Open conversation

[freeandfun1]

First I never said all Germans were Nazis – nice try. Second I could not care less about whether they were 'official' member. The unofficial followers are still count. Not all Catholics are priests or nuns, there is hierarchy in everything – nice try. Third I never whined about "look at all the people killed in the name of God or Christ." Someone on the board said 'Nazis were not Christians.' I disagree, but now you are assuming I am attacking religion or that I think killing in the name of God is bad thing.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I fundamentally believe that modern Christians wish to distance themselves from people like the Nazis and this makes good sense if the current Christian thinking is that the Nazis were wrong – but maybe this is just lip-service to keep membership up, those 1930’s-1940’s Nazis still have a pretty bad reputation. This is why this is even a discussion. If the Nazis, or if you prefer the people who supported the Nazis and followed them into a war against the rest of the world but were not allowed to be official members, had been Muslims, the current Christian thinking would be something like, “of course they were.”

If the masses (not official members, so I know they do not count) were mislead by ‘false’ religion, but they did not know it was false (like you claim to factually prove now – after the fact), the masses believed (not having abandoned their religious faith – which they felt ok about; due to Point #24 and the lip-service mentioning of Christianity, which you agree occurred) that what they were doing was for God. This makes them Christians in my mind. They were what they believed they were – Christians and followers of Nazism – even of the official party did not like it.

Or maybe we agree – I cannot tell anymore. And yes I am a wise-ass, wise-ass Elephant.

You don't have a clue. Saying you are a Christian does not make you a Christian - period. Guilt by association is what you are trying to imply. So, just because the Nazi's said they accepted Christianity (or better, could "live" with it) that does not make Germany "Christian". You continue to ignore my factual contention that the Christian Church in Germany was APOSTATE. They called themselves "Christian", much as most of Europe does today, yet they did not practice the tenants of Christianity.

You are just trying your damndest to link Christianity to Nazism and it ain't gonna work.

 

[Eightball]

You don't have a clue. Saying you are a Christian does not make you a Christian - period. Guilt by association is what you are trying to imply. So, just because the Nazi's said they accepted Christianity (or better, could "live" with it) that does not make Germany "Christian". You continue to ignore my factual contention that the Christian Church in Germany was APOSTATE. They called themselves "Christian", much as most of Europe does today, yet they did not practice the tenants of Christianity.

You are just trying your damndest to link Christianity to Nazism and it ain't gonna work.

Excellent, and accurate point!

What I said, also in a previous point.

80% of the U.S. population may say they are Christian when polled, but the true definition of Christianity, most probably don't know.

Christ was the perfect example of the definition of a Christian. Now, take a look at those that claim to be Christians, and then refer back to Christ's life in the New Testament. In fact the book of Acts in the New Testament, in great detail revealed how folks that became true Christians lived out their lives. There was no desire for self glorification, there were no military crusades to remove other belief systems. There was a lot of persecution against these new converts to Christianity.

Actually Jesus said that many would come and claim to be Him, but He warned that these imposters should be avoided. He and His apostle Paul gave very clear and concise information to the present and future generation of Christians what would be the precursor signs of His second advent.

There was a wide road and a narrow road. Many would take the wide road believing that this was the way. The wide road implies "ease" and "popularity", yet the narrow road implied, "not easy to traverse", and "not the majority opinion".

The Wide road was man's interpretation and design to be religious, the Narrow road was circumventing life while submitting to faith in Christ.

Hitler and many others will call out, "Lord, Lord" and the Lord will say, I never knew you! "I never knew you" clearly implies, not a "Christ One" or Christian.

 

[elephant]

You don't have a clue. Saying you are a Christian does not make you a Christian - period. Guilt by association is what you are trying to imply. So, just because the Nazi's said they accepted Christianity (or better, could "live" with it) that does not make Germany "Christian". You continue to ignore my factual contention that the Christian Church in Germany was APOSTATE. They called themselves "Christian", much as most of Europe does today, yet they did not practice the tenants of Christianity.

You are just trying your damndest to link Christianity to Nazism and it ain't gonna work.

We agree - we just view the facts differently. If the non-official members were doing what they were doing and believed it was for God - then for them at the time it was for God. They had faith what they were doing was right. Looking back you can say as many times as you would like 'but those are not real Christian ideas" or whatever. What you believe now has NOTHING to do with what they believed at the time.

Like you said about mentioning Christianity in the 25 points - it was just politics. So was "declaring" the church apostate. This could not stop the people from believing in the church's power. And so the followers of Nazism were also Christians and saw no conflict. The Party leaders conceded this fight. They had bigger fish to fry.

For the record - I am now more convinced than ever the only reason you even care is because you do not want Christianity associated with Nazism. Like I said in the previous post, if the Nazis did not have such a bad rep, you would not care about this AT ALL. If we were talking about Muslims you would agree with me.

So I am not ignoring your facts, I simply disagree with your interpretation of history. I also believe you and other sissy Christian apologists are working your hardest to disassociate yourselves from Nazism because I am right. If it were simply not true, there would not be an uncountable number 'fact based' apologies and denials. I find no public speeches by Hitler about how much he hates religion and how Christianity is the scourge of the planet and how first and foremost the all the believers must be killed. I do find revisionist interpretations of speeches he gave about Christianity and Christmas and Jesus. You have obviously read some of these and believe the new church’s propaganda because it makes you feel better. I think that it is sad that you do not even see you have the same type of faith that you accuse the Nazi followers of having as ‘false faith’. Are you crying about Hitler being a bad guy and trying to distance yourself from him makes you like a lib after a political defeat – “well I did not support Clinton – I voted for the blah blah blah – that is not the ‘real’ position of the democratic party.”

Your best argument would be this “They thought they were killing for God, but I know that this is not true, because we, The United States of America, God’s true chosen country and people, kicked their sorry ass from Normandy to Berlin.” I believe that to be true, so that is real faith for me. I do not need to apologize for anything. God sorted out the truth for us.
This still does not mean the Nazis, or there non-official followers were not fully believing that they were doing God’s work. They were just wrong.

To your points directly:

1)Having FAITH you are a good Christian DOES make you a good Christian. You are aware that different Christian churches interpret the Bible differently and arrive at different conclusions as to what constitutes a good Christian.

2) I am not trying to link anything together. The Nazis did it for me in 1920. Whether it was politics or not - The Nazis said they were supporters of Christianity when they wrote it down. This is where I got the idea from. Stop trying to say I am making this part up. Hitler wrote it - not me. It is not a reinterpretation of a speech as a tool of propaganda or whatever BS history site you want to post a link to. Adolf Hitler -you have heard of him? - said he was a supporter of Christianity.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Just because thugs may have claimed christianity doesn't mean they are actually good christians, or that christianity REALLY supports any of their doctrinne. No interpretation of the bible supports what they did. That should matter to you, but you, in your satanic zeal, take the word of the nazi at face value. Hitler was really more of a new ager.

 

[elephant]

Just because thugs may have claimed christianity doesn't mean they are actually good christians, or that christianity REALLY supports any of their doctrinne. No interpretation of the bible supports what they did. That should matter to you, but you, in your satanic zeal, take the word of the nazi at face value. Hitler was really more of a new ager.

First I have no Satanic zeal, but that does make for entertaining posts to read.

I have never said once that any of this has to do with 'good' Christianity. I have been repeating myself over and over here.

The followers, whether right or wrong in hindsight, believed what they were doing was right. They attributed this faith in being right to the political lip-service that Hitler gave to Christianity and the "25 points" that Hitler wrote.

If I send money to a TV evangelist and really have faith that what I am doing is the right thing, but TV evangelist has been lying just to get my money, this makes me gullable, but it does not make my faith less valid. I still believe in Christ and did what I thought was right to show my faith.

Hitler lead the followers the wrong way, but they did not know this at the time. He used Christianity to get more support and followers. Using religion takes two parties though - the followers still had to follow and have faith.

I will not take that faith away from them after the fact because you disagree with the results.

So I am not taking it at face value. Just because I think sending money to MC Hammer is not 'real' Christianity does not make it less true for the people who do it - they believe what they are doing is right. Because MC Hammer might be in it for the wrong reasons cannot detract from the followers faith - that part of the faith is the followers alone. Or at least I will not say they are less of a believer.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The mistake you're making is believing that if someone believes something is true, it is true. That post modernist crap thinking doesn't fly around here.

 

[elephant]

The mistake you're making is believing that if someone believes something is true, it is true. That post modernist crap thinking doesn't fly around here.

Really?

Which version of Christianity is the right one?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Really?

Which version of Christianity is the right one?

Well, I know it ain't the one that espouses genocide. You're attempting to paint anyone with strong beliefs in anything as inherently equal to a nazi without passing judgement on the beliefs themselves. This is what moral relativists do.

 

[Avatar4321]

Really?

Which version of Christianity is the right one?

Why dont you ask God. Im sure He would be more than willing to tell you if you really want to know.

 

[elephant]

Well, I know it ain't the one that espouses genocide. You're attempting to paint anyone with strong beliefs in anything as inherently equal to a nazi without passing judgement on the beliefs themselves. This is what moral relativists do.

I have never said any such thing. I have not even implied that all people with faith are Nazis. Are you really paranoid? Do you think the Nazis were Christians and now you are embarrassed or feel some overwhelming need to change the past? Stop apologizing for something you did not do - you sound like a lib.

I have passed no judgment whatsoever. I, unlike you, do not dismiss another Christian’s faith because I disagree with it. That is God’s job you pompous ass.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I have never said any such thing. I have not even implied that all people with faith are Nazis. Are you really paranoid? Do you think the Nazis were Christians and now you are embarrassed or feel some overwhelming need to change the past? Stop apologizing for something you did not do - you sound like a lib.

I have passed no judgment whatsoever. I, unlike you, do not dismiss another Christian’s faith because I disagree with it. That is God’s job you pompous ass.

Your part of the new age camp, who villifies anyone with faith in anything but moral relativism. I can tell.

"Well nazis thought THEY were christians too, just like you, you're the same" essentially. You refuse to actually evaluate christian doctrine and determine who REAALLY is following christian doctrine. You paint with a big' ol broad brush. Get over yourself.

 

[elephant]

Your part of the new age camp, who villifies anyone with faith in anything but moral relativism. I can tell.

"Well nazis thought THEY were christians too, just like you, you're the same" essentially. You refuse to actually evaluate christian doctrine and determine who REAALLY is following christian doctrine. You paint with a big' ol broad brush. Get over yourself.

Why don't you address what I am saying. You cannot even admit to being a Christian you are so afraid the Nazis were Christians too.

How many times do I have to say this. THE NAZIS WERE NOT GOOD CHRISTIANS, but they did have faith and they supported Christianity. No broad brush - just the Nazis were really evil and Christian. It seems all the other Christians like you and me, found the Nazi faith was somehow twisted and ended the experiment. All the wishing in the world will not make the association with Christianity go away. Get over it.

 

[Avatar4321]

How many times do I have to say this. THE NAZIS WERE NOT GOOD CHRISTIANS, but they did have faith and they supported Christianity. No broad brush - just the Nazis were really evil and Christian. It seems all the other Christians like you and me, found the Nazi faith was somehow twisted and ended the experiment. All the wishing in the world will not make the association with Christianity go away. Get over it.

We dont have to wish. The Nazis were socialists. Socialists dont have a religious belief. The Leaders of the Nazis deffinately follows socialist views on God. I dont know why you have to believe that Nazis were Christians. Its just not true.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Why don't you address what I am saying. You cannot even admit to being a Christian you are so afraid the Nazis were Christians too.

How many times do I have to say this. THE NAZIS WERE NOT GOOD CHRISTIANS, but they did have faith and they supported Christianity. No broad brush - just the Nazis were really evil and Christian. It seems all the other Christians like you and me, found the Nazi faith was somehow twisted and ended the experiment. All the wishing in the world will not make the association with Christianity go away. Get over it.

Twisted christianity != christianity. deal.

 

[elephant]

Twisted christianity != christianity. deal.

So you are not a Christian. Then why do you even care about the Nazis?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

So you are not a Christian. Then why do you even care about the Nazis?

Your conclusions concerning my faith are not relevant.

I just hate to see you making a fool of yourself. It is out of compassion for you that I correct you publicly.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

How many times do I have to say this. THE NAZIS WERE NOT GOOD CHRISTIANS, but they did have faith and they supported Christianity. No broad brush - just the Nazis were really evil and Christian. It seems all the other Christians like you and me, found the Nazi faith was somehow twisted and ended the experiment. All the wishing in the world will not make the association with Christianity go away. Get over it.

Very much the same parallel is happening in our society today. "THE LIBERALS ARE NOT GOOD CHRISTIANS, but they do have faith and they support Christianity." (especially when it is good for their political gain, such as smearing Christianity with Hitler)

Are you one of these Liberal "Christians" of today? You certainly give that impression here.

 

[elephant]

Your conclusions concerning my faith are not relevant.

I just hate to see you making a fool of yourself. It is out of compassion for you that I correct you publicly.

You have not 'corrected' anything. Your pathetic desire to rewrite history is not a correction to it. It is apparent you have nothing substantial to say and you are unable to back up any of your arguments with anything more than an overwhelming sense of guilt.

I am simply giving credit where credit is due. The Nazis used Christianity to help people feel better about what they were doing. It being morally wrong does not make it untrue.

 

[Said1]

Are both of you saying Nazis were twisted Christians? Am I missing something?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You have not 'corrected' anything. Your pathetic desire to rewrite history is not a correction to it. It is apparent you have nothing substantial to say and you are unable to back up any of your arguments with anything more than an overwhelming sense of guilt.

I am simply giving credit where credit is due. The Nazis used Christianity to help people feel better about what they were doing. It being morally wrong does not make it untrue.

That obviously wasn't christianity.