Peace deal

[ForeverYoung436]

Israel withdraws to '67 borders, except for Jerusalem, which it keeps. Israeli settlers become citizens of Palestine, and no Israeli soldiers in the Jordan Valley. Palestine should have no military. No Palestinian "refugees" or their descendants can come back to Israel--they must be absorbed inside of Palestine. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they must recognise Israel and renounce terror. Special arrangements must be worked out for Abraham, Rachel, and Joseph's Tombs. "End of conflict" papers to be signed, with no further demands ever. Take it or leave it.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Mr. Tinmore, what do you think of the peace plan I outlined? And what do you think of Netanyahu's address to Congress?

 

[editec]

Israel withdraws to '67 borders, except for Jerusalem, which it keeps. Israeli settlers become citizens of Palestine, and no Israeli soldiers in the Jordan Valley. Palestine should have no military. No Palestinian "refugees" or their descendants can come back to Israel--they must be absorbed inside of Palestine. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they must recognise Israel and renounce terror. Special arrangements must be worked out for Abraham, Rachel, and Joseph's Tombs. "End of conflict" papers to be signed, with no further demands ever. Take it or leave it.

Whose position is that?

Is it yours?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Yes.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Mr. Tinmore, what do you think of the peace plan I outlined? And what do you think of Netanyahu's address to Congress?

Too many clunkers.

'67 borders unacceptable to most Israelis and Palestinians.

Jerusalem will not fly with the Palestinians.

Some Israeli settlers would not mind but the religious freakazoid ones would object.

Israel is super paranoid about no troops in the Jordan Valley.

The right of return is an individual right that cannot be negotiated away by third parties.

Hamas is irrelevant. It is just an elected political party. Like one woman in Gaza said. "We put them in - we can take them out."

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Mr. Tinmore, you did not answer the 2nd part of my question. What did you think of Netanyahu's speech to Congress?

 

[boedicca]

If you'd put World in the title, you'd be a White Supremacist.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

If you'd put World in the title, you'd be a White Supremacist.

Huh?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Mr. Tinmore, you did not answer the 2nd part of my question. What did you think of Netanyahu's speech to Congress?

Besides needing a barf bag and hip boots?

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Israel withdraws to '67 borders, except for Jerusalem, which it keeps. Israeli settlers become citizens of Palestine, and no Israeli soldiers in the Jordan Valley. Palestine should have no military. No Palestinian "refugees" or their descendants can come back to Israel--they must be absorbed inside of Palestine. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they must recognise Israel and renounce terror. Special arrangements must be worked out for Abraham, Rachel, and Joseph's Tombs. "End of conflict" papers to be signed, with no further demands ever. Take it or leave it.

Obviously, everything to do with this conflict could be described as unreasonable, crazy, unrealistic, etc. But here is my critique of your plan:

There is no reason for Israel to have to give up settlements that are adjacent to the '67 lines when both sides agree that Israel could give the same amount of unpopulated territory in return for these settlements. While I enjoy the idea of telling the settlers that they can stay where they are and they don't need to move, they will just change nationalities, it is also unrealistic.

There are plenty of Arabs in East Jerusalem. This should be the capital of any Palestinian state. Without it being the capital, the Palestinians will have been "defeated," the deal will seem unfair and the conflict will never end.

How would you define an army? Having a strong police force and the ability to defend boarders will be in Israel's interest.

Hamas goes away when progress is achieved on peace and economic development. Therefore, if Israel were to behave in a reasonable manner the threat from Hamas would be greatly diminished.

Netanyahu's speech to Congress was brilliant. He has solved his coalition issues and managed to make the Congress look stupid for believing him at the same time. Its a shame he doesn't want peace and has failed the state of Israel strategically. The past great leaders are turning over in their graves.

 

[jillian]

Mr. Tinmore, what do you think of the peace plan I outlined? And what do you think of Netanyahu's address to Congress?

he'll think it sucks because israel would still exist in a form.

and no... the 67 borders will never happen... nor should they

 

[P F Tinmore]

Mr. Tinmore, what do you think of the peace plan I outlined? And what do you think of Netanyahu's address to Congress?

he'll think it sucks because israel would still exist in a form.

and no... the 67 borders will never happen... nor should they

Not accepting 67 borders is a double edged sword for Israel. There are no 67 borders. Israel has no borders at all. Jerusalem is inside Palestine's borders not inside any Israeli border. Even places like Sderot are inside Palestinian borders not inside any Israeli border.

Israel talks about compromises and concessions. How can it say that when it has never legally acquired any land. What is called Israel in the west is called 1948 occupied Palestine in the ME. Legally, they are correct. The existence of Israel is de facto not de jure. It has political recognition but no legal standing.

 

[JBeukema]

Palestine should have no military.

Renders everything else meaningless, since they'd have no power to defend and enforce their borders.

Unless they revved up behind the scenes and pulled a Germany...

 

[JBeukema]

Mr. Tinmore, what do you think of the peace plan I outlined? And what do you think of Netanyahu's address to Congress?

he'll think it sucks because israel would still exist in a form.

and no... the 67 borders will never happen... nor should they

How bout the borders from before the first Genocides?

 

[JBeukema]

Until Judiasm and Islam as they exist are abolished from human consciousness and those in the region cease speaking of an 'Israel' and separating themselves from eachother, all this mental masturbation means nothing.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

The withdrawal to 67 borders with the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine isn't gonna happen.

This would be the most workable solution:

Dr. Epsilon A. Delta's Middle East Peace Initiative

Borders
- The land ratio of historic Palestine remains the same - 78% for Israel, 22% for Palestine (a sad and unfair reality, but the reality nonetheless).
- Israel gets to annex the settlements as established in the 2001 Taba Summit, which Palestinians accepted. An equivalent amount of Israel's land is allocated to Palestine, probably around the northern WB, the Negev, and padding around Gaza for a potential bridge between it and the WB.

Refugees
- All Palestinian refugees can settle in the new Palestinian state, or work out arrangements with current host countries and third countries with massive financial support of the international community.
- As much as it would be fair for Israel to at least take a tiny, symbolic amount of refugees, it's obvious this is never going to happen, and I'm pretty sure the Palestinians know this. =\

Jerusalem
- A divided Jerusalem as capital of both states, both connected to their respective territories, with Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods (and the Western Wall) and Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighbors, under a framework of an open city (as per Taba). The Temple Mount would be ruled jointly by both sides equally.

Security
- International observers deployed along the new border for a temporary amount of time (~5 years).
- Palestine will control it's own borders, air space, Gaza's coast, and underground (including water) resources within it's territory.
- Israel keeps 3 early warning stations in Palestine (as per Taba), with about 12-18 months to withdraw from the rest of the West Bank.
- On the Subject of a Palestinian Military: I totally reject the idea that Israel or anyone else demand that Palestine be a demilitarized state, but nonetheless I strongly back the idea that Palestinians themselves should opt for a de-militarized state as the most effective way to ensure its security (I know that sounds ironic to most people, but it's not). Thankfully, they did accede to this idea, and have agreed to be classified as a "state with limited arms" along with Costa Rica, Panama, Iceland and others.

Mutual Recognition
- Both states should diplomatically recognize the other as the sovereign entity that rules over the territory within the agreed boundaries and absolutely nothing more, just like virtually every other state in the world. The idea that Israel has to recognize Palestine as a "Muslim Arab State" or that Palestine has to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" is moronic. Whether Israel wants to consider itself a Jewish state or not is entirely for itself to decide, not for anybody else. When the Islamic Republic was declared in Iran, nobody was forced to recognize it as a "Muslim Persian State" - it simply was recognized as the entity exercising sovereignty over this particular piece of land, and it happened to be populated and ruled by Muslim Persian people. When the US declared independence, nobody was forced to recognize it as the "State of the Protestant White immigrant community in the Americas" or as the "State of the Anglo-Saxon, German, and other European descendants" or "a multicultural state with equal protection" - it was simply recognized as a country, whatever its internal configuration being entirely irrelevant for international recognition, squarely handled internally, and with absolutely no need for validation by anybody.

---

So that's my plan, virtually the same as the Taba plan which both parties agreed was "the closest they've ever come to reach a final agreement" before it was abandon by Israel after Barak was unceremoniously ousted by Sharon in the Israeli elections and Clinton gave way to Bush. It's not perfect but it's workable and reasonable people on both sides could agree to this. This would not be my first or even second choice, though. In a better parallel universe, there is no question that Palestine should be exactly on the '67 borders and with the right of return, but this will never happen, so whatever.

In an even more ideal world, by far the best solution would be a single bi-national, secular state from river to sea, with full integration between Arabs and Jews under equal citizenship and equal protection and equal rights under the law. That'd be quite something, wouldn't it? Well, ain't gonna happen. Sometimes we gotta go for second or third best. The only certain thing is that the status quo is going to result in the decimation of the Palestinian people, and that cannot occur - for humanity's sake.

 

[JBeukema]

JB's Proposal: Get and stay out of it. Let them make their peace or their war. Stop putting a target on our back by meddling in this mess.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

JB's Proposal: Get and stay out of it. Let them make their peace or their war. Stop putting a target on our back by meddling in this mess.

When you say stay out, you also mean aid to Israel, Egypt and Jordan?

 

[JBeukema]

JB's Proposal: Get and stay out of it. Let them make their peace or their war. Stop putting a target on our back by meddling in this mess.

When you say stay out, you also mean aid to Israel, Egypt and Jordan?

Affirmative.

If they want any sort of aid, then let them argue their case for it. The aid related to the I/P situation should be ended along with the rest of our involvement.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

The withdrawal to 67 borders with the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine isn't gonna happen.

This would be the most workable solution:

Dr. Epsilon A. Delta's Middle East Peace Initiative

Borders
- The land ratio of historic Palestine remains the same - 78% for Israel, 22% for Palestine (a sad and unfair reality, but the reality nonetheless).
- Israel gets to annex the settlements as established in the 2001 Taba Summit, which Palestinians accepted. An equivalent amount of Israel's land is allocated to Palestine, probably around the northern WB, the Negev, and padding around Gaza for a potential bridge between it and the WB.

Refugees
- All Palestinian refugees can settle in the new Palestinian state, or work out arrangements with current host countries and third countries with massive financial support of the international community.
- As much as it would be fair for Israel to at least take a tiny, symbolic amount of refugees, it's obvious this is never going to happen, and I'm pretty sure the Palestinians know this. =\

Jerusalem
- A divided Jerusalem as capital of both states, both connected to their respective territories, with Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods (and the Western Wall) and Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighbors, under a framework of an open city (as per Taba). The Temple Mount would be ruled jointly by both sides equally.

Security
- International observers deployed along the new border for a temporary amount of time (~5 years).
- Palestine will control it's own borders, air space, Gaza's coast, and underground (including water) resources within it's territory.
- Israel keeps 3 early warning stations in Palestine (as per Taba), with about 12-18 months to withdraw from the rest of the West Bank.
- On the Subject of a Palestinian Military: I totally reject the idea that Israel or anyone else demand that Palestine be a demilitarized state, but nonetheless I strongly back the idea that Palestinians themselves should opt for a de-militarized state as the most effective way to ensure its security (I know that sounds ironic to most people, but it's not). Thankfully, they did accede to this idea, and have agreed to be classified as a "state with limited arms" along with Costa Rica, Panama, Iceland and others.

Mutual Recognition
- Both states should diplomatically recognize the other as the sovereign entity that rules over the territory within the agreed boundaries and absolutely nothing more, just like virtually every other state in the world. The idea that Israel has to recognize Palestine as a "Muslim Arab State" or that Palestine has to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" is moronic. Whether Israel wants to consider itself a Jewish state or not is entirely for itself to decide, not for anybody else. When the Islamic Republic was declared in Iran, nobody was forced to recognize it as a "Muslim Persian State" - it simply was recognized as the entity exercising sovereignty over this particular piece of land, and it happened to be populated and ruled by Muslim Persian people. When the US declared independence, nobody was forced to recognize it as the "State of the Protestant White immigrant community in the Americas" or as the "State of the Anglo-Saxon, German, and other European descendants" or "a multicultural state with equal protection" - it was simply recognized as a country, whatever its internal configuration being entirely irrelevant for international recognition, squarely handled internally, and with absolutely no need for validation by anybody.

---

So that's my plan, virtually the same as the Taba plan which both parties agreed was "the closest they've ever come to reach a final agreement" before it was abandon by Israel after Barak was unceremoniously ousted by Sharon in the Israeli elections and Clinton gave way to Bush. It's not perfect but it's workable and reasonable people on both sides could agree to this. This would not be my first or even second choice, though. In a better parallel universe, there is no question that Palestine should be exactly on the '67 borders and with the right of return, but this will never happen, so whatever.

In an even more ideal world, by far the best solution would be a single bi-national, secular state from river to sea, with full integration between Arabs and Jews under equal citizenship and equal protection and equal rights under the law. That'd be quite something, wouldn't it? Well, ain't gonna happen. Sometimes we gotta go for second or third best. The only certain thing is that the status quo is going to result in the decimation of the Palestinian people, and that cannot occur - for humanity's sake.

What's wrong with your plan? Its the elephant in the room. Everyone knows that this is the plan for peace. There is not much more to negotiate. I am sure (from leaked cables on Ha'Aretz) that Abbas supports this plan. It is Netanyahu and the Israelis that don't want to part with the dream of greater Israel including "Judea and Sumaria." Therefore the Palestinians, ironically "don't have a partner for peace."

I think the UN recognition is their best option. I think it is a mistake for the US to say they will veto this. Make the Israelis sweat a bit. The US has little leverage because of the greedy, stupid and corrupt Congress undermines executive authority in these matters. At least the UN recognition vote offers some leverage.

The other option is to say, "Ok, we've had enough." Close down the Palestinian Authority and let Israel become the full-time occupier again instead of outsourcing such things to the Palestinians. Then there can be a strategy of non-violent demonstrations for the right to vote for candidates in the Knesset. This may be the best path towards a two state solution.