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The Israelis and Arab states may be able to resolve it in principle, although I doubt it, but it won't be resolved on the ground until the Palestinians have a coherent government that can credibly offer peace to Israel, and that is not likely to happen for a long time at best.The boundaries with neighbouring countries are out of question here, they are established and there is no reason in discussing them. I was talking about the border between Israel and 'Palestinian autonomy'.
The Oslo Accords didn't confine the Palestinian territory only to the Areas A and B. They stipulated the area C to be 'gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction'. Though, indeed, further negotiations about Jerusalem status, settlements and military installations were mentioned as part of these Accords.
But talking about the Oslo Accords is utterly pointless now. They are in the past and impossible to revive and implement. The region needs a new fundamental peace agreement involving Israel and a number of Arab states where the Palestinian issue will be resolved.
The odds are high that this 'coherent government' will be formed by a political wing of Hamas. And offering peace is a two-way road. The proposal should be mutual.The Israelis and Arab states may be able to resolve it in principle, although I doubt it, but it won't be resolved on the ground until the Palestinians have a coherent government that can credibly offer peace to Israel, and that is not likely to happen for a long time at best.
The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
Yeah, funny that you don't call Israel a plea and post maps to show how tiny Israel is in comparison with the Arab world.
Now we know why no one around there will take the people and we shouldn't either.
Guess they better start learning how to swim.
Yeah, funny that you don't call Israel a plea and post maps to show how tiny Israel is in comparison with the Arab world.
Heh.huh?
I was referring to your quite valuable input in the Europe section.
Comparing Ukraine and Russia sizes.huh?
Comparing Ukraine and Russia sizes.
About 25% of the Palestinian population are children. Out of the 75% adults left, 50% are women who don't vote and are not likely polled either....From 2021
The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process.
Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas
JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month's Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites.apnews.com
The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
but said it also resembles previous swings toward Hamas during times of confrontation. Those all dissipated within three to six months as Hamas failed to deliver on promises of change.
So, they like HAMAS when they promise to kill Jews. Lolz
No, they shouldnt be conflated at all
Are you trying to claim you didn't do that?Dude, you are lost. You stepped off a cliff somewhere.
I agree. But not sure what else they can do.About 25% of the Palestinian population are children. Out of the 75% adults left, 50% are women who don't vote and are not likely polled either....
So, put in to perspective, it's 37% of Palestinians are Hamas supporters and would vote for Hamas again....if the polling is accurate.
People don't like seeing women and children killed in Gaza, for the barbaric acts of Hamas in Israel..... with time and deaths of non Hamas killed adding up, Israel tends to lose the world's favor.
And I'm not saying one way or the other if Israel's approach is wrong or right.....just saying most humans will not like to see the killing of women and children in retribution for Hamas killing Israeli women and children etc ....for very long without feeling some empathy for them imo.
with time and deaths of non Hamas killed adding up, Israel tends to lose the world's favor.
(COMMENT)The boundaries with neighbouring countries are out of question here, they are established and there is no reason in discussing them. I was talking about the border between Israel and 'Palestinian autonomy'.
The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG) said:The Israel–Jordan boundary was defined in a peace treaty, following bilateral negotiations between the two sovereign states. All the relevant activities were achieved by collaborative work between the parties. This boundary serves as a successful model for implementing the methodological model of the boundary-making process. A joint team of experts of boundary surveyors (JTE) was fully integrated into the process from its beginning and continues today to be a major contributor to successful ongoing boundary maintenance and boundary administration. (pg 13)
The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG) said:SOURCE: International Boundary Making • Fédération Internationale des Géomètres (FIG) [English: International Federation of Surveyors] • Professional Standards and Practice, Copyright © The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG), December 2013.Hakapaino, Helsinki, Finland, All rights reserved. (Pg 13)
The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG) said:. This model is based on many practical cases, reflecting the decisions of the ICJ, international tribunals, existing theory and international practice, as well as the practice of the authors in various cases, especially with regard to the boundary-making process of the international boundary between Israel and Jordan, which serves as a case study for the research.
The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG) said:SOURCE: International Boundary Making • Fédération Internationale des Géomètres (FIG) [English: International Federation of Surveyors] • Professional Standards and Practice, Copyright © The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG), December 2013.Hakapaino, Helsinki, Finland, All rights reserved. (Pg 16)
The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG) said:Our practical experience, based on the demarcations of the International Boundary between Israel and Egypt, of the Intermediate lines between Israel and Egypt during the years 1973–1979, and of the Israeli–Syrian buffer zone of area of Separation 1974–1975 led us to conclude that additional stages should be added to the four accepted basic ones. We implemented these conclusions in the process of boundary making between Israel and Jordan during the years 1994–2000.
The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG) said:SOURCE: International Boundary Making • Fédération Internationale des Géomètres (FIG) [English: International Federation of Surveyors] • Professional Standards and Practice, Copyright © The International Federation of Surveyors (FIG), December 2013.Hakapaino, Helsinki, Finland, All rights reserved. (Pg 18)
You may deny everything you want, but that doesn't change the situation on the ground. Without resolving the issue with the 'Palestinian autonomy' there can't be any lasting peace in the region.RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: An Opposing View
※→ ESay, et al,
I have found, through specific experience in this forum over the last decade, that there comes a point in which the Pro-Arab Palestinian, Anti-Israel, or the Hostile Arab Palestinian, cannot be reach through any serious discussion.
(COMMENT)
It is my opinion that there is no such thing as a "border between Israel and 'Palestinian autonomy."
There is such a thing as an International Boundary between Israel and each of the Middle Eastern adjacent nations. In the case of the Pro-Arab Palestinian, Anti-Israel, and the associated Hostile Arab Palestinian, who believe that there is such a thing as the "border between Israel and 'Palestinian autonomy," I leave you with these closing International Considerations.
◈ FIG PUBLICATION NO 59 •. International Boundary Making
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✦
✦
Most Respectfully,
R
change the situation on the ground.
It would have to be a credible offer of peace and that means it cannot come from Hamas or any other terrorist organization. Israel already tried that when, at the insistence of the UN, EU and even the US it tried to negotiate with the PLO.The odds are high that this 'coherent government' will be formed by a political wing of Hamas. And offering peace is a two-way road. The proposal should be mutual.
Are you trying to claim you didn't do that?
In the interest of the clarity, I am not advocating for the Palestinians, they are definitely not the 'good guys' in my book. To say nothing about their 'political' organizations. Though, Israeli preparedness for such attacks and their response also raise questions.RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: An Opposing View
※→ ESay, et al,
(COMMENT)
If you go back to the 1970s [shortly after the Six-Day War (June 1967)] - you are looking at a period in which the new threat from the Pro-Arab Palestinian, Anti-Israel, and the associated Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) begin to rise. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian Territory but under Israeli Occupation after the war. While there were but a few check-points. Many - many Arab Palestinians travelled routinely back and forth across the new lines of demarcation, and the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip were no longer under the direct control of the Egyptian Military Governorship. But is was also a time of chaos for all the factions within the Arab Palestinian general population could not agree on their leadership.
Two important points need to be brought to the forefront, that had a grave impact on the "ground truth:"
◈ In the intervening two-decades, while a huge number of outsiders jumped on the band-wagon (along with Pro-Arab Palestinian, Anti-Israel, and the associated HoAP) singing the praises of "self-determination," the consortium of the various Pro-Arab Palestinian, Anti-Israel, and the associated and HoAP factions did virtually nothing to suppress the chaos and put together a meaningful voice for the creation of a "viable" nation, nor did the Arab Palestinians adopt a voice of friendly relations with Israel. In fact, almost the exact opposite occurs. About the only thing the various factions agreed upon was massive reliance on the doll, and violence (Jihad and Armed Struggle). It was the Arab League that took the first step by adopting the PLO as Sole Legitimate Representative of Palestinian People (1974) (negotiating the Oslo Accords), not the Palestinians. Even in 1988, the Arab Palestinians could not manage to put in place a provisional government when Jordan abandoned its holdings west of the Jordan River. If they had, the Middle East would have a much different face.◈ In that twenty year period, the level of violence and terrorism gradually increased in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV), as the world looked on. As the violence ramped-up, Israel attempted (as we see now, unsuccessfully) an increase in non-lethal countermeasures, enforcement and an array of security efforts to stem the tide of armed attacks, kidnapping, hijackings, bombing and the lot. Which brings us to your concern over the situation on the ground."
In the interest of the clarity, Israels hands are not perfectly clean. A consequence of the violence brought on, primarily by the HoAP, comes a response in kind. If you get punched in the face on the playground, I'm not sure what you would do, but I would thump the piss out of the thug. THAAT is the "ground truth." And I believe that what we see Israel doing now.
Most Respectfully,
R
Pffff. Comparing Ukraine with Russia, calling Ukraine a flea in that context and having no chance against a bigger neighbour.Didn't do WHAT????
It has to be a multilateral agreement, involving a number of Arab countries. And yes, both the Palestinians and Israel should be ready for concessions.It would have to be a credible offer of peace and that means it cannot come from Hamas or any other terrorist organization. Israel already tried that when, at the insistence of the UN, EU and even the US it tried to negotiate with the PLO.
