Partial Birth Abortion Ban

[Keebs]

As for your next post about your thoughts being compelling and articulate, I beg to differ. My tone and my thoughts are perfectly respectful of your opposing view. You, however, have resorted to foul language, finger pointing and emotional diatribes.

I give you guys the curtasy of me reading what you write. You would think one of you, any of you could show me the same respect by reading everything I say.

But thats ok, this is usually how the game is played.

Could have fooled me. You come off as a degenerate whore who chooses abortion to keep her lifestyle.

Who is name calling? Pot, meet kettle. How many more times will I get to say "Pot, meet kettle" while talking to you? LOL

Is it so hard to admit, that in my postings, I have said that I am not pro abortion, I am pro choice. DO you comprehend english?

Excuse me? Creek is a moderator here and I think he has the right to decide when a thread has run it's course, you don't have a say in that either.

Is he now? Well then, he isn't very good at keeping the name callling off of me now is he? Oh wait, this isn't a fair message board. I'll keep that in mind.

First, 3rd trimester abortions, I think are wrong unless the woman's life is in critical jeopardy, which I think should always take priority. The baby is obviously formed.

I agree with that *nods*

I think it is a hot topic and the debate rarely comes out as a coherent argument unfortunately

Well I'm not debating, I'm just name calling and being rude... or something equally as absurd as that

However, emotions aside (and i do not which to tread on toes) the question is, does the mother have a right to her own body with an unborn child? I will not profess to know the answer to that question. But perhaps that is a better place to start an argument.

Wow, thank you for asking a civilized question.

Well, In my belief, I feel that It's my egg, its the dad's sperm, and I'm the one that is going to raise the child. So, with that said. I would love to raise children, to bad I can't have any.

I also feel that it is up to the woman to decide what is right for her. Sometimes what is right for one person, isn't right for everyone.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Creek
WOW.....(smile)...No,I didnt read all the posts,and I should of..I stuck my foot in my mouth on that...

Not sure either if I could find any insults from you to quote you on either...(ya got me)...

I'm honest...and stick up for my friends,that's more than anything a person can put on paper..

Please be nice....and we will be too...This is a hard topic,and I can only express from the heart how I feel about it...and so can all of us......please not lets argue this topic..

I know people too...on both sides of the fence when it comes to abortion....It hurts me,and has hurt others....I just weigh the sorrow of it,and feel it outways everything you said....I disaggree..and can't throw up stats,or declare what's right..and wrong either....Lets just calm...it's been a sad enough day here..as it is......Sorry I called you a guy,and I see great qualities in you as a person just reading your posts...see it in us too...Before we all end up calling eachother bad names...cause that's where this topic is going....and making anger in the air too....

Creek

Brilliant post. Well said.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Wow, thank you for asking a civilized question.

Well, In my belief, I feel that It's my egg, its the dad's sperm, and I'm the one that is going to raise the child. So, with that said. I would love to raise children, to bad I can't have any.

I also feel that it is up to the woman to decide what is right for her. Sometimes what is right for one person, isn't right for everyone. [/B]

That's certainly a valid point. I don't know if I agree with it, but I must respect it! I am quite sorry though, that you cannot have children. If it makes you feel any better, neither can I.

 

[Keebs]

Thank you Creek. It's nice to know that sometimes I can make a little bit of sense to someone, even if they don't agree with me.

Earlier, when I asked you about the abortion thing. I wasn't trying to make you look stupid, I was trying to prove my point. A lot of people say that adoption is the best answer, but is it? How many people are reallying practicing what they preach?

All I want, is to protect the women. As I stated above, I cannot have children. Still, it's very important to me that women be able to protect themselves from life threatening things. I feel that, sometimes children are life threatening too. Like these women that drown their 5 children in a bathtub. I'm sorry, but that is post partum depression. That comes from being pregnant.

If I came in here insulting anyone, well I honestly didn't mean it to be that way. I saw the title, and decided to come in and voice my opinion. I didn't realize that I would be the only Pro choice ( not pro abortion) person in here..

That's certainly a valid point. I don't know if I agree with it, but I must respect it! I am quite sorry though, that you cannot have children. If it makes you feel any better, neither can I.

You don't have to agree with it =) THats why I said it was "my" belief. I very much appreciate you respecting it, though =)

 

[Creek]

Thanks Isaac & Keebs...(happy inside)!!

I'm at a loss for words,and agrree with alot of thoughts posted on this subject....I stick up for my friends,and people I care about...that's who I am...and I'd be the worst debater here...if it was left to just be to debate with...(smile)...

I havent met you two..but it is nice when everyone is welcomed around the campfire.......I believe friends are strangers we've never met before...and it's a blessing when we can all talk,and not aggree..but still have care for one another....

...Keebs..you sure can debate.......I'd fail,and would look like an ass arguing with you...No need for you to tell me that....

Now lets all be friends...deal?...C'mon..I see a smile...(grin)...

 

[Moi]

I defy anyone on earth to find any type of argument that I've used from an immoral and non compassionate stance. I will reiterate that my posts have been respectful, I did not use foul language nor have I used personal attacks or brought in other issues to support my stances.

Post 1:

I think most of us on the board have either debated the constitutionality of the law or stated that there should be an exception if the life of the mother was in jeopardy. Reading only the last few pages it would have been difficult to realize that.

However, in response to your post, I'd like to find proof that every state required two doctors signatures before a 3rd trimester abortion and that the ONLY reasons people have 3rd trimester abortions are because the fetus is dead or "malformed" or the woman's life is in jeopardy. I just don't think that's the case.

Post 2:

Oh, where to begin. First of all if you cannot see any difference between the death of a person who has been convicted of a capital crime dying and the death of a fetus, you need course on responsibility. The person on death row is responsible for his own fate; a fetus didn't do anything to deserve death.

You want to see my compassion: I donated over $40,000 dollars last year to other people, how much did you donate? I built a habitat for humanity house, did you? My company, of which I was a partner (and thus had a say), built over 2,000 units of affordable housing around the country. Did yours? The non-profit organization that I am a governor of (again, with decision making ability) donated over $15,000 to various compassionate causes. I have voted according to my conscience and shown others compassion through charitable works.


Go ahead, lay your cards on the table. I'm not afraid.

Post 3:

Oh my, again I was going to let this pass but couldn't. Guns don't kill people, the people who pull the trigger are the killers. And just because a fetus cannot live outside the womb doesn't mean it's not a person. How idiotic an example...a one day old infant can't survive sitting on the street corner either but no one's denying that self-sufficiency isn't the only measure of life. And, I'm sorry, but again, most of us on this board are not debating that abortion in cases of rape (where the woman has no say in the matter of getting pregnant) nor when the woman's life is in danger should not be exceptions to the abortion ban so please stop acting like the life of the woman is in jeopardy in every case; it's simply not.

Post 4:

Sorry, but you challenged us about compassionate works because you thought we wouldn't be able to give any. You think that just because we're debating the legality and morality of a 3rd trimester abortion in cases where the mother's life is not at stake (WHY OH WHY MUST I KEEP REPEATING THAT!) we're heartless idiots. Well, we're not. We've considered the options and we don't believe that in matters where the mother's life is NOT at stake the woman should just choose to abort a fetus.

As for taking care of your grandmother....well with your argument why didn't you just knock the old lady off if she couldn't take care of herself?

Post 5:

You appear to be the type of person who defines the color yellow by saying it's yellow in color. In other words your logic goes nowhere and your arguments all rely on the fact that you have a misunderstanding of what this thread's about. This thread is about 3rd trimester abortion ban. It's not about abortion prior to that fact and it's not about the death penalty or compassion. It's about the viability of the aborted. And, if your only argument for abortion not being murder is that the fetus cannot live independently, than we've all proven your case to be false. We've also shown you how that argument of independence alone should not be the factor in determining "life".

Post 6:

Actually, it isn't the way you've said things. It's what you've said. Furthermore, for what, exactly, are you requesting proof? My posts have been about how I do not believe my tax dollars should be used to support causes that I don't believe in. Never once in my posts have I said one word about my feelings towards abortion, in general or specifically 3rd trimester.

My posts defencing people who feel a moral tie to the sanctity of life was in direct response to something you said. You said it's about choice and that a fetus is not alive. When asked what you deem alive, you've stated viability outside the womb. Not only is that inapplicable to 3rd trimester abortions but we've proven that viability can also be applied to all sorts of situations: infirmity, injury, etc. So that can't possibly be the argument you're going to stick with, is it?

Post 7:

Oh Janeen. No one I know, whether they believe abortion should be legal or not, at any stage of a pregnancy, has the right to make you feel bad. What you did, no matter how they feel about the issue, was legal at the time you did it. As for guilt and shame, screw them. If your entire life comes down to one moment then we're all in for it. Because not one of us has lived a life so pure as to not have done something we regret or don't want our kids to know about.

It's also possible that your perspective changes throughout your life so that what's acceptable today isn't acceptable tomorrow and vice versa. We can only do the best we can and hope that we learn from our experiences and become better people for it.

No apologies necessary, Chiquita.

Post 8:

The fact that you know 4 people who've had abortions and one person who's had 4 but none feel conflicted about it is the very reason people with an ounce of morality dislike people like you.

If they had any sort of conscience they'd feel conflicted.

And the fact of the matter is that you can say you hate conservatives but hating anyone makes you a hypocrite. If you truly had an ounce of compassion you would understand that not all people have to believe the same things. No one in this post said that they want to murder anyone or hurt anyone.

Only you. So who's the neanderthal? Those that are against killing an innocent or those that believe that sex should not have consequences, sometimes unpleasant ones, yes. But the majority of abortions could be avoided if abstinence and safe sex were practiced by the majority. There have been studies out there showing how many abortions are due to rape, incest or because of medical reasons. They are not the majority althoughthey may be the majority of late term ones.

Andy my posts have been in response to others who claim that nobody has the right to decide what's legal based on their own moral code but that they have the right to tell me that regardless of my moral code, I have to support, through taxes, actions I would not otherwise support.

Post 9:


Okay, where in my words did I say that I was in charge of morals. I was merely pointing out to you that the cavalier attitude with which people have abortions is why those with a moral opposition to abortion dislike them. Since you do not know that I have a moral opposition to abortion, it is not logical that you would believe I was pointing the finger at you.

Yes, I believe it's okay that people disagree. It is you who seem to have a problem recognizing the validity of other's beliefs. It is also okay that you do not like others who feel differently than you, all I said was that it makes you hypocritical. I did not say it was illegal.

My abstinence or safe sex is not the issue. I am not the one claiming that abortion should or shouldn't be legal.

Perhaps you've heard the phrase "taxation without representation". It's kind of an important concept to our country. It's certainly my right, no- my duty, to represent my beliefs to the people who control the laws of this country. Especially, I might add, those who control the purse strings. So, if you do not want your tax dollars spent in a certain way do what most reasonable people in this country do: petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I can offer no response to this non sequitor.

Most of the children of which you speak became part of the welfare system at a later age than a newborn comes up for adoption. Without saying what's right or wrong, the fact is that older children do not get adopted as readily as babies for all sorts of reasons.

Once again, we're not debating the legality or morality of abortions conducted early in a pregnancy when an "oops" occasion arises.

As for your next post about your thoughts being compelling and articulate, I beg to differ. My tone and my thoughts are perfectly respectful of your opposing view. You, however, have resorted to foul language, finger pointing and emotional diatribes.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Keebs

If I came in here insulting anyone, well I honestly didn't mean it to be that way. I saw the title, and decided to come in and voice my opinion. I didn't realize that I would be the only Pro choice ( not pro abortion) person in here..

Ha! You should try being one of the only Canadians! Kidding people, kidding...

That's certainly a valid point. I don't know if I agree with it, but I must respect it! I am quite sorry though, that you cannot have children. If it makes you feel any better, neither can I.

You don't have to agree with it =) THats why I said it was "my" belief. I very much appreciate you respecting it, though =) [/B]

That's what the spirit of real debate is all about!

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Ha! You should try being one of the only Canadians! Kidding people, kidding...

Oy, I feel for you. My sister spent a decade and a half in Canada and jimnyc is merciless towards her.

Teasing, I mean.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Creek
Thanks Isaac & Keebs...(happy inside)!!

I'm at a loss for words,and agrree with alot of thoughts posted on this subject....I stick up for my friends,and people I care about...that's who I am...and I'd be the worst debater here...if it was left to just be to debate with...(smile)...

I havent met you two..but it is nice when everyone is welcomed around the campfire.......I believe friends are strangers we've never met before...and it's a blessing when we can all talk,and not aggree..but still have care for one another....

...Keebs..you sure can debate.......I'd fail,and would look like an ass arguing with you...No need for you to tell me that....

Now lets all be friends...deal?...C'mon..I see a smile...(grin)...

Alright! You get the beer (Canadian of course ) or other liquid beverage of choice!

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Moi
Oy, I feel for you. My sister spent a decade and a half in Canada and jimnyc is merciless towards her.

Teasing, I mean.

Ha! Trying being the only Canadian on an american male rowing crew. I think i spent half my first week trying to assure them that we have open, unfrozen water in Canada! T'was all in good fun though! Lovely chaps.

 

[Creek]

Ok...I'll buy the beer...(smile)...I don't think I could afford to pay the bar tab...so at the park & BBQ..and potluck too...I will buy the first 2 cases......and do the cooking....That's my final offer...

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Creek
Ok...I'll buy the beer...(smile)...I don't think I could afford to pay the bar tab...so at the park & BBQ..and potluck too...I will buy the first 2 cases......and do the cooking....That's my final offer...

Alright deal. And for good measured i'll bring my world famous (ok, home famous), homemade bread. Though after two cases, i think it might be wise to stray away from the touchy topics and discuss oh, say the merits oh... say... beer!

 

[Creek]

I aggree Isaac...I'll be the first to check out that homemade bread..(yummy)..I gota brand new bread maker..and can't wait to do some myself!!.....I've never made it before...and what's so weard is...the last time I had some..was from this lady from New Jersey when I was 11....oooh it was so yummy!!!...

Thanks buddy..and good to see you here at the board!!!

...and yeah..this topic has gotton outa hands...Feelings hurt,and anger.....It's a heart felt issue...and bringing that up,calmed this I hope....Thanks buddy..and dam good posting!!!.....You're always welcomed to my campfire....

 

[Bry]

Uh, welcome to the board, Keebs. I thought you had alot of interesting things to say. Hope you stick around.

It took me so long to get caught up reading this thread, it looks like in the end I missed the debate and arrived just for the hugging and making up. jejeje. This is a crazy place!

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Creek
I aggree Isaac...I'll be the first to check out that homemade bread..(yummy)..I gota brand new bread maker..and can't wait to do some myself!!.....I've never made it before...and what's so weard is...the last time I had some..was from this lady from New Jersey when I was 11....oooh it was so yummy!!!...

Thanks buddy..and good to see you here at the board!!!

...and yeah..this topic has gotton outa hands...Feelings hurt,and anger.....It's a heart felt issue...and bringing that up,calmed this I hope....Thanks buddy..and dam good posting!!!.....You're always welcomed to my campfire....

Ahh the best homemade bread is made with your hands! But i suppose a bread machine is okay Plus it's therapeutic!

As for the topic, i wouldn't worry too much... it's a toughy, and opinions for both sides are to be expected and hopefully welcomed! Though, a wise professor once told me that the strongest debator is one who isn't afraid of expressing his or her opinions, but also one that can immediately step back from the debate and extend the hand of friendship to his or her opponent.

And thanks, i might give that campfire a visit every so often!

 

[jimnyc]

Ok, the air seems to be clearing!

I want to take this time to say I'm sorry to Keebs for my rude and uncalled for comments. You'll notice that my temper gets the best of me sometimes, I am not infallible.

Running a board that covers some of the most controversial topics of today is difficult. I have to not only manage the board, but control my responses as well - as they often get penalized solely based on the fact that I am the admin,

My whole idea around this board was to allow freedom of speech. The best discussions come from opposing views. Unfortunately, this sometimes comes with a cost, and that's that people will abuse that priviledge.

We have the occasional poster that wanders in here with only the intent of dusrupting the board and pissing people off. At first it was funny but it quickly gets tiresome. I thought this was Keebs at first. I still don't agree with her views, but she's entitled to them here as much as anyone else. I think she is passionate about her beliefs, and that desire to express these views passionately sometimes leads to heated exchanges.

My apologies to Keebs and the rest of the board.

Welcome, Keebs. Please stick around, it's not always like this!

 

[Keebs]

The fact that you know 4 people who've had abortions and one person who's had 4 but none feel conflicted about it is the very reason people with an ounce of morality dislike people like you.

You defy anyone to find where you took a stance blah blah.. there ya go.. up above, your words, from your post.

However, in response to your post, I'd like to find proof that every state required two doctors signatures before a 3rd trimester abortion and that the ONLY reasons people have 3rd trimester abortions are because the fetus is dead or "malformed" or the woman's life is in jeopardy. I just don't think that's the case.

Have you bothered looking? Or are you just going to sit there and say that you doubt me?

Read a few posts down from where I posted that stuff. I said you were right, most states don't do it that way, because "partial birth abortions" were banned. I also listed my resource for reasons why people would have a 3rd trimester abortion. Any other questions?

Oh, where to begin. First of all if you cannot see any difference between the death of a person who has been convicted of a capital crime dying and the death of a fetus, you need course on responsibility. The person on death row is responsible for his own fate; a fetus didn't do anything to deserve death.

I can't see the difference? Did you read anything I wrote at all? Or are you just gonna pick and choose words that I type, form them together as sentances and use them against me?

As for your next post about your thoughts being compelling and articulate, I beg to differ. My tone and my thoughts are perfectly respectful of your opposing view. You, however, have resorted to foul language, finger pointing and emotional diatribes.

Ok, how many times are you going to tell me you don't like the way I form sentances? And, refering to my last responce above. Did you read anything I said at all? I'm sorry, but do you have a point to any of this? As for foul language, not intill someone told me that I was a "fuckin idiot" and a "whore". Finger pointing? Show me, where did I point fingers? emotional who? Sorry, I have feelings for other women.

Same question to you.

You call me a bleeding heart liberal, then tell me I have no compasion. Explain please... does not compute


Ha! You should try being one of the only Canadians! Kidding people, kidding

I love Canada!!! Come on! Sarah McLachlan? Mike Myers?? HOCKEY!! =)

Uh, welcome to the board, Keebs. I thought you had alot of interesting things to say. Hope you stick around.

Wow! Thanks. =) I figured most people just dissmissed me by now.

It took me so long to get caught up reading this thread, it looks like in the end I missed the debate and arrived just for the hugging and making up. jejeje. This is a crazy place!

Give me time, I gotta post the answers to all of my fans questions. LOL

I want to take this time to say I'm sorry to Keebs for my rude and uncalled for comments. You'll notice that my temper gets the best of me sometimes, I am not infallible.

Welcome, Keebs. Please stick around, it's not always like this!

It's ok, I've been called worse =)

I still feel like there are 2 sides in America. My beliefs are protecting rights. Be it gun control, or choices.

When we go to bed tonite, we are still going to have to answer for one person, ourselves.

I think the problem with Democrats is that we are lazy. I don't want to be that lazy democrat.

I'm sorry I got you worked all up, too. I want people to question my thoughts and ideas. I just felt like somewhere in all of that, all of my responses were being "skimmed". I think we all have valid points. In no way do I think abortion is right, or even a good thing. But who am I to speak for anyone but myself? Maybe thats all I'm getting at.

 

[Creek]

Good post Jim,and well said..

I'm on your side of all the issues here,and you have my friendship..and when people care about another..that is the bottom line...You didnt need to apologize bud..it just had to be thrown in,and when just a happy smile appears...it goes a long way...

...I think we all learned something here today..and when we can all drop our swords,and walk away from this topic with a truce..a ceasefire..it's better than dragging it out till gets outa hand.......

I disaggreed with her also,and feel we all make more of a difference shining from our hearts....

If she gets to the political side of the board..I think NT will have his work cut out for him......His nemesis..his opposite twin....(smile)....Ohh man...

 

[Keebs]

Creek:

I don't have enough time for this person *rubs hands together* today, but point me in his direction. LOL

This is what I do, I'm starting college next year with a major in political science. Some people find religion, I found politics. =)

I've done WAY to many things to ever be active in the Government: drugs etc.. but, that doesn't mean I can't be political w0ot!

 

[eric]

I would like to apologize myself. This is an issue that I have struggled with for a long time myself. Janeens post brought me to a realization though, it hurt me to think how she felt while we pounded away so ruthlessly.

I won't say that my opinion on the subject has changed, just the way it should be approached and debated. Look I am not your typical republican conservative, and no I am not an old man, unless of course you consider 37 to be old. This is my political affiliation because I happen to have more in common with the repubs vs the dems, but I am a compassionate person. I do believe in effective and necessary social programs, environmental protection, and even some govt regulation.

As I said I have struggled with the abortion issue, because I do believe in choice and I womens right to choose, but then there is the side of me that says that at a certain point in pregnancy it is a child and it just hurts me to think of killing this innocent little baby. I do not have children, but would die for them, then I see people discard them like a can of soda and it pains me greatly.
If we do not, who will stand up for these souls. I do not want a women to put herself at great risk and under these circumstances as I said I have no problem. It just seems that in todays world it is so much easier to take the easy way out of everthing, regardless of the cost to others.

Maybe we can sum it up like this:

Abortion is not a good thing. A women has a right to choose, a baby has a right to live, maybe if we work together and stop arguing we can find a way to educate people to reduce this situation from occuring in the first place, and should it occur, maybe we can come to a compassionate soultion in each case.

I'm sorry if this makes me a bad person in your eyes, and you are entitled to your opinions. The namecalling and personal attacks were not necessary and got out of hand, for this again I apologize.