Peace deal

[SergeGainsbourg]

JB's Proposal: Get and stay out of it. Let them make their peace or their war. Stop putting a target on our back by meddling in this mess.

When you say stay out, you also mean aid to Israel, Egypt and Jordan?

Affirmative.

If they want any sort of aid, then let them argue their case for it. The aid related to the I/P situation should be ended along with the rest of our involvement.

Ok, fair enough, but since we haven't ended the aid and probably won't then we do have standing in ending the conflict.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The only peace deal offered to the Palestinians is for them to surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out for whatever few crumbs Israel might want to give them.

The Palestinians have not yet lost the war Israel started in 1947. Israel has won nothing.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The only peace deal offered to the Palestinians is for them to surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out for whatever few crumbs Israel might want to give them.

The Palestinians have not yet lost the war Israel started in 1947. Israel has won nothing.

The reason Palestine should be disarmed is that Iran would try to use it to move into that area. It is because of people like you, Mr. Tinmore, that hard-liners like Netanyahu come into power, instead of someone like Tzipi Livni, because you refuse to recognise an Israel alongside a Palestine. (Not that I'm too enthusistic about a 23rd Arab state, but I'd like for the conflict to end already.) You are a constant reminder to me why there can never be peace over there.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The withdrawal to 67 borders with the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine isn't gonna happen.

This would be the most workable solution:

Dr. Epsilon A. Delta's Middle East Peace Initiative

Borders
- The land ratio of historic Palestine remains the same - 78% for Israel, 22% for Palestine (a sad and unfair reality, but the reality nonetheless).
- Israel gets to annex the settlements as established in the 2001 Taba Summit, which Palestinians accepted. An equivalent amount of Israel's land is allocated to Palestine, probably around the northern WB, the Negev, and padding around Gaza for a potential bridge between it and the WB.

Refugees
- All Palestinian refugees can settle in the new Palestinian state, or work out arrangements with current host countries and third countries with massive financial support of the international community.
- As much as it would be fair for Israel to at least take a tiny, symbolic amount of refugees, it's obvious this is never going to happen, and I'm pretty sure the Palestinians know this. =\

Jerusalem
- A divided Jerusalem as capital of both states, both connected to their respective territories, with Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods (and the Western Wall) and Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighbors, under a framework of an open city (as per Taba). The Temple Mount would be ruled jointly by both sides equally.

Security
- International observers deployed along the new border for a temporary amount of time (~5 years).
- Palestine will control it's own borders, air space, Gaza's coast, and underground (including water) resources within it's territory.
- Israel keeps 3 early warning stations in Palestine (as per Taba), with about 12-18 months to withdraw from the rest of the West Bank.
- On the Subject of a Palestinian Military: I totally reject the idea that Israel or anyone else demand that Palestine be a demilitarized state, but nonetheless I strongly back the idea that Palestinians themselves should opt for a de-militarized state as the most effective way to ensure its security (I know that sounds ironic to most people, but it's not). Thankfully, they did accede to this idea, and have agreed to be classified as a "state with limited arms" along with Costa Rica, Panama, Iceland and others.

Mutual Recognition
- Both states should diplomatically recognize the other as the sovereign entity that rules over the territory within the agreed boundaries and absolutely nothing more, just like virtually every other state in the world. The idea that Israel has to recognize Palestine as a "Muslim Arab State" or that Palestine has to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" is moronic. Whether Israel wants to consider itself a Jewish state or not is entirely for itself to decide, not for anybody else. When the Islamic Republic was declared in Iran, nobody was forced to recognize it as a "Muslim Persian State" - it simply was recognized as the entity exercising sovereignty over this particular piece of land, and it happened to be populated and ruled by Muslim Persian people. When the US declared independence, nobody was forced to recognize it as the "State of the Protestant White immigrant community in the Americas" or as the "State of the Anglo-Saxon, German, and other European descendants" or "a multicultural state with equal protection" - it was simply recognized as a country, whatever its internal configuration being entirely irrelevant for international recognition, squarely handled internally, and with absolutely no need for validation by anybody.

---

So that's my plan, virtually the same as the Taba plan which both parties agreed was "the closest they've ever come to reach a final agreement" before it was abandon by Israel after Barak was unceremoniously ousted by Sharon in the Israeli elections and Clinton gave way to Bush. It's not perfect but it's workable and reasonable people on both sides could agree to this. This would not be my first or even second choice, though. In a better parallel universe, there is no question that Palestine should be exactly on the '67 borders and with the right of return, but this will never happen, so whatever.

In an even more ideal world, by far the best solution would be a single bi-national, secular state from river to sea, with full integration between Arabs and Jews under equal citizenship and equal protection and equal rights under the law. That'd be quite something, wouldn't it? Well, ain't gonna happen. Sometimes we gotta go for second or third best. The only certain thing is that the status quo is going to result in the decimation of the Palestinian people, and that cannot occur - for humanity's sake.

Mr. Delta, when you say that 78% goes to the Israelis and only 22% to the Palestinians, you have to remember that Britain lopped off three-quarters of Mandatory Palestine in 1922 to create an artificial country named Trans-jordan.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The only peace deal offered to the Palestinians is for them to surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out for whatever few crumbs Israel might want to give them.

The Palestinians have not yet lost the war Israel started in 1947. Israel has won nothing.

The reason Palestine should be disarmed is that Iran would try to use it to move into that area. It is because of people like you, Mr. Tinmore, that hard-liners like Netanyahu come into power, instead of someone like Tzipi Livni, because you refuse to recognise an Israel alongside a Palestine. (Not that I'm too enthusistic about a 23rd Arab state, but I'd like for the conflict to end already.) You are a constant reminder to me why there can never be peace over there.

It is quite a shuffle to get Israel alongside of Palestine when Israel is now inside Palestine. That simple fact seems to elude people.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

The only peace deal offered to the Palestinians is for them to surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out for whatever few crumbs Israel might want to give them.

The Palestinians have not yet lost the war Israel started in 1947. Israel has won nothing.

The reason Palestine should be disarmed is that Iran would try to use it to move into that area. It is because of people like you, Mr. Tinmore, that hard-liners like Netanyahu come into power, instead of someone like Tzipi Livni, because you refuse to recognise an Israel alongside a Palestine. (Not that I'm too enthusistic about a 23rd Arab state, but I'd like for the conflict to end already.) You are a constant reminder to me why there can never be peace over there.

It is quite a shuffle to get Israel alongside of Palestine when Israel is now inside Palestine. That simple fact seems to elude people.

Same problem in Bosnia getting Bosnia inside Yugoslavia.

 

[Jroc]

The withdrawal to 67 borders with the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine isn't gonna happen.

This would be the most workable solution:

Dr. Epsilon A. Delta's Middle East Peace Initiative

Borders
- The land ratio of historic Palestine remains the same - 78% for Israel, 22% for Palestine (a sad and unfair reality, but the reality nonetheless).
- Israel gets to annex the settlements as established in the 2001 Taba Summit, which Palestinians accepted. An equivalent amount of Israel's land is allocated to Palestine, probably around the northern WB, the Negev, and padding around Gaza for a potential bridge between it and the WB.

Refugees
- All Palestinian refugees can settle in the new Palestinian state, or work out arrangements with current host countries and third countries with massive financial support of the international community.
- As much as it would be fair for Israel to at least take a tiny, symbolic amount of refugees, it's obvious this is never going to happen, and I'm pretty sure the Palestinians know this. =\

Jerusalem
- A divided Jerusalem as capital of both states, both connected to their respective territories, with Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods (and the Western Wall) and Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighbors, under a framework of an open city (as per Taba). The Temple Mount would be ruled jointly by both sides equally.

Security
- International observers deployed along the new border for a temporary amount of time (~5 years).
- Palestine will control it's own borders, air space, Gaza's coast, and underground (including water) resources within it's territory.
- Israel keeps 3 early warning stations in Palestine (as per Taba), with about 12-18 months to withdraw from the rest of the West Bank.
- On the Subject of a Palestinian Military: I totally reject the idea that Israel or anyone else demand that Palestine be a demilitarized state, but nonetheless I strongly back the idea that Palestinians themselves should opt for a de-militarized state as the most effective way to ensure its security (I know that sounds ironic to most people, but it's not). Thankfully, they did accede to this idea, and have agreed to be classified as a "state with limited arms" along with Costa Rica, Panama, Iceland and others.

Mutual Recognition
- Both states should diplomatically recognize the other as the sovereign entity that rules over the territory within the agreed boundaries and absolutely nothing more, just like virtually every other state in the world. The idea that Israel has to recognize Palestine as a "Muslim Arab State" or that Palestine has to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" is moronic. Whether Israel wants to consider itself a Jewish state or not is entirely for itself to decide, not for anybody else. When the Islamic Republic was declared in Iran, nobody was forced to recognize it as a "Muslim Persian State" - it simply was recognized as the entity exercising sovereignty over this particular piece of land, and it happened to be populated and ruled by Muslim Persian people. When the US declared independence, nobody was forced to recognize it as the "State of the Protestant White immigrant community in the Americas" or as the "State of the Anglo-Saxon, German, and other European descendants" or "a multicultural state with equal protection" - it was simply recognized as a country, whatever its internal configuration being entirely irrelevant for international recognition, squarely handled internally, and with absolutely no need for validation by anybody.

---

So that's my plan, virtually the same as the Taba plan which both parties agreed was "the closest they've ever come to reach a final agreement" before it was abandon by Israel after Barak was unceremoniously ousted by Sharon in the Israeli elections and Clinton gave way to Bush. It's not perfect but it's workable and reasonable people on both sides could agree to this. This would not be my first or even second choice, though. In a better parallel universe, there is no question that Palestine should be exactly on the '67 borders and with the right of return, but this will never happen, so whatever.

In an even more ideal world, by far the best solution would be a single bi-national, secular state from river to sea, with full integration between Arabs and Jews under equal citizenship and equal protection and equal rights under the law. That'd be quite something, wouldn't it? Well, ain't gonna happen. Sometimes we gotta go for second or third best. The only certain thing is that the status quo is going to result in the decimation of the Palestinian people, and that cannot occur - for humanity's sake.

Nice plan, but I think I'll let the Israeli military decide what they need to secure Israel, not a bunch of bureaucrats and intellectuals...Nice thesis though professer.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0]YouTube - ‪Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace‬‏[/ame]

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

The withdrawal to 67 borders with the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine isn't gonna happen.

This would be the most workable solution:

Dr. Epsilon A. Delta's Middle East Peace Initiative

Borders
- The land ratio of historic Palestine remains the same - 78% for Israel, 22% for Palestine (a sad and unfair reality, but the reality nonetheless).
- Israel gets to annex the settlements as established in the 2001 Taba Summit, which Palestinians accepted. An equivalent amount of Israel's land is allocated to Palestine, probably around the northern WB, the Negev, and padding around Gaza for a potential bridge between it and the WB.

Refugees
- All Palestinian refugees can settle in the new Palestinian state, or work out arrangements with current host countries and third countries with massive financial support of the international community.
- As much as it would be fair for Israel to at least take a tiny, symbolic amount of refugees, it's obvious this is never going to happen, and I'm pretty sure the Palestinians know this. =\

Jerusalem
- A divided Jerusalem as capital of both states, both connected to their respective territories, with Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods (and the Western Wall) and Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighbors, under a framework of an open city (as per Taba). The Temple Mount would be ruled jointly by both sides equally.

Security
- International observers deployed along the new border for a temporary amount of time (~5 years).
- Palestine will control it's own borders, air space, Gaza's coast, and underground (including water) resources within it's territory.
- Israel keeps 3 early warning stations in Palestine (as per Taba), with about 12-18 months to withdraw from the rest of the West Bank.
- On the Subject of a Palestinian Military: I totally reject the idea that Israel or anyone else demand that Palestine be a demilitarized state, but nonetheless I strongly back the idea that Palestinians themselves should opt for a de-militarized state as the most effective way to ensure its security (I know that sounds ironic to most people, but it's not). Thankfully, they did accede to this idea, and have agreed to be classified as a "state with limited arms" along with Costa Rica, Panama, Iceland and others.

Mutual Recognition
- Both states should diplomatically recognize the other as the sovereign entity that rules over the territory within the agreed boundaries and absolutely nothing more, just like virtually every other state in the world. The idea that Israel has to recognize Palestine as a "Muslim Arab State" or that Palestine has to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" is moronic. Whether Israel wants to consider itself a Jewish state or not is entirely for itself to decide, not for anybody else. When the Islamic Republic was declared in Iran, nobody was forced to recognize it as a "Muslim Persian State" - it simply was recognized as the entity exercising sovereignty over this particular piece of land, and it happened to be populated and ruled by Muslim Persian people. When the US declared independence, nobody was forced to recognize it as the "State of the Protestant White immigrant community in the Americas" or as the "State of the Anglo-Saxon, German, and other European descendants" or "a multicultural state with equal protection" - it was simply recognized as a country, whatever its internal configuration being entirely irrelevant for international recognition, squarely handled internally, and with absolutely no need for validation by anybody.

---

So that's my plan, virtually the same as the Taba plan which both parties agreed was "the closest they've ever come to reach a final agreement" before it was abandon by Israel after Barak was unceremoniously ousted by Sharon in the Israeli elections and Clinton gave way to Bush. It's not perfect but it's workable and reasonable people on both sides could agree to this. This would not be my first or even second choice, though. In a better parallel universe, there is no question that Palestine should be exactly on the '67 borders and with the right of return, but this will never happen, so whatever.

In an even more ideal world, by far the best solution would be a single bi-national, secular state from river to sea, with full integration between Arabs and Jews under equal citizenship and equal protection and equal rights under the law. That'd be quite something, wouldn't it? Well, ain't gonna happen. Sometimes we gotta go for second or third best. The only certain thing is that the status quo is going to result in the decimation of the Palestinian people, and that cannot occur - for humanity's sake.

Nice plan, but I think I'll let the Israeli military decide what they need to secure Israel, not a bunch of bureaucrats and intellectuals...Nice thesis though professer.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0]YouTube - ‪Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace‬‏[/ame]

Did you come out from under your pillow crying about how people are being mean to you here?

 

[Jroc]

The withdrawal to 67 borders with the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine isn't gonna happen.

This would be the most workable solution:

Dr. Epsilon A. Delta's Middle East Peace Initiative

Borders
- The land ratio of historic Palestine remains the same - 78% for Israel, 22% for Palestine (a sad and unfair reality, but the reality nonetheless).
- Israel gets to annex the settlements as established in the 2001 Taba Summit, which Palestinians accepted. An equivalent amount of Israel's land is allocated to Palestine, probably around the northern WB, the Negev, and padding around Gaza for a potential bridge between it and the WB.

Refugees
- All Palestinian refugees can settle in the new Palestinian state, or work out arrangements with current host countries and third countries with massive financial support of the international community.
- As much as it would be fair for Israel to at least take a tiny, symbolic amount of refugees, it's obvious this is never going to happen, and I'm pretty sure the Palestinians know this. =\

Jerusalem
- A divided Jerusalem as capital of both states, both connected to their respective territories, with Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods (and the Western Wall) and Palestinian sovereignty over Arab neighbors, under a framework of an open city (as per Taba). The Temple Mount would be ruled jointly by both sides equally.

Security
- International observers deployed along the new border for a temporary amount of time (~5 years).
- Palestine will control it's own borders, air space, Gaza's coast, and underground (including water) resources within it's territory.
- Israel keeps 3 early warning stations in Palestine (as per Taba), with about 12-18 months to withdraw from the rest of the West Bank.
- On the Subject of a Palestinian Military: I totally reject the idea that Israel or anyone else demand that Palestine be a demilitarized state, but nonetheless I strongly back the idea that Palestinians themselves should opt for a de-militarized state as the most effective way to ensure its security (I know that sounds ironic to most people, but it's not). Thankfully, they did accede to this idea, and have agreed to be classified as a "state with limited arms" along with Costa Rica, Panama, Iceland and others.

Mutual Recognition
- Both states should diplomatically recognize the other as the sovereign entity that rules over the territory within the agreed boundaries and absolutely nothing more, just like virtually every other state in the world. The idea that Israel has to recognize Palestine as a "Muslim Arab State" or that Palestine has to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" is moronic. Whether Israel wants to consider itself a Jewish state or not is entirely for itself to decide, not for anybody else. When the Islamic Republic was declared in Iran, nobody was forced to recognize it as a "Muslim Persian State" - it simply was recognized as the entity exercising sovereignty over this particular piece of land, and it happened to be populated and ruled by Muslim Persian people. When the US declared independence, nobody was forced to recognize it as the "State of the Protestant White immigrant community in the Americas" or as the "State of the Anglo-Saxon, German, and other European descendants" or "a multicultural state with equal protection" - it was simply recognized as a country, whatever its internal configuration being entirely irrelevant for international recognition, squarely handled internally, and with absolutely no need for validation by anybody.

---

So that's my plan, virtually the same as the Taba plan which both parties agreed was "the closest they've ever come to reach a final agreement" before it was abandon by Israel after Barak was unceremoniously ousted by Sharon in the Israeli elections and Clinton gave way to Bush. It's not perfect but it's workable and reasonable people on both sides could agree to this. This would not be my first or even second choice, though. In a better parallel universe, there is no question that Palestine should be exactly on the '67 borders and with the right of return, but this will never happen, so whatever.

In an even more ideal world, by far the best solution would be a single bi-national, secular state from river to sea, with full integration between Arabs and Jews under equal citizenship and equal protection and equal rights under the law. That'd be quite something, wouldn't it? Well, ain't gonna happen. Sometimes we gotta go for second or third best. The only certain thing is that the status quo is going to result in the decimation of the Palestinian people, and that cannot occur - for humanity's sake.

Nice plan, but I think I'll let the Israeli military decide what they need to secure Israel, not a bunch of bureaucrats and intellectuals...Nice thesis though professer.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0]YouTube - ‪Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace‬‏[/ame]

Did you come out from under your pillow crying about how people are being mean to you here?

Mean...Please... I don't have time to be on this board as much as some of you people... I've got a life.... Quit acting like a little kid you're embarrassing yourself

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Nice plan, but I think I'll let the Israeli military decide what they need to secure Israel, not a bunch of bureaucrats and intellectuals...Nice thesis though professer.



YouTube - ‪Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace‬‏

Did you come out from under your pillow crying about how people are being mean to you here?

Mean...Please... I don't have time to be on this board as much as some of you people... I've got a life.... Quit acting like a little kid you're embarrassing yourself

So you do agree with the previous characterization of your approach to discourse?

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Nice plan, but I think I'll let the Israeli military decide what they need to secure Israel, not a bunch of bureaucrats and intellectuals...Nice thesis though professer.



YouTube - ‪Israel's Critical Security Needs for a Viable Peace‬‏

Did you come out from under your pillow crying about how people are being mean to you here?

Mean...Please... I don't have time to be on this board as much as some of you people... I've got a life.... Quit acting like a little kid you're embarrassing yourself

JROC- I just saw you called me an idiot in the reputation thing. Are you sure you're not projecting my good friend. After all you are the one who is more willing to chant slogans and call people names rather than engage in rational fact-based discourse. Are you feeling a bit testy? I'm sure you can do better. If you believe in your arguments so much, I bet you could do a better job of making them. I can't believe you're that lazy. Maybe you can try a bit--we'll go easy on you since it may be a bit new.

 

[bluemoon22]

Israel withdraws to '67 borders, except for Jerusalem, which it keeps. Israeli settlers become citizens of Palestine, and no Israeli soldiers in the Jordan Valley. Palestine should have no military. No Palestinian "refugees" or their descendants can come back to Israel--they must be absorbed inside of Palestine. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they must recognise Israel and renounce terror. Special arrangements must be worked out for Abraham, Rachel, and Joseph's Tombs. "End of conflict" papers to be signed, with no further demands ever. Take it or leave it.

So Palestinians give up everything and the Zionists virtually nothing....not going to happen

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Israel withdraws to '67 borders, except for Jerusalem, which it keeps. Israeli settlers become citizens of Palestine, and no Israeli soldiers in the Jordan Valley. Palestine should have no military. No Palestinian "refugees" or their descendants can come back to Israel--they must be absorbed inside of Palestine. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they must recognise Israel and renounce terror. Special arrangements must be worked out for Abraham, Rachel, and Joseph's Tombs. "End of conflict" papers to be signed, with no further demands ever. Take it or leave it.

So Palestinians give up everything and the Zionists virtually nothing....not going to happen

Zionists? You won't call them Israelis? How come?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel withdraws to '67 borders, except for Jerusalem, which it keeps. Israeli settlers become citizens of Palestine, and no Israeli soldiers in the Jordan Valley. Palestine should have no military. No Palestinian "refugees" or their descendants can come back to Israel--they must be absorbed inside of Palestine. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously, they must recognise Israel and renounce terror. Special arrangements must be worked out for Abraham, Rachel, and Joseph's Tombs. "End of conflict" papers to be signed, with no further demands ever. Take it or leave it.

So Palestinians give up everything and the Zionists virtually nothing....not going to happen

Zionists? You won't call them Israelis? How come?

Israelis are not a monolithic block. The leadership has always been Zionists but the people have a wide variety of beliefs.

 

[Jroc]

Did you come out from under your pillow crying about how people are being mean to you here?

Mean...Please... I don't have time to be on this board as much as some of you people... I've got a life.... Quit acting like a little kid you're embarrassing yourself

JROC- I just saw you called me an idiot in the reputation thing. Are you sure you're not projecting my good friend. After all you are the one who is more willing to chant slogans and call people names rather than engage in rational fact-based discourse. Are you feeling a bit testy? I'm sure you can do better. If you believe in your arguments so much, I bet you could do a better job of making them. I can't believe you're that lazy. Maybe you can try a bit--we'll go easy on you since it may be a bit new.

I like the word, I’ll use it for naive people too such as yourself. people like you who fail to grasp the fact that Israel is surrounded by its enemies, and any peace deal must secure the country FIRST, after that they can negotiate. Most all the surrounding people want Israel eliminated, and for people to continue to ignore that fact and talk about peace deals that would jeopardize Israeli's existence is a non-starter and thats the problem with you and people like you, including Jstreet and other Jews that are used as tools, and after they are done being used by the wacko muslims extremist ,they'll be the first to be eliminated, Israel is not going to let that happened.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Mean...Please... I don't have time to be on this board as much as some of you people... I've got a life.... Quit acting like a little kid you're embarrassing yourself

JROC- I just saw you called me an idiot in the reputation thing. Are you sure you're not projecting my good friend. After all you are the one who is more willing to chant slogans and call people names rather than engage in rational fact-based discourse. Are you feeling a bit testy? I'm sure you can do better. If you believe in your arguments so much, I bet you could do a better job of making them. I can't believe you're that lazy. Maybe you can try a bit--we'll go easy on you since it may be a bit new.

I like the word, I’ll use it for naive people too such as yourself. people like you who fail to grasp the fact that Israel is surrounded by its enemies, and any peace deal must secure the country FIRST, after that they can negotiate. Most all the surrounding people want Israel eliminated, and for people to continue to ignore that fact and talk about peace deals that would jeopardize Israeli's existence is a non-starter and thats the problem with you and people like you, including Jstreet and other Jews that are used as tools, and after they are done being used by the wacko muslims extremist ,they'll be the first to be eliminated, Israel is not going to let that happened.

Does your definition of Israel include the entire West Bank?

Also, what does "too such as yourself" mean? Are you sure you've mastered the English language?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Mean...Please... I don't have time to be on this board as much as some of you people... I've got a life.... Quit acting like a little kid you're embarrassing yourself

JROC- I just saw you called me an idiot in the reputation thing. Are you sure you're not projecting my good friend. After all you are the one who is more willing to chant slogans and call people names rather than engage in rational fact-based discourse. Are you feeling a bit testy? I'm sure you can do better. If you believe in your arguments so much, I bet you could do a better job of making them. I can't believe you're that lazy. Maybe you can try a bit--we'll go easy on you since it may be a bit new.

I like the word, I’ll use it for naive people too such as yourself. people like you who fail to grasp the fact that Israel is surrounded by its enemies, and any peace deal must secure the country FIRST, after that they can negotiate. Most all the surrounding people want Israel eliminated, and for people to continue to ignore that fact and talk about peace deals that would jeopardize Israeli's existence is a non-starter and thats the problem with you and people like you, including Jstreet and other Jews that are used as tools, and after they are done being used by the wacko muslims extremist ,they'll be the first to be eliminated, Israel is not going to let that happened.

Most all the surrounding people want Israel eliminated

So, why is that a problem for you? Before Israel there was peace and prosperity. Since Israel there has been nothing but death and destruction.

Why do you like death and destruction?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Mr. Delta, when you say that 78% goes to the Israelis and only 22% to the Palestinians, you have to remember that Britain lopped off three-quarters of Mandatory Palestine in 1922 to create an artificial country named Trans-jordan.

Well, strictly speaking the British Palestine Mandate itself was entirely artificial [in Fact, one could really make the case that virtually all borders are artificial] - before its creation in 1920 the land historically known as Palestine was roughly the borders of Israel, West Bank and Gaza (previously some 3 or 4 differeent administrative divisions of the Ottoman empire), and Transjordan was made up of another couple of Ottoman regions. This space only existed as a single political entity from 1920 to 1922 after the Transjordan memorandum., after which they were governed separately. I'm failing to see what your point is, though.

The only peace deal offered to the Palestinians is for them to surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out for whatever few crumbs Israel might want to give them.

The Palestinians have not yet lost the war Israel started in 1947. Israel has won nothing.

Sorry Tinmore, but that's just not true. The Palestinians did lose the war. They've lost every war, and they're still losing, and they're going to keep losing as long as they think of it as a war to be won militarily. Sometimes we have to face the facts, no matter how terrible they may be. =\

Nice plan, but I think I'll let the Israeli military decide what they need to secure Israel, not a bunch of bureaucrats and intellectuals...Nice thesis though professer. [...]

I like the word, I’ll use it for naive people too such as yourself. people like you who fail to grasp the fact that Israel is surrounded by its enemies, and any peace deal must secure the country FIRST, after that they can negotiate. Most all the surrounding people want Israel eliminated, and for people to continue to ignore that fact and talk about peace deals that would jeopardize Israeli's existence is a non-starter and thats the problem with you and people like you, including Jstreet and other Jews that are used as tools, and after they are done being used by the wacko muslims extremist ,they'll be the first to be eliminated, Israel is not going to let that happened. :cool

Thanks for the compliment but I'm not interested in propaganda from either side.

I'll reiterate what is the simple truth:

- Israel's army is among the top 10 best equipped, armed, and trained militaries on the planet.
- Israel is virtually a regional superpower with unmatched military capability.
- Israel has already defeated multiple combined Arab armies in multiple occasions from borders equal to or even less "defensible" than those of today.
- Since the last such war, Israel's military capability has come light years ahead of both Jordan's and Syria's.
- Israel spends an amount equal to the entire gross domestic product of the Palestinian territories on its army.
- Israel has THE BOMB.

All of the Israeli right seems perfectly content to obscure these facts endlessly [you yourself chose to ignore it in a previous recent thread]. The fact of the matter is that any potential Arab invasion of Israel would result in the evaporation of Cairo, Riyadh, Damascus, and Tehran within half an hour - everybody knows this. The real threat to Israel's security is keeping this brutal occupation flashing in living rooms across the Middle East and the world at large and given credence to the extremist retards in the rest of the region which can then engage in activities which flash in Israeli living rooms and give credence to the violent, expansionist Israeli right. You and people like you (whether Jewish, Arab, Christian or anything else) have to have to take your own share of responsibility for being essentially duped into keeping this stupid cycle of hate and violence going and realize that the majority of Jews don't want to exterminate Arabs and the majority of Arabs don't want to exterminate Jews. You are all being fucking manipulated.

Most all the surrounding people want Israel eliminated

So, why is that a problem for you? Before Israel there was peace and prosperity. Since Israel there has been nothing but death and destruction.

Why do you like death and destruction?

C'mon PF, c'mon. You know I agree with you on most of this stuff, but here you're really just stooping to their level. The only way to deal with this conflict is to stay grounded in REALITY. The point you're making right here is equivalent to the point that these pro-Israeli violence jokers take. They use this sort of thinking as an excuse to impose conditions on the Palestinians (like recognizing Israel as a "Jewish State") and it fuels their overwhelming sense of insecurity.

The REALITY is that Israel exists as a state, de fact and de jure, internationally recognized on it's 1967 boundaries, with a fully capable state and an overwhelmingly powerful military - Israel as it exists today is not going anywhere. As terrible as it is for original inhabitants of Palestine, there is nothing to do about the Nakba now. We cannot keep hoping for a reversal of this reality while the Palestinian people are being oppressed, humiliated, and murdered on the street today. As right as it might be it is simply not sustainable.

This might be the worst thing about this conflict, from my point of view. I think very few people can deny that, at least in 1948, it is perfectly reasonable for Jews to want their own state. This is perfectly understandable. And they have a right to self-determination as any other people. The problem is that to correct this unspeakable wrong committed against them, they went ahead to commit an unspeakable wrong to someone else who had nothing to do with it. People like talking about how "evil" the Arabs of Palestine are for wanting to keep the Jews out in '48, but is this not entirely understandable from their point of view as well? They had nothing to do with the brutal genocide against the Jews, and yet they paid the full price - with their blood and their homes. Nobody would've accepted this if it had happened to them - not the Americans, or anywhere in Africa, or Latin America or Europe or Asia or Australia. It just would not have flown. Now we're here, and we can all talk about how evil one side or the other is, when both sides in reality have a point, and the only thing to do about it is to understand this and move on, and recognize the reality, and stop listening to the voices of hate and violence and establish the two fucking states so that we can all start worrying about other more important shit for chrissakes.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sorry Tinmore, but that's just not true. The Palestinians did lose the war. They've lost every war, and they're still losing,

"Losing" is present tense. But, the Palestinians have not lost. Israel started a war with Palestine before 1948. The process of getting the Palestinians to surrender and make a peace agreement is the process we have seen fail since 1993.

The REALITY is that Israel exists as a state, de fact and de jure, internationally recognized on it's 1967 boundaries

Interesting. The 1967 borders are the 1949 armistice lines. The UN armistice agreements specifically stated that they were not to be political or national borders.

A legitimate state must have territory inside defined borders. Israel has no territory inside any defined borders.

The UN recognizes Israel inside "borders" that the UN specifically stated are not to be borders. Israel's recognition is a political, de facto recognition. It cannot be de jure until it obtains land inside defined borders.

 

[Jroc]

Thanks for the compliment but I'm not interested in propaganda from either side.

I'll reiterate what is the simple truth:

- Israel's army is among the top 10 best equipped, armed, and trained militaries on the planet.
- Israel is virtually a regional superpower with unmatched military capability.
- Israel has already defeated multiple combined Arab armies in multiple occasions from borders equal to or even less "defensible" than those of today.
- Since the last such war, Israel's military capability has come light years ahead of both Jordan's and Syria's.
- Israel spends an amount equal to the entire gross domestic product of the Palestinian territories on its army.
- Israel has THE BOMB.

All of the Israeli right seems perfectly content to obscure these facts endlessly [you yourself chose to ignore it in a previous recent thread]. The fact of the matter is that any potential Arab invasion of Israel would result in the evaporation of Cairo, Riyadh, Damascus, and Tehran within half an hour - everybody knows this. The real threat to Israel's security is keeping this brutal occupation flashing in living rooms across the Middle East and the world at large and given credence to the extremist retards in the rest of the region which can then engage in activities which flash in Israeli living rooms and give credence to the violent, expansionist Israeli right. You and people like you (whether Jewish, Arab, Christian or anything else) have to have to take your own share of responsibility for being essentially duped into keeping this stupid cycle of hate and violence going and realize that the majority of Jews don't want to exterminate Arabs and the majority of Arabs don't want to exterminate Jews. You are all being fucking manipulated.

You just don't get it...It doesn't matter that Israel has the strongest military in the Mideast, the muslims will not accept a Jewish state that’s the bottom line. Radicalism is spreading and kids are being brainwashed to hate Jews, this goes on throughout the muslim world and muslims communities in Europe and in the U.S. who's being manipulated?..There is no logic here. From were you sit your plan may seem like a good idea but you don't seem to have a full grasp of what is going on over there.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo]YouTube - ‪Arabs brainwashed little girls to hate Jews‬‏[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etDb5tXPawc]YouTube - ‪Palestinian Children Taught to Hate Jews‬‏[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uherUeAGFHU]YouTube - ‪Islam: Brainwashed Children Call for Genocide of Jews‬‏[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udDXUZEYUIc]YouTube - ‪Children Taught to Hate Jews‬‏[/ame]