Pay off our debt

[Againsheila]

Yes, compared to Greece or Zimbabwe we are doing great.
Geez, where do they teach this stuff? 1946 was post WW2 and the debt incurred was necessary and limited--once the war ended the need to borrow ended too. This debt is different. It is caused by structural issues in the social spending category that will only grow bigger. This debt has been a drag on the economy, as witnessed by the pitiful growth rate of GDP, coming out of a deep recession.
I disagree we should pay our debt off (and staging bake sales wont do it--the debt is too large for that). But we do need to reduce it to more manageable levels.

Greece or Zimbabwe are smaller economies than the STATE of California.

The 'social spending' you refer to are NOT expendable programs. They MUST be funded. They are essential programs for people who truly fit the definition of dependents. They are not 'lazy' Americans, they are OLD Americans, who can no longer compete in the marketplace to generate the kind of income they once did. They cannot sustain cuts to those programs that will raise their out of pocket costs.

So we have to find a way to lower costs without cutting services and raise revenues.

Edited Most of social spending is waste. Most of it is designed to make people dependent on government. More people signed up for disability last month than got jobs. Do you really think hundreds of thousands of people suddenly became unable to work?

No, I think they had a disability but were able to find work anyway. Now they can't, their only hope is to get disability.

 

[AmyNation]

Greece or Zimbabwe are smaller economies than the STATE of California.

The 'social spending' you refer to are NOT expendable programs. They MUST be funded. They are essential programs for people who truly fit the definition of dependents. They are not 'lazy' Americans, they are OLD Americans, who can no longer compete in the marketplace to generate the kind of income they once did. They cannot sustain cuts to those programs that will raise their out of pocket costs.

So we have to find a way to lower costs without cutting services and raise revenues.

Edited Most of social spending is waste. Most of it is designed to make people dependent on government. More people signed up for disability last month than got jobs. Do you really think hundreds of thousands of people suddenly became unable to work?

No, I think they had a disability but were able to find work anyway. Now they can't, their only hope is to get disability.

I agree.

Not everyone who qualifies for assistance, applies. I know there is this notion that most Americans are lazy leeches but it's simply not true. Many people with disabilities can work certain jobs, and choose to do so.However if the jobs aren't there then of course they are going to seek help.

 

[The Rabbi]

OK, so you agree that disability is riddled with fraud and waste. And that's what needs to be addressed, not additional funding.
As to Medicare, the program needs to be reformed to empower people to spend their own money on their own healthcare. The issue is not the existence of needy people. The issue is that the program is set up in a way to minimize responsibility and encourage over-spending.

Edited.

And, I am willing to bet there are a lot more people who should receive disability but are denied. I know 3 people off the top of my head who had legitimate debilitating injuries who applied for disability and 2 were denied. The one that did receive disability took 2 years of fighting with the state. We held numerous benefits for him so he didn't lose his house.

Medicare is much more efficient and cost effective than private insurance. Medicare has a better track record of controlling costs. Beginning in 1997, the growth in Medicare’s cost per beneficiary has been slower than the cost escalation in coverage delivered by private insurers. Between 2002 and 2006, for example, Medicare’s cost per beneficiary rose 5.4 percent, while per capita costs in private insurance rose 7.7 percent, according to MedPAC, an independent agency charged with advising Congress on Medicare issues.

On July 30, 1965, President Lyndon Johnson signed the law creating Medicare.

At the time, about half of the elderly had no health insurance—they were too old and too likely to get sick, so the private market simply wouldn’t insure them. The elderly were the demographic group most likely to live in poverty, and about one in three older Americans were poor. Blacks and other minorities could not receive treatment in whites-only medical facilities, discrimination that was barred by Medicare.

Now the elderly are among the best-insured Americans, with upward of 95 percent covered by Medicare. The rate of poverty among those 65 and older is under 10 percent. The decline in elderly poverty began with the creation of Social Security—but it accelerated, according to Census Bureau data, only after Medicare coverage began.

So you think many more people were denied disability who were entitled to it than people who were given disability but not entitled?
Medicare's "efficiency" has been debunked many times. They pay for it on the back end in the number of fraudulent claims. This has all been explored and explained on this site many many times over. And it is irrelevant to the idea that Medicare's issue is not empowering people to make their own health care expenditure decisions.

 

[Againsheila]

Edited Most of social spending is waste. Most of it is designed to make people dependent on government. More people signed up for disability last month than got jobs. Do you really think hundreds of thousands of people suddenly became unable to work?

No, I think they had a disability but were able to find work anyway. Now they can't, their only hope is to get disability.

I agree.

Not everyone who qualifies for assistance, applies. I know there is this notion that most Americans are lazy leeches but it's simply not true. Many people with disabilities can work certain jobs, and choose to do so.However if the jobs aren't there then of course they are going to seek help.

I also know many people who've been turned down for disability but are disabled, and disabled people who've worked all their lives in low wage jobs and have no retirement whatsoever. How can you put money aside for retirement when you barely make enough to live on?

Now their bodies are breaking down from all the hard physical labor and they will have no choice but to go on disability.

 

[Intense]

No, I think they had a disability but were able to find work anyway. Now they can't, their only hope is to get disability.

I agree.

Not everyone who qualifies for assistance, applies. I know there is this notion that most Americans are lazy leeches but it's simply not true. Many people with disabilities can work certain jobs, and choose to do so.However if the jobs aren't there then of course they are going to seek help.

I also know many people who've been turned down for disability but are disabled, and disabled people who've worked all their lives in low wage jobs and have no retirement whatsoever. How can you put money aside for retirement when you barely make enough to live on?

Now their bodies are breaking down from all the hard physical labor and they will have no choice but to go on disability.

Either that, Win the Lottery, or better yet, land a Federal job.

 

[The Rabbi]

No, I think they had a disability but were able to find work anyway. Now they can't, their only hope is to get disability.

I agree.

Not everyone who qualifies for assistance, applies. I know there is this notion that most Americans are lazy leeches but it's simply not true. Many people with disabilities can work certain jobs, and choose to do so.However if the jobs aren't there then of course they are going to seek help.

I also know many people who've been turned down for disability but are disabled, and disabled people who've worked all their lives in low wage jobs and have no retirement whatsoever. How can you put money aside for retirement when you barely make enough to live on?

Now their bodies are breaking down from all the hard physical labor and they will have no choice but to go on disability.

One or two hard cases does not amount to evidence.

 

[AmyNation]

No, I think they had a disability but were able to find work anyway. Now they can't, their only hope is to get disability.

I agree.

Not everyone who qualifies for assistance, applies. I know there is this notion that most Americans are lazy leeches but it's simply not true. Many people with disabilities can work certain jobs, and choose to do so.However if the jobs aren't there then of course they are going to seek help.

I also know many people who've been turned down for disability but are disabled, and disabled people who've worked all their lives in low wage jobs and have no retirement whatsoever. How can you put money aside for retirement when you barely make enough to live on?

Now their bodies are breaking down from all the hard physical labor and they will have no choice but to go on disability.

*nods* getting on disability isnt easy, my father is disabled, but not "disabled enough" to qualify for disability. He works full time, and has been told by his doctor that if he keeps working ,in another 10 years he wont be able to get around without a wheelchair.

 

[The Rabbi]

I agree.

Not everyone who qualifies for assistance, applies. I know there is this notion that most Americans are lazy leeches but it's simply not true. Many people with disabilities can work certain jobs, and choose to do so.However if the jobs aren't there then of course they are going to seek help.

I also know many people who've been turned down for disability but are disabled, and disabled people who've worked all their lives in low wage jobs and have no retirement whatsoever. How can you put money aside for retirement when you barely make enough to live on?

Now their bodies are breaking down from all the hard physical labor and they will have no choice but to go on disability.

*nods* getting on disability isnt easy, my father is disabled, but not "disabled enough" to qualify for disability. He works full time, and has been told by his doctor that if he keeps working ,in another 10 years he wont be able to get around without a wheelchair.

A friend of mine is a psychologist who does evals for disability. If the decision were exclusively up to him there would be maybe half the people there are now on it.

 

[Againsheila]

I also know many people who've been turned down for disability but are disabled, and disabled people who've worked all their lives in low wage jobs and have no retirement whatsoever. How can you put money aside for retirement when you barely make enough to live on?

Now their bodies are breaking down from all the hard physical labor and they will have no choice but to go on disability.

*nods* getting on disability isnt easy, my father is disabled, but not "disabled enough" to qualify for disability. He works full time, and has been told by his doctor that if he keeps working ,in another 10 years he wont be able to get around without a wheelchair.

A friend of mine is a psychologist who does evals for disability. If the decision were exclusively up to him there would be maybe half the people there are now on it.

If it were up to me, there would be nobody on it, but I can't make the disabled able anymore than your friend can.

 

[The Rabbi]

*nods* getting on disability isnt easy, my father is disabled, but not "disabled enough" to qualify for disability. He works full time, and has been told by his doctor that if he keeps working ,in another 10 years he wont be able to get around without a wheelchair.

A friend of mine is a psychologist who does evals for disability. If the decision were exclusively up to him there would be maybe half the people there are now on it.

If it were up to me, there would be nobody on it, but I can't make the disabled able anymore than your friend can.

He doesn't need to. All he needs to do is show that they are perfectly able to work at something, which in fact they are.
Anyway, back to the OP. Paying off the debt would involve sucking tremendous resources from the economy, resources that could and usually are put to much better uses.

 

[Againsheila]

A friend of mine is a psychologist who does evals for disability. If the decision were exclusively up to him there would be maybe half the people there are now on it.

If it were up to me, there would be nobody on it, but I can't make the disabled able anymore than your friend can.

He doesn't need to. All he needs to do is show that they are perfectly able to work at something, which in fact they are.
Anyway, back to the OP. Paying off the debt would involve sucking tremendous resources from the economy, resources that could and usually are put to much better uses.

Once the debt is paid off, think of all the resources it will free up. Besides, that's why the telethon. No cutting, no raising taxes ad it's all voluntary.

 

[The Rabbi]

If it were up to me, there would be nobody on it, but I can't make the disabled able anymore than your friend can.

He doesn't need to. All he needs to do is show that they are perfectly able to work at something, which in fact they are.
Anyway, back to the OP. Paying off the debt would involve sucking tremendous resources from the economy, resources that could and usually are put to much better uses.

Once the debt is paid off, think of all the resources it will free up. Besides, that's why the telethon. No cutting, no raising taxes ad it's all voluntary.

What resources will it free up?
Anyway, do you really think every individual in this country is going to come up with $56,000 or whatever the per capita total is? I believe the March of Dimes telethon produces about $10M. That's enough to run the gov't for about 20 minutes.

 

[Againsheila]

He doesn't need to. All he needs to do is show that they are perfectly able to work at something, which in fact they are.
Anyway, back to the OP. Paying off the debt would involve sucking tremendous resources from the economy, resources that could and usually are put to much better uses.

Once the debt is paid off, think of all the resources it will free up. Besides, that's why the telethon. No cutting, no raising taxes ad it's all voluntary.

What resources will it free up?
Anyway, do you really think every individual in this country is going to come up with $56,000 or whatever the per capita total is? I believe the March of Dimes telethon produces about $10M. That's enough to run the gov't for about 20 minutes.

If it goes directly into paying off the debt, that's $10M we no longer owe. 10M our grandchildren won't have to pay.

 

[The Rabbi]

Once the debt is paid off, think of all the resources it will free up. Besides, that's why the telethon. No cutting, no raising taxes ad it's all voluntary.

What resources will it free up?
Anyway, do you really think every individual in this country is going to come up with $56,000 or whatever the per capita total is? I believe the March of Dimes telethon produces about $10M. That's enough to run the gov't for about 20 minutes.

If it goes directly into paying off the debt, that's $10M we no longer owe. 10M our grandchildren won't have to pay.

Really?

 

[Bfgrn]

OK, so you agree that disability is riddled with fraud and waste. And that's what needs to be addressed, not additional funding.
As to Medicare, the program needs to be reformed to empower people to spend their own money on their own healthcare. The issue is not the existence of needy people. The issue is that the program is set up in a way to minimize responsibility and encourage over-spending.

Edited.

And, I am willing to bet there are a lot more people who should receive disability but are denied. I know 3 people off the top of my head who had legitimate debilitating injuries who applied for disability and 2 were denied. The one that did receive disability took 2 years of fighting with the state. We held numerous benefits for him so he didn't lose his house.

Medicare is much more efficient and cost effective than private insurance. Medicare has a better track record of controlling costs. Beginning in 1997, the growth in Medicare’s cost per beneficiary has been slower than the cost escalation in coverage delivered by private insurers. Between 2002 and 2006, for example, Medicare’s cost per beneficiary rose 5.4 percent, while per capita costs in private insurance rose 7.7 percent, according to MedPAC, an independent agency charged with advising Congress on Medicare issues.

On July 30, 1965, President Lyndon Johnson signed the law creating Medicare.

At the time, about half of the elderly had no health insurance—they were too old and too likely to get sick, so the private market simply wouldn’t insure them. The elderly were the demographic group most likely to live in poverty, and about one in three older Americans were poor. Blacks and other minorities could not receive treatment in whites-only medical facilities, discrimination that was barred by Medicare.

Now the elderly are among the best-insured Americans, with upward of 95 percent covered by Medicare. The rate of poverty among those 65 and older is under 10 percent. The decline in elderly poverty began with the creation of Social Security—but it accelerated, according to Census Bureau data, only after Medicare coverage began.

So you think many more people were denied disability who were entitled to it than people who were given disability but not entitled?
Medicare's "efficiency" has been debunked many times. They pay for it on the back end in the number of fraudulent claims. This has all been explored and explained on this site many many times over. And it is irrelevant to the idea that Medicare's issue is not empowering people to make their own health care expenditure decisions.

Many of our Medicare cost problems are caused by 'privatization'...add on programs like Medicare Advantage and Medicare D where private insurance cartels and big pharma hook their auto-milkers up to the taxpayer's wallet.

Healthcare fraud effects public and private insurance alike

Compliance Monitor, July 8, 2009

A report published by the George Washington University Medical Center, Health Insurance Fraud: An Overview, states that the healthcare fraud problem is not specific to public insurers (i.e., Medicare and Medicaid). According to the report’s authors, Sara Rosenbaum, Nancy Lopez, and Scott Stifler, private insurance providers are just as susceptible to fraud as Medicare and Medicaid.

The report states, “What is absolutely clear from virtually every reliable source on the subject is that healthcare fraud is a systemic problem affecting public and private insurers alike, in the individual market, the employer-sponsored group market, and public programs.”

The report also states that medical providers commit 80% of healthcare fraud, consumers commit 10%, and a combination of insurers and their employees commit the final 10%.

The report’s authors argue the reason Medicare and Medicaid appear to be more susceptible to fraud and abuse is because those programs cover the elderly, women, minorities, the less educated, and the poor, who are also the most vulnerable to fraud.

 

[flacaltenn]

The only reason there's a diff in costs of Medicare/Medicaid against Private Insurance in your wonderfully colorful graphs is that doctors and medical facilities are transferring costs to those covered by private insurance from the poorly reimbursed govt services.

Right now -- those providers are waiting for any excuse to shut off services to those Govt patients. Like the massive cuts in reimbursements contemplated by the Obama Admin to pay for MORE "Universal" insurance and healthcare.

NONE -- of those factoids EVER considers the actual costs of those programs. Like the cost of collecting and processing MEDICARE premiums which is borne LARGELY by the private sector. Or even the costs to PROVIDERS of submitting, arguing and RE-SUBMIT claims for their pitiful allowances. Those studies are not based on per incident of illness, but favor the elderly who have many more billings per incident of illness than the general population..

NO ONE wants to trust this govt --- the one that STOLE Soc Sec surpluses from workers for 30 years and now wants us to PAY AGAIN with DOUBLE INTEREST for their theft. They can't be trusted to run an elementary school bake sale.. Good luck with selling MORE Universal Anything when your most cherished Universal SS program gets turned into just another wealth transfer and redistribution scheme.. That's the leftist mantra isn't it? When they are backed into a corner and they have to admit that it is BANKRUPT TODAY? That just raising the income caps for "the rich" is all that is required to fix it?

No need to respond.. Everyone SHOULD know how corrupt and incapable Wash.DC. is by now. And I don't want time on FDR or the 30's or Reagan or ANY OTHER of the mystical histories that you are consumed by..

 

[Bfgrn]

The only reason there's a diff in costs of Medicare/Medicaid against Private Insurance in your wonderfully colorful graphs is that doctors and medical facilities are transferring costs to those covered by private insurance from the poorly reimbursed govt services.

Right now -- those providers are waiting for any excuse to shut off services to those Govt patients. Like the massive cuts in reimbursements contemplated by the Obama Admin to pay for MORE "Universal" insurance and healthcare.

NONE -- of those factoids EVER considers the actual costs of those programs. Like the cost of collecting and processing MEDICARE premiums which is borne LARGELY by the private sector. Or even the costs to PROVIDERS of submitting, arguing and RE-SUBMIT claims for their pitiful allowances. Those studies are not based on per incident of illness, but favor the elderly who have many more billings per incident of illness than the general population..

NO ONE wants to trust this govt --- the one that STOLE Soc Sec surpluses from workers for 30 years and now wants us to PAY AGAIN with DOUBLE INTEREST for their theft. They can't be trusted to run an elementary school bake sale.. Good luck with selling MORE Universal Anything when your most cherished Universal SS program gets turned into just another wealth transfer and redistribution scheme.. That's the leftist mantra isn't it? When they are backed into a corner and they have to admit that it is BANKRUPT TODAY? That just raising the income caps for "the rich" is all that is required to fix it?

No need to respond.. Everyone SHOULD know how corrupt and incapable Wash.DC. is by now. And I don't want time on FDR or the 30's or Reagan or ANY OTHER of the mystical histories that you are consumed by..

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde

Every other major industrialized country has three distinctions.

1) Health care that cost less than HALF per capita than America.

2) Better outcomes, lower infant mortality rates, and lower adult mortality rates.

3) There is one factor common to the top 15 industrialized countries. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.

American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80. We can thank the remarkable access to health care provided by Medicare.

 

[FA_Q2]

The national debt did not cause this feeble economy.

The obsession about it is a GOP smokescreen for the real problems.

Which is, incidently, the GOP itself.

To the OP -
The debt has reached a scale that can simply not be paid off by the people at large through voluntary efforts. As a matter of fact, you would not even make a dent. That’s why spending is so important.

 

[The Rabbi]

The only reason there's a diff in costs of Medicare/Medicaid against Private Insurance in your wonderfully colorful graphs is that doctors and medical facilities are transferring costs to those covered by private insurance from the poorly reimbursed govt services.

Right now -- those providers are waiting for any excuse to shut off services to those Govt patients. Like the massive cuts in reimbursements contemplated by the Obama Admin to pay for MORE "Universal" insurance and healthcare.

NONE -- of those factoids EVER considers the actual costs of those programs. Like the cost of collecting and processing MEDICARE premiums which is borne LARGELY by the private sector. Or even the costs to PROVIDERS of submitting, arguing and RE-SUBMIT claims for their pitiful allowances. Those studies are not based on per incident of illness, but favor the elderly who have many more billings per incident of illness than the general population..

NO ONE wants to trust this govt --- the one that STOLE Soc Sec surpluses from workers for 30 years and now wants us to PAY AGAIN with DOUBLE INTEREST for their theft. They can't be trusted to run an elementary school bake sale.. Good luck with selling MORE Universal Anything when your most cherished Universal SS program gets turned into just another wealth transfer and redistribution scheme.. That's the leftist mantra isn't it? When they are backed into a corner and they have to admit that it is BANKRUPT TODAY? That just raising the income caps for "the rich" is all that is required to fix it?

No need to respond.. Everyone SHOULD know how corrupt and incapable Wash.DC. is by now. And I don't want time on FDR or the 30's or Reagan or ANY OTHER of the mystical histories that you are consumed by..

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde

Every other major industrialized country has three distinctions.

1) Health care that cost less than HALF per capita than America.

2) Better outcomes, lower infant mortality rates, and lower adult mortality rates.

3) There is one factor common to the top 15 industrialized countries. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.

American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80. We can thank the remarkable access to health care provided by Medicare.

All those countries also share something else: Exploding health care costs that are bankrupting the state. I dont think we really want to emulate that.

 

[Bfgrn]

The only reason there's a diff in costs of Medicare/Medicaid against Private Insurance in your wonderfully colorful graphs is that doctors and medical facilities are transferring costs to those covered by private insurance from the poorly reimbursed govt services.

Right now -- those providers are waiting for any excuse to shut off services to those Govt patients. Like the massive cuts in reimbursements contemplated by the Obama Admin to pay for MORE "Universal" insurance and healthcare.

NONE -- of those factoids EVER considers the actual costs of those programs. Like the cost of collecting and processing MEDICARE premiums which is borne LARGELY by the private sector. Or even the costs to PROVIDERS of submitting, arguing and RE-SUBMIT claims for their pitiful allowances. Those studies are not based on per incident of illness, but favor the elderly who have many more billings per incident of illness than the general population..

NO ONE wants to trust this govt --- the one that STOLE Soc Sec surpluses from workers for 30 years and now wants us to PAY AGAIN with DOUBLE INTEREST for their theft. They can't be trusted to run an elementary school bake sale.. Good luck with selling MORE Universal Anything when your most cherished Universal SS program gets turned into just another wealth transfer and redistribution scheme.. That's the leftist mantra isn't it? When they are backed into a corner and they have to admit that it is BANKRUPT TODAY? That just raising the income caps for "the rich" is all that is required to fix it?

No need to respond.. Everyone SHOULD know how corrupt and incapable Wash.DC. is by now. And I don't want time on FDR or the 30's or Reagan or ANY OTHER of the mystical histories that you are consumed by..

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde

Every other major industrialized country has three distinctions.

1) Health care that cost less than HALF per capita than America.

2) Better outcomes, lower infant mortality rates, and lower adult mortality rates.

3) There is one factor common to the top 15 industrialized countries. They all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care, instead of insurance based health care tied to employment. The bottom four countries – Germany, USA, Portugal and Switzerland – all depend more heavily on profit-based, private health insurance provided primarily through the employer/employee relationship.

American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80. We can thank the remarkable access to health care provided by Medicare.

All those countries also share something else: Exploding health care costs that are bankrupting the state. I dont think we really want to emulate that.

America is the land of exploding health care costs that are bankrupting the state.