Partial Birth Abortion Ban

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by 5stringJeff, Oct 2, 2003.

  1. ajwps
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    ajwps Active Member

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    There is also the fact that with each male ejaculation, somewhere approaching 200,000,000 sperm are released with only one (rarely 2 or more) being the winner in the upstream swim.

    The chances of you being a living being are rather astronomical to begin with and the fact of the point of beginning of real life remains an enigma.

    Arguing about abortion or right to death (anti-abortionists) is truly a personal opinion and has nothing to do with reality.

    When abortion was illegal in this country, a great majority of those women desiring abortions got them in basements, garages or back alleys.

    The percentage of deaths of both mother and child (pre Roe vs. Wade) were significant so that those who appose abortion are actually pro-death of a living mother and a potential life that has not had its first breath.

     
  2. Batamo
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    I am new here, and I haven't taken the time to read the 12 pages that preceed this one on this topic... but has anyone asked the fundamental question:

    Does the federal government have the right to regulate abortion at all?

    What i'm getting at is, is this a federal question or should it be determined on a state by state basis, as it used to be...
     
  3. ajwps
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    ajwps Active Member

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    BatGuano asks. "I am new here, and I haven't taken the time to read the 12 pages that preceed this one on this topic... but has anyone asked the fundamental question: Does the federal government have the right to regulate abortion at all?"

    Abortion is both a moral and social issue and not a function of Uncle Sam. If you kill another person who is a living being and breaths, the federal and local governments have the right to regulate murder but what happens before life enters the baby has nothing whatsoever to do with government intervention. The womand and in some cases the spouse has to make their own moral and ethical decision based on their own beliefs.

    "What i'm getting at is, is this a federal question or should it be determined on a state by state basis, as it used to be..."

    Neither the US Constitution nor Declaration of Independence regulates abortion. The issue has been triedin the courts and the streets by personal opinions and beliefs but the end result is that abortion is now covered and protected by a Supreme Court Decision.

    This issue is less a real issue and more of a tool of apposing political parties. It really doesn't matter what legislation is passed for or against abortion, this practice will not stop because of any social legislation. Jesus Christ new of aborition in his own time and in his New Testament bible, never even mentioned it.
     
  4. eric
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    Really what is wrong with you ? You have some serious issues my friend.
     
  5. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    You hit it right on the head, ajwps. Nowhere in the Consitution is abortion mentioned. The Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade links abortion with a 'right to privacy' based on the Fourth Amendment rights that protect people from unreasonable searches. Batamo's question is very appropriate - should abortion be handled by the federal gov't, or the state govt's? I think that the states should be able to regulate abortion on their own, without interference from the federal gov't.

    And what exactly is the argument about Jesus not saying anything about abortion?
     
  6. ajwps
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    ajwps Active Member

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    Your own opinion about a living human being's right to privacy and her own body cannot be infringed on by State or Federal legislation. That is a social issue and if you decide that you know when life or the soul enters the human being, then you are the only one on earth who know so for certain.

    "And what exactly is the argument about Jesus not saying anything about abortion?"

    If Jesus after his death on the cross instructed St. Paul and others to write his bible, why did he not see fit to include something so important which involved his heavenly realm of life the soul or the taking of the unborn from the womb?

    What sort of god would avoid such a hot button issue as he was aware of abortion practices in his day some 2100 years ago? If Jesus could not prohibit abortion, how is it that his church seems to know more than Jesus himself?




    :confused:
     
  7. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    Again, my point is that the right ot privacy is based on the Courts interpretation of the 4th Amendment. The amendment does not read "Congress shall make no law infringing on the right to privacy, or to abortion on demand." As an interpretation, it is open to re-interpretation. My interpretation of it is that there is no authority in the Constitution for the federal gov't to regulate abortion one way or the other, so it should be delegated to the states, as per the 10th amendment. However, as I am not part of the majority opinion on teh Supreme Court, my opinion doesn't get to be part of the law.

    Jesus didn't talk about a lot of things. Did he talk about abortion? No. Homosexuality? No. Gun control? No. etc. etc. ad nausem. That doesn't mean that he didn't have an opinion about it. For instance, homosexuality was specifically condemned in the OT (Jewish Law), and that was upheld by all members of society. So there was no need to address it. In the case of abortion... first, I'd love to know how you are so sure that he was aware of all the abortions going on in Jerusalem's back alleys; second, I'd like to see how rampant abortion was in that day, and third, I'd like to know how many partial-birth abortions there were in that day (since that was my original point). Fourth, you say that "Jesus could not prohibit abortion." I contend that it was not an issue that He needed to bring up, because people didn't need to be told that killing a baby growing inside its mother's womb was wrong.
     
  8. ajwps
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    go_jeff says

    "Again, my point is that the right ot privacy is based on the Courts interpretation of the 4th Amendment. The amendment does not read "Congress shall make no law infringing on the right to privacy, or to abortion on demand." As an interpretation, it is open to re-interpretation. My interpretation of it is that there is no authority in the Constitution for the federal gov't to regulate abortion one way or the other, so it should be delegated to the states, as per the 10th amendment. However, as I am not part of the majority opinion on teh Supreme Court, my opinion doesn't get to be part of the law."

    ---The Declaration of Indepence supercedes all man made amendments to the Constitution which permits such amendments to begin with:

    2nd paragraph:


    That any government, whether it be Federal, State, Local or Municipal has NO right to remove these three unalienable freedoms inherent in all men and women nor infringe on men or women's safety and happiness. Nor interfer with a woman's safety and her right to her own happiness to continue with a non-souled entity within her. How much clearer does anyone need it to be that no human beings safety or happiness can be legislated away from them. The unborn child, like any alien is not a human until such time as the Creator makes it another citizen of this world. Neither the government, you or I know when that occurs.

    "Jesus didn't talk about a lot of things. Did he talk about abortion? No. Homosexuality? No. Gun control? No. etc. etc. ad nausem. That doesn't mean that he didn't have an opinion about it."

    Jesus did speak on homosexuality as defined in his Father's Old Testament. If Jesus did deem abortion a sin then he would certainly have mentioned it. Jesus did not talk about gun control as there were no guns to control. But Jesus reiterated his Father's commandment to refrain from the murder of living soul bearing human beings. If Jesus had an opinion on abortion, he certainly did keep it to himself otherwise you would see the anti-abortionist (killers) screaming from their voice boxes about it ad-nausem.

    "For instance, homosexuality was specifically condemned in the OT (Jewish Law), and that was upheld by all members of society. So there was no need to address it. In the case of abortion... first, I'd love to know how you are so sure that he was aware of all the abortions going on in Jerusalem's back alleys;..."

    Correct.... The Old Testament spoke against homosexuality but referenced the fact that a human being does not obtain the soul (as we understand it) until it took it's first breath and like with
    Adam throughout the eons of time. In the case of abortion, it was not illegal and was not carried on in back alleys or garages but was done by the healers of the day with herbs and medicaments that induced the aborting of the fetus. Abortion in the time of Jesus was open and there was no prohibition against it as referenced by the only historian of that time. His name was Josephus.

    "Fourth, you say that "Jesus could not prohibit abortion." I contend that it was not an issue that He needed to bring up, because people didn't need to be told that killing a baby growing inside its mother's womb was wrong."

    Firstly I did not say that Jesus 'could not' prohibit abortion, I said he did not prohibit abortion. Secondly how is that you are aware of the morays and understandings of the people of Jesus time in Israel concerning abortions? For the historian Josephus didn't even find it important enough to mention that there was concern about the removal of a non-living baby with no soul growing in it's mother's womb of that time. As a matter of fact, the Old Testament gives significant evidence that a baby that never had taken a breath (i.e., still born or aborted) need not have the usual burial rights but if the baby died after its first breath it deserved the full burial rites and prayers of a living human being.

    The religious Jews (and Jesus was a religious Jew) continue this Torah (Old Testament) edict to this very day.


    All man has to go on is the words that were supposedly written by the Creator and not everyone imposing their personal opinions on others.
     
  9. green lantern
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    i agree. when the brain is formed, in my opinion, it is murder to abort, and the only way i can justify abortion is if the mothers life is in danger, or if it is a case of rape or incest. people need to take responsibility for their actions, and abortion should not be used as an "out" for parents who are not "ready".
    furthermore, it should be law in all states that the father, if known, be notified if a woman goes for an abortion. going back to my statement of not using abortion as an "out", if the woman does not want the baby, after birth, the father should be given the chance to raise his child, or the child should be given up for adoption. men should have an equal say in such a lifechanging decision. we are more than just a donor of dna.
     
  10. ajwps
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    Originally posted by Green Lantern

    "i agree. when the brain is formed, in my opinion, it is murder to abort,"

    Answer me this then, when is the brain fully formed?

    "and the only way i can justify abortion is if the mothers life is in danger, or if it is a case of rape or incest. people need to take responsibility for their actions, and abortion should not be used as an "out" for parents who are not "ready".

    Then that is your personal opinion?

    furthermore, it should be law in all states that the father, if known, be notified if a woman goes for an abortion. going back to my statement of not using abortion as an "out", if the woman does not want the baby,

    You might then want to go to the US Supreme Court to change the current law to conform to your own personal opinion!

    "after birth, the father should be given the chance to raise his child, or the child should be given up for adoption. men should have an equal say in such a lifechanging decision. we are more than just a donor of dna."

    "The father then asked the divorce court judge, "If I put 75 cents in a coke machine and it gives me my coke, who does the coke belong to, me or the machine?"

    I believe that it is the man's child as it is he who has the pains of conception, the woman just gets to carry the forming fetus around for awhile.

    Seriously, abortion has been with mankind for many eons and the morality and ethics of same has always involved individual's personal choices. The legislation of morality is a very slippery slope.
     

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