contains a few small towns and large areas of fertile land, producing excellent wheat and barley. The people are partly settled townsmen and agriculturists, partly wandering Bedouin; the latter, however, cultivate areas, more or less fixed, during certain seasons of the year. -

SOURCE: Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

M. ORTS quoted the end of the declaration of Lord Cushendun:

"There should be no doubt at all in the minds of the members of the Council that my Government regards itself as responsible to the Council for the proper application in Trans-Jordan of all the provisions of the Palestine mandate, except those which have been excluded under Article 25."​

SOURCE: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 15th session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission (19 July 1929)

As for the reason for the inclusion:

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people,

SOURCE: Sevres Treaty: Part III

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh Paul, --- and now for the rest of the story.

After the mandate left in 1948 the Palestinians did form a government and declared independence inside their international borders.

that is a lie and you have no evdience because it is a lie.

when did th palestinians delcare independence inside their international borders?

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

(COMMENT)

Yes, they sent the cable. But in defiance of the recommendations of the UNCOP, the Security Council, and the decision of the General Assembly; and, totally ignoring the fact that Israel declared independence four months prior to the Palestinian announcement, they try to take the Mandate (undefined):

RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE

This was ridiculous, a demand that got all the attention it deserved ---- nothing.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh Paul, --- and now for the rest of the story.

that is a lie and you have no evdience because it is a lie.

when did th palestinians delcare independence inside their international borders?

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

(COMMENT)

Yes, they sent the cable. But in defiance of the recommendations of the UNCOP, the Security Council, and the decision of the General Assembly; and, totally ignoring the fact that Israel declared independence four months prior to the Palestinian announcement, they try to take the Mandate (undefined):

RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE

This was ridiculous, a demand that got all the attention it deserved ---- nothing.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palestinians declared independence inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

Israel declared independence inside...ahhh...errr... inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

 

[Gardener]

Jordan:

The Emirate of Transjordan (Arabic: إمارة شرق الأردن Imārat Sharq al-Urdun), also hyphenated as Trans-Jordan and previously known as Transjordania or Trans-Jordania, was a British protectorate established in April 1921. The Hashemite dynasty ruled the protectorate as well as the neighbouring protectorate of Iraq, following the Cairo Conference. The territory was officially under the British Mandate for Palestine but had a fully autonomous governing system from Mandatory Palestine. In 1946, the Emirate became an independent state.

Transjordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Abdullah established his government on 11 April 1921.[16] Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine, and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan.[17] Technically they remained one mandate, but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. In May 1923 Transjordan was granted a degree of independence with Abdullah as ruler and Harry St. John Philby as chief representative

 

[toastman]

That doesnt back up your previous claim regarding Jordan and the West Bank..... Oh my, I think it's time for bed

 

[Gardener]

Looks like the USA did also accept Jordan's annex of the West bank and called it "Arab Palestine".

In 1978, the U.S. State Department published a memorandum of conversation between Mr. Stuart W. Rockwell of the Office of African and Near Eastern Affairs and Abdel Monem Rifai, a Counselor of the Jordan Legation on 5 June 1950. Mr. Rifai asked when the United States was going to recognize the union of Arab Palestine and Jordan. Mr. Rockwell explained the Department's position, stating that it was not the custom of the United States to issue formal statements of recognition every time a foreign country changed its territorial area. The union of Arab Palestine and Jordan had been brought about as a result of the will of the people and the US accepted the fact that Jordanian sovereignty had been extended to the new area. Mr. Rifai said he had not realized this and that he was very pleased to learn that the US did in fact recognize the union.

Transjordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

Looks like the USA did also accept Jordan's annex of the West bank and called it "Arab Palestine".

In 1978, the U.S. State Department published a memorandum of conversation between Mr. Stuart W. Rockwell of the Office of African and Near Eastern Affairs and Abdel Monem Rifai, a Counselor of the Jordan Legation on 5 June 1950. Mr. Rifai asked when the United States was going to recognize the union of Arab Palestine and Jordan. Mr. Rockwell explained the Department's position, stating that it was not the custom of the United States to issue formal statements of recognition every time a foreign country changed its territorial area. The union of Arab Palestine and Jordan had been brought about as a result of the will of the people and the US accepted the fact that Jordanian sovereignty had been extended to the new area. Mr. Rifai said he had not realized this and that he was very pleased to learn that the US did in fact recognize the union.

Transjordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, recognition by the US does not bestow any legality and does not necessarily mean it is true.

It is merely a political statement.

 

[Gardener]

Of course, recognition by the US does not bestow any legality and does not necessarily mean it is true.

It is merely a political statement.

of couse you are SPEACHLESS that the USA accepted jordanian independence over the west bank and annexatiopn of "arab palestine".

it also bothers you that the usa called it "arab palestine and jordan".

ruins your whole theory that jordan is arab palestine if the USA called them two different places.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course, recognition by the US does not bestow any legality and does not necessarily mean it is true.

It is merely a political statement.

of couse you are SPEACHLESS that the USA accepted jordanian independence over the west bank and annexatiopn of "arab palestine".

it also bothers you that the usa called it "arab palestine and jordan".

ruins your whole theory that jordan is arab palestine if the USA called them two different places.

Jordan attempted to annex the West Bank but could not. It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

 

[Gardener]

Jordan attempted to annex the West Bank but could not. It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

israel annexed parts of the West bank and made it part of "Jerusalem"

jordan annexed the weest bank and gave citizenship to all people living there.

has israel offered citisenship to the palestinians in east jerusalem?

nope only permanent residense

 

[MHunterB]

Quietly, East Jerusalem Palestinians acquiring Israeli citizenship | +972 Magazine


"has israel offered citisenship to the palestinians in east jerusalem? nope only permanent residence"

The above link answers your 'question'. You were mistaken.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you are wrong again.

Israel declared independence inside...ahhh...errr... inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

(COMMENT)

Israel declared independence within the framework of GA Resolution 181. Those were the original boundaries at the start of the War of Independence (WoI). The outcome of the (WoI) realigned the new areas of control to which Israel maintained at the time of the Armistice. With the exception of the Treaties between Jordan and Egypt, those borders, are considered in dispute.

None the less, the Security Council and General Assembly recognizing the nature of the conflict and dispute, granted recognition to Israel and took no action on the Palestinian Declaration.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Gardener]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you are wrong again.

Israel declared independence inside...ahhh...errr... inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

(COMMENT)

Israel declared independence within the framework of GA Resolution 181. Those were the original boundaries at the start of the War of Independence (WoI). The outcome of the (WoI) realigned the new areas of control to which Israel maintained at the time of the Armistice. With the exception of the Treaties between Jordan and Egypt, those borders, are considered in dispute.

None the less, the Security Council and General Assembly recognizing the nature of the conflict and dispute, granted recognition to Israel and took no action on the Palestinian Declaration.

Most Respectfully,
R

wromg again friendo.

the border with lebanon is regonized by lebanon.

 

[Gardener]

The above link answers your 'question'. You were mistaken.

well that is nice to see.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you are wrong again.

Israel declared independence inside...ahhh...errr... inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

(COMMENT)

Israel declared independence within the framework of GA Resolution 181. Those were the original boundaries at the start of the War of Independence (WoI). The outcome of the (WoI) realigned the new areas of control to which Israel maintained at the time of the Armistice. With the exception of the Treaties between Jordan and Egypt, those borders, are considered in dispute.

None the less, the Security Council and General Assembly recognizing the nature of the conflict and dispute, granted recognition to Israel and took no action on the Palestinian Declaration.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel lied. Israel never accepted the proposed borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you are wrong again.

Israel declared independence inside...ahhh...errr... inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

(COMMENT)

Israel declared independence within the framework of GA Resolution 181. Those were the original boundaries at the start of the War of Independence (WoI). The outcome of the (WoI) realigned the new areas of control to which Israel maintained at the time of the Armistice. With the exception of the Treaties between Jordan and Egypt, those borders, are considered in dispute.

None the less, the Security Council and General Assembly recognizing the nature of the conflict and dispute, granted recognition to Israel and took no action on the Palestinian Declaration.

Most Respectfully,
R

With the exception of the Treaties between Jordan and Egypt, those borders, are considered in dispute.

None of Palestine's international borders are disputed by its neighbors.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you are wrong again.

Israel declared independence inside...ahhh...errr... inside Palestine's international borders.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

(COMMENT)

Israel declared independence within the framework of GA Resolution 181. Those were the original boundaries at the start of the War of Independence (WoI). The outcome of the (WoI) realigned the new areas of control to which Israel maintained at the time of the Armistice. With the exception of the Treaties between Jordan and Egypt, those borders, are considered in dispute.

None the less, the Security Council and General Assembly recognizing the nature of the conflict and dispute, granted recognition to Israel and took no action on the Palestinian Declaration.

Most Respectfully,
R

The UN has no authority to create states, transfer land, or define borders.

 

[Gardener]

The UN has no authority to create states, transfer land, or define borders.

that is very intgeresting because israel disagrees with you in a big way, friendo.

From May 24 to June 7, 2000, the Special Envoy travelled to Israel, Lebanon and the Syria to follow up on the implementation of the Secretary-General's May 22 report. The United Nations cartographer and his team, assisted by UNIFIL, worked on the ground to identify a line to be adopted for the practical purposes of confirming the Israeli withdrawal. While it was agreed that this would not be a formal border demarcation, the aim was to identify a line on the ground closely conforming to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon, based on the best available cartographic and other documentary evidence.

On June 7 the completed map showing the withdrawal line was formally transmitted by the Force Commander of UNIFIL to his Lebanese and Israeli counterparts. Notwithstanding their reservations about the line, the Governments of Israel and Lebanon confirmed that identifying this line was solely the responsibility of the United Nations and that they would respect the line as identified. On June 8, UNIFIL teams led by Lebanese Brig. General Imad Anka and Brig. General Amin Htait commenced the work of verifying the Israeli withdrawal behind the line.

On June 16, the Secretary-General reported to the Security Council that Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with resolution 425 (1978) and met the requirements defined in his report of May 22, 2000; namely, Israel had completed the withdrawal in conformity with the line identified by the United Nations


Blue Line (Lebanon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




the UN considers the border of northern israel to be the blue Line that UN cartagrophers mapped out and israel accepts this.

 

[Gardener]

and here is a lovely poicture from Israel saying that the blue line is the isreali "BORDER" with lebanon.

File:ISRAELLEBANONBORDERFENCE.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

here is another loevly pictrue of the "israel lebanon BORDER"

Israel Closes Haifa Airport Amid Growing Tensions On Northern Borders ...



and one more just for fun.

The U.N. peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon determined on Wednesday Israeli soldiers were operating

 

[P F Tinmore]

The UN has no authority to create states, transfer land, or define borders.

that is very intgeresting because israel disagrees with you in a big way, friendo.

From May 24 to June 7, 2000, the Special Envoy travelled to Israel, Lebanon and the Syria to follow up on the implementation of the Secretary-General's May 22 report. The United Nations cartographer and his team, assisted by UNIFIL, worked on the ground to identify a line to be adopted for the practical purposes of confirming the Israeli withdrawal. While it was agreed that this would not be a formal border demarcation, the aim was to identify a line on the ground closely conforming to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon, based on the best available cartographic and other documentary evidence.

On June 7 the completed map showing the withdrawal line was formally transmitted by the Force Commander of UNIFIL to his Lebanese and Israeli counterparts. Notwithstanding their reservations about the line, the Governments of Israel and Lebanon confirmed that identifying this line was solely the responsibility of the United Nations and that they would respect the line as identified. On June 8, UNIFIL teams led by Lebanese Brig. General Imad Anka and Brig. General Amin Htait commenced the work of verifying the Israeli withdrawal behind the line.

On June 16, the Secretary-General reported to the Security Council that Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with resolution 425 (1978) and met the requirements defined in his report of May 22, 2000; namely, Israel had completed the withdrawal in conformity with the line identified by the United Nations


Blue Line (Lebanon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




the UN considers the border of northern israel to be the blue Line that UN cartagrophers mapped out and israel accepts this.

While it was agreed that this would not be a formal border demarcation, the aim was to identify a line on the ground closely conforming to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon,..

the UN considers the border of northern israel to be the blue Line that UN cartagrophers mapped out and israel accepts this.

Why don't they call it a border?

It does not say that Israel has to withdraw back to Israel. It says that Israel must leave Lebanon.