Palestinians are not HAMAS!?

[sparky]

Which seems to be suddenly forgotten, collectively speaking.

10-4 on that Natty....

~S~

 

[Nobody911]

From 2021

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas

JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month's Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites.

apnews.com

The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process.
The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
but said it also resembles previous swings toward Hamas during times of confrontation. Those all dissipated within three to six months as Hamas failed to deliver on promises of change.

So, they like HAMAS when they promise to kill Jews. Lolz
No, they shouldnt be conflated at all

#### What is Hamas?

Hamas is a Palestinian political and military organization that operates primarily in the Gaza Strip. It was founded in 1987 during the First Intifada, a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. Hamas is an acronym for "Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya," which translates to "Islamic Resistance Movement" in English. The group's founding charter calls for the establishment of an Islamic state in historic Palestine and the liberation of all Palestinian territories from Israeli control.

Hamas has a complex nature and is involved in various activities. It operates as a social service provider, running schools, hospitals, and other institutions, which has helped it gain support among Palestinians. At the same time, it has also engaged in armed resistance against Israel, including launching rocket attacks and carrying out suicide bombings. The group has been involved in several conflicts with Israel, including the Gaza War in 2008-2009, 2012, and 2014.

#### Is Hamas considered a terrorist group by the United Nations?

The United Nations does not have a unified stance on whether to classify Hamas as a terrorist group. Different countries and organizations have varying positions on this issue.

Israel, the United States, Canada, the European Union, and Japan classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. On the other hand, Norway, Iran, Russia, Turkey, and some Arab nations do not consider Hamas a terrorist group.

The classification of an organization as a terrorist group can be influenced by political factors and differing perspectives on conflicts and regional dynamics. The designation of Hamas as a terrorist group by some countries is based on its involvement in armed attacks against Israeli civilians and its refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist.

Sources:
1. What Is Hamas?

2. Highlighting Hamas’ Recent Attack on Israel, Third Committee Expresses Dismay at Rise in Conflict Victims, Racism, Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia Worldwide | UN Press

3. https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/S.021.463_140521.pdf

4. General Assembly Adopts Text Reiterating Call for Comprehensive Middle East Peace, after Failing to Pass Resolution Condemning Actions by Hamas in Gaza | UN Press

5. Foreign Terrorist Organizations - United States Department of State

6. U.S. Resolution Against Hamas Is Defeated in the United Nations

7. Hamas - Wikipedia

 

[ESay]

Hamas is a Palestinian political and military organization that operates primarily in the Gaza Strip. It was founded in 1987 during the First Intifada, a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. Hamas is an acronym for "Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya," which translates to "Islamic Resistance Movement" in English. The group's founding charter calls for the establishment of an Islamic state in historic Palestine and the liberation of all Palestinian territories from Israeli control

Exactly, all Palestinian territories. Now, the Arab states, Russia, China and some others propose a two-state solution as a long-term resolution for the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

I wonder whether they are ready to come out as guarantors of Israel's security and independence when at some point in the future Hamas 2 or 3 or whatever will decide to begin another 'war for justice'.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Invisible Palestinians

Listen now (101 mins) | In our continued coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Ralph welcomes James Zogby, co-founder and president of the Arab American Institute and author of "Palestinians: The Invisible Victims.” Then, no-nukes activist Harvey Wasserman joins to warn us about the...

www.ralphnaderradiohour.com

 

[Failzero]

Like saying Republicans are not Nazis ?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: Defining Palestine
※→ Say, et al,

Americans need to ignore many undefined questions like this.

Exactly, all Palestinian territories. Now, the Arab states, Russia, China and some others propose a two-state solution as a long-term resolution for the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

I wonder whether they are ready to come out as guarantors of Israel's security and independence when at some point in the future Hamas 2 or 3 or whatever will decide to begin another 'war for justice'.

(COMMENT)

◈ The First Question you should ask → "All Palestinian Territories," what does this include? ​

​

✦ Palestine is an undefined territory, form more than a thousand years before the Great War, was not (at any time) under the sovereign rule of a Palestinian Leader. In the year 800 AD, the Caliphs of Abbasid, reaching out from Mesopotamia the greater territory of what would include Palestine. No person of Palestine Ruled Palestine from that point on. So, what is the meaning of "Palestine Territories?"​

​

In fact, for most of the last thousand years, what we consider "Palestine" was actually included into the Vilayet of Syria, Ruled by the Ottoman Empire.​

Ideally (all things being equal), there should be no condition set in which one state has supreme power and authority (Israel) in governing other state (the remainder of the territory formerly under the Mandate). And under that theory, peace and territorial security being equal to all. No quasi-state (the remainder of the territory formerly under the Mandate) should be subservient to the legal power and authority of to another (Israel). BUT, in the reality of contemporary times, nothing could be further from the truth.

International Law is a compromise to fairness when the sovereignty of one people (The Jewish State) clash in a conflict with the unattainable sovereignty of another (the people who refer to themselves as the Palestinians).

I'll stop here.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ESay]

RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: Defining Palestine
※→ Say, et al,

Americans need to ignore many undefined questions like this.


(COMMENT)

◈ The First Question you should ask → "All Palestinian Territories," what does this include? ​

​

✦ Palestine is an undefined territory, form more than a thousand years before the Great War, was not (at any time) under the sovereign rule of a Palestinian Leader. In the year 800 AD, the Caliphs of Abbasid, reaching out from Mesopotamia the greater territory of what would include Palestine. No person of Palestine Ruled Palestine from that point on. So, what is the meaning of "Palestine Territories?"​

​

In fact, for most of the last thousand years, what we consider "Palestine" was actually included into the Vilayet of Syria, Ruled by the Ottoman Empire.​

Ideally (all things being equal), there should be no condition set in which one state has supreme power and authority (Israel) in governing other state (the remainder of the territory formerly under the Mandate). And under that theory, peace and territorial security being equal to all. No quasi-state (the remainder of the territory formerly under the Mandate) should be subservient to the legal power and authority of to another (Israel). BUT, in the reality of contemporary times, nothing could be further from the truth.

International Law is a compromise to fairness when the sovereignty of one people (The Jewish State) clash in a conflict with the unattainable sovereignty of another (the people who refer to themselves as the Palestinians).

I'll stop here.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why is Palestine an undefined territory? Its borders were defined by a number of the UN resolutions. The Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem as their capital.

 

[Ringo]

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: Defining Palestine
※→ ESay, et al,

Prior to 1922, Palestine was an informal name used by Western Nations for an expanse that had no specific demarcations.

Why is Palestine an undefined territory? Its borders were defined by a number of the UN resolutions. The Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem as their capital.

(COMMENT)

Palestine was Public Land defined by:

TITLE
This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."
The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

"Public Lands" means all lands in Palestine which are subject to the control of the Government of Palestine by virtue of Treaty, convention, agreement or succession, and all lands which are or shall be acquired for the public service or otherwise.
SOURCE: Palestine Order in Council, 10 August 1922

A military administration under the title of Occupied Enemy Territory Administration was established at the end of 1917 under a Chief Administrator subject to the orders of the Commander-in- Chief (General Allenby). This Administration, with headquarters in Jerusalem, administered southern Palestine until October, 1918, when, with the occupation of the remainder of Palestine and the armistice with the Turks, its authority was extended to the whole country. Direct rule by British officers was established.
SOURCE: OFFICIAL GAZETTE. 16th. September, 1925.

Prior to the establishment of the "Occupied Enemy Territory Administration, the territory called Palestine was a portion of the Vilayet of Syria, a political subdivision under the Sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire.

A General Assembly Resolution is not law and is not binding outside the internal administration of the UN; except in cases when it is converted into an International Covenant, Treaty, or other legal document, or expressed by the Security Council.

The nations of the world are guided by international lines of demarcation (armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement) to which the nations are legally. See: Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation Among States IAW the UN Charter found as ANNEX I, A/RES/25/2625 24 OCT 1970.

𓅂 (POINT OF INTEREST)​

Case Concerning the Location of Boundary Markers in Taba between Egypt and Israel. Decision of 29 September 1988. 27 ILM 1421. Arbitral Tribunal. UN Reports of International Arbitral Awards 20: 1–118. ​

This Arbitral Award arose out of the 1979 Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel and a subsequent special agreement of 1982 for demarcating the location of a number of boundary pillars along the width of the parties’ internationally recognized border. The arbitrators take 1923 as the critical date and the establishment of the Palestine Mandate, but rely extensively on a 1906 British–Ottoman agreement.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[buttercup]

What the "kill them all" crowd seems to be unaware of is that a number of people have reported that the Palestinians don't actually have legit elections. Similar to many other corrupt parts of the world where they claim to have "elections" but it's fixed. I want to look into that more, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. To be clear, that is not to say that NO Palestinians support that evil group, I'm sure some do, but the claim that most do appears to be yet another agenda-driven piece of pro-war propaganda.

This is why some of us have been saying over and over and over: be careful not to immediately believe whatever you're spoon-fed by the MSM who are the mouthpieces for the corrupt powers that want the never-ending unconstitutional wars based on agendas other than the stated ones.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The Anatolian parts of the agreement were assigned by the August 1920 Treaty of Sèvres; however, these ambitions were thwarted by the 1919–23 Turkish War of Independence and the subsequent Treaty of Lausanne.

The agreement is seen by many as a turning point in Western and Arab relations. It reneged upon the UK's promises to Arabs[9] regarding a national Arab homeland in the area of Greater Syria in exchange for supporting the British against the Ottoman Empire. The agreement, along with others, was made public by the Bolsheviks[10] in Moscow on 23 November 1917 and repeated in The Manchester Guardian on 26 November 1917, such that "the British were embarrassed, the Arabs dismayed and the Turks delighted".

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

What the "kill them all" crowd seems to be unaware of is that a number of people have reported that the Palestinians don't actually have legit elections

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

The only people Supporting "kill them all" are chanting in the streets of America and Europe, AND THE MIDDLE EAST.. .

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be (Jew) free

We have all noticed you do not condemn them
"Gas the Jews"

 

[buttercup]

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

The only people Supporting "kill them all" are chanting in the streets of America and Europe, AND THE MIDDLE EAST.. .

Sorry, but there ARE people here who have been saying things like "nuke them all" or "turn that area into a self lighting parking lot."

I can prove that with their quotes.

I condemn ANYONE who wants to kill innocent people. Which obviously includes innocent Jews!

But I'm not having this discussion with you, you have proven yourself to be unreasonable, driven by emotion and blinded by hate. Not to mention the constant false accusations and labeling anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with the MSM view as an "antisemite." That got old days ago. So as long as you're going to continue with that behavior, please don't post to me anymore on this topic. I'm not going to ask you again.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

It's a growing cancer in America. You are being judged today

 

[MisterBeale]

It's a growing cancer in America. You are being judged today

While I do agree that this is despicable and awful, the roots of this lay with the commingling of black American liberation issues & media, and the Palestinian issues. This started happening back, oh, sometime in the eighties I think?

Most left leaning black Americans were probably ignorant of this issue, and their independent media was marginal at best, but, as it has become more and more popular among social progressives, i.e. SJWs and critical theorists on campuses, which then filtered down to the public schools, we get this very one sided narrative, which is. . . well, somewhat, well, very biased?

A young Jewish person born in Israel today, has as much right to live there now, as these idiot young protesting kids, have to live on land that once belonged to Native Americans. . . where the hell else would they go? A lot of them are fed the narrative that, "the land was stolen," just as a lot of times, Americans are. . when in fact, treaties were often times made, and land was bought and bargained for by Jewish settlers/immigrants. Fairly? Who knows, perhaps that is a matter of perspective.

Why you too, should be against a Palestinian state (an average Israeli opinion)​

The only people Supporting "kill them all" are chanting in the streets of America and Europe, AND THE MIDDLE EAST.. .

The fact is? Yes, the Zionist and NeoCon factions have made no secret of using this as a pretext for ethnic cleansing, many of them in the MSM are absolutely giddy about it. Lindsey Graham being one of the more notable ones. Both sides are guilty of doing this.


The real fact is, these days, they only get ONE SIDE of the issue, from their teachers, the schools, or their media echo chambers, the critical theory side, the post modern philosophical side. . THIS side of the equation;

Nobody is safe - The Grayzone live​

No one should be judged unless they read, watch and listen all sides. . IMO.

They are just as guilty of living in an echo chamber as you are. IMO.

 

[MisterBeale]

 

[ESay]

RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: Defining Palestine
※→ ESay, et al,

Prior to 1922, Palestine was an informal name used by Western Nations for an expanse that had no specific demarcations.


(COMMENT)

Palestine was Public Land defined by:




Prior to the establishment of the "Occupied Enemy Territory Administration, the territory called Palestine was a portion of the Vilayet of Syria, a political subdivision under the Sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire.

A General Assembly Resolution is not law and is not binding outside the internal administration of the UN; except in cases when it is converted into an International Covenant, Treaty, or other legal document, or expressed by the Security Council.

The nations of the world are guided by international lines of demarcation (armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement) to which the nations are legally. See: Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation Among States IAW the UN Charter found as ANNEX I, A/RES/25/2625 24 OCT 1970.

𓅂 (POINT OF INTEREST)​

Case Concerning the Location of Boundary Markers in Taba between Egypt and Israel. Decision of 29 September 1988. 27 ILM 1421. Arbitral Tribunal. UN Reports of International Arbitral Awards 20: 1–118. ​

This Arbitral Award arose out of the 1979 Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel and a subsequent special agreement of 1982 for demarcating the location of a number of boundary pillars along the width of the parties’ internationally recognized border. The arbitrators take 1923 as the critical date and the establishment of the Palestine Mandate, but rely extensively on a 1906 British–Ottoman agreement.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, you are right the UN General Assembly resolutions are not binding. And one can claim that there is no legally binding basis for 'Palestinian' boundaries.

But creation of Israeli state went along, hand by hand, with the question about Palestinian state. Their boundaries is virtually one and the same question. Defining Israeli borders you define those of Palestine, and vice versa.

And if theire is no legal basis for Palestinian borders, it is futile to look for the same for Israeli ones. Thus, we should admit that claim 'Palestine from the river to the sea' is also a legitimate claim.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: An Opposing View
※→ ESay, et al,

Yes, you are right the UN General Assembly resolutions are not binding. And one can claim that there is no legally binding basis for 'Palestinian' boundaries.

(COMMENT)

We agree on the issue of GA Resolutions and the non-binding effect (in general). But in the effort of trying to more open on the discussion, the Arab Palestinians do not need a positive resolution by any organisation or nation. As long as the Arab Palestinians can achieve the Article 1 criteria of the Montevideo Convention. Under the theory of "self-determination" all the Arab Palestinians need do is establish a delineated territory over an area in which they have an effective sovereignty.

But creation of Israeli state went along, hand by hand, with the question about Palestinian state. Their boundaries is virtually one and the same question. Defining Israeli borders you define those of Palestine, and vice versa.

(COMMENT)

The boundary is simply a matter of an enclosed territory in which the Israelis have established supreme sovereignty. The boundary being a delineation in which → Israeli is on one side of the line - and - an adjacent nation on the other side. In the case of Israeli sovereignty, the delineations are (in general) (after the Western shore on the Mediterranean Sea:

Eastern Boundary
❖ The Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994 →

◈ Article 3 - International Boundary​

Southern Boundary
❖ The Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979

◈ Article II The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel.​

Northern Boundary
❖ The International Boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...", that "this line was reaffirmed in the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement signed on 23 March 1949" and that "subsequently there were several modifications mutually agreed by Israel and Lebanon". Last Letter Agreement reaffirms the boundary in the Letter dated 9 June 2000 from the President of Lebanon addressed to the Secretary-General •

◈ See A/54/914 S/2000/564 12 June 2000
Paragraph 11 of this report states that "for the practical purpose of confirming the Israeli withdrawal, the United Nations needs to identify a line to be adopted conforming to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon ..."​

North Eastern Boundary
❖ GOLAN HEIGHTS LAW December 14, 1981 •

◈ This legislation, extending Israeli law to the area of the Golan Heights was adopted by the Knesset by a majority of 63 against 21.​

You will notice that the Arab Palestinians have no enclosed sovereign territory; adjacent to other nations of the Middle East.

And if theire is no legal basis for Palestinian borders, it is futile to look for the same for Israeli ones. Thus, we should admit that claim 'Palestine from the river to the sea' is also a legitimate claim.

(COMMENT)

I think we should discount this question as it was answered in the two previous comments. The Arab Palestinians have sovereign control of the Gaza Strip and (by agreement in the Oslo Accord - Area "A."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[The Duke]

Palestinians are HAMAS like people in Dresden were Germans.

 

[ESay]

RE: Palestinians are not HAMAS!?
SUBTOPIC: An Opposing View
※→ ESay, et al,



(COMMENT)

We agree on the issue of GA Resolutions and the non-binding effect (in general). But in the effort of trying to more open on the discussion, the Arab Palestinians do not need a positive resolution by any organisation or nation. As long as the Arab Palestinians can achieve the Article 1 criteria of the Montevideo Convention. Under the theory of "self-determination" all the Arab Palestinians need do is establish a delineated territory over an area in which they have an effective sovereignty.


(COMMENT)

The boundary is simply a matter of an enclosed territory in which the Israelis have established supreme sovereignty. The boundary being a delineation in which → Israeli is on one side of the line - and - an adjacent nation on the other side. In the case of Israeli sovereignty, the delineations are (in general) (after the Western shore on the Mediterranean Sea:

Eastern Boundary
❖ The Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994 →

◈ Article 3 - International Boundary​

Southern Boundary
❖ The Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979

◈ Article II The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel.​

Northern Boundary
❖ The International Boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...", that "this line was reaffirmed in the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement signed on 23 March 1949" and that "subsequently there were several modifications mutually agreed by Israel and Lebanon". Last Letter Agreement reaffirms the boundary in the Letter dated 9 June 2000 from the President of Lebanon addressed to the Secretary-General •

◈ See A/54/914 S/2000/564 12 June 2000​

Paragraph 11 of this report states that "for the practical purpose of confirming the Israeli withdrawal, the United Nations needs to identify a line to be adopted conforming to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon ..."​

North Eastern Boundary
❖ GOLAN HEIGHTS LAW December 14, 1981 •

◈ This legislation, extending Israeli law to the area of the Golan Heights was adopted by the Knesset by a majority of 63 against 21.​

You will notice that the Arab Palestinians have no enclosed sovereign territory; adjacent to other nations of the Middle East.


(COMMENT)

I think we should discount this question as it was answered in the two previous comments. The Arab Palestinians have sovereign control of the Gaza Strip and (by agreement in the Oslo Accord - Area "A."

Most Respectfully,
R

The boundaries with neighbouring countries are out of question here, they are established and there is no reason in discussing them. I was talking about the border between Israel and 'Palestinian autonomy'.

The Oslo Accords didn't confine the Palestinian territory only to the Areas A and B. They stipulated the area C to be 'gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction'. Though, indeed, further negotiations about Jerusalem status, settlements and military installations were mentioned as part of these Accords.

But talking about the Oslo Accords is utterly pointless now. They are in the past and impossible to revive and implement. The region needs a new fundamental peace agreement involving Israel and a number of Arab states where the Palestinian issue will be resolved.