Only Liberals Are Pro-Liberty

[Dragon]

Socialism doesn't require democracy.

I think it does in order to work, actually, just as democracy requires socialism. That's why socialism failed in the USSR. However, it's true one does not have to be an advocate of democracy to be a socialist.

But one DOES have to be an advocate of democracy to be a liberal.

And no, most liberals aren't socialists.

 

[daveman]

LOL I knew this one would bring 'em out of the woodwork.

Toro and Shackles reveal themselves as libertarians, confusing anti-government with pro-liberty. That was pretty predictable w/r/t Shackles but Toro's posting history is more confusing.

More government does not equal more liberty

Some people are incapable of understanding that.

 

[Dragon]

How is the private sector stomping you in the face with a boot?
Specifics are better than generalizations.
Let's see your list.

Me, personally? What give you the ridiculous notion that this has anything to do with me?

 

[daveman]

Why does it matter who wrote it?

The Senate voted for it 98-1...Were there any opposition, there would've been more than the 1 vote against (Feingold).

Even in the face of absolute facts, you still don't get it.

No one did anything to stop that horrible shit Act.

Not the republicans, not the democrats.

Not the left or right.

So that's why you blame Republicans for writing it and signing it into law?

 

[Si modo]

Socialism doesn't require democracy.

I think it does in order to work, actually, just as democracy requires socialism. That's why socialism failed in the USSR. However, it's true one does not have to be an advocate of democracy to be a socialist.

But one DOES have to be an advocate of democracy to be a liberal.

And no, most liberals aren't socialists.

You do realize that 1984 was a caricature of statism, not a goal?

Sort of like Archie Bunker.

 

[Dragon]

Why does it matter who wrote it?

The Senate voted for it 98-1...Were there any opposition, there would've been more than the 1 vote against (Feingold).

Even in the face of absolute facts, you still don't get it.

No one did anything to stop that horrible shit Act.

Not the republicans, not the democrats.

Not the left or right.

So that's why you blame Republicans for writing it and signing it into law?

I think it's important to emphasize once more that the equations Republican=conservative and Democratic=liberal are false equations, particularly the second one. The USA Patriot Act was a conservative law. That it was supported by many Democrats is certainly true, but proves only that many Democrats are not liberals.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How is the private sector stomping you in the face with a boot?
Specifics are better than generalizations.
Let's see your list.

Me, personally? What give you the ridiculous notion that this has anything to do with me?

You claimed the private sector stomps people in the face. Were you wrong?

 

[Dragon]

You do realize that 1984 was a caricature of statism, not a goal?

Sort of like Archie Bunker.

I disagree that it was a caricature. It was an identification by Orwell of trends he saw in the socialist thinking of his own time, taken to their logical conclusions. But the motivations of the Party in that novel are not limited to non-democratic socialists; they are the motivations of sadists and control freaks everywhere, and that includes conservatives.

 

[Dragon]

You claimed the private sector stomps people in the face. Were you wrong?

No, I was simply unwilling to play the game that turns this claim into one of "I, personally, am a victim."

Try something else.

 

[daveman]

We can at least say that Liberals have been the greater advocates of individual liberty where conservatives, for the most part, have been advocates of greater government authority with regard to restricting or otherwise preempting Constitutional rights.

We can say that, but we'd be lying.

And intelligent people would laugh if we said it.

Jonesy is only regurgitating his programming.

 

[daveman]

Even in the face of absolute facts, you still don't get it.

No one did anything to stop that horrible shit Act.

Not the republicans, not the democrats.

Not the left or right.

So that's why you blame Republicans for writing it and signing it into law?

I think it's important to emphasize once more that the equations Republican=conservative and Democratic=liberal are false equations, particularly the second one. The USA Patriot Act was a conservative law. That it was supported by many Democrats is certainly true, but proves only that many Democrats are not liberals.

No, they're progressives. Progressivism has nothing to do with liberty.

 

[daveman]

You do realize that 1984 was a caricature of statism, not a goal?

Sort of like Archie Bunker.

I disagree that it was a caricature. It was an identification by Orwell of trends he saw in the socialist thinking of his own time, taken to their logical conclusions. But the motivations of the Party in that novel are not limited to non-democratic socialists; they are the motivations of sadists and control freaks everywhere, and that includes conservatives.

The more sadistic, oppressive, and controlling governments throughout history have been progressive.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You claimed the private sector stomps people in the face. Were you wrong?

No, I was simply unwilling to play the game that turns this claim into one of "I, personally, am a victim."

Try something else.

Great, how does the private sector stomp other people in the face?

 

[Dragon]

No, they're [Democrats] progressives.

Same thing, and no, many of them aren't.

 

[The T]

Even in the face of absolute facts, you still don't get it.

No one did anything to stop that horrible shit Act.

Not the republicans, not the democrats.

Not the left or right.

So that's why you blame Republicans for writing it and signing it into law?

I think it's important to emphasize once more that the equations Republican=conservative and Democratic=liberal are false equations, particularly the second one. The USA Patriot Act was a conservative law. That it was supported by many Democrats is certainly true, but proves only that many Democrats are not liberals.

True. Democrats have evolved into Marxist/Statists...have allowed themselves to be co-opted by the radical leftwing of the party.

Too bad old school Democrats as Joe Liberman are retiring...

 

[Dragon]

Great, how does the private sector stomp other people in the face?

Underpaying workers, unfair hiring/firing practices, environmental pollution, suppression of competition, outsourcing, union suppression, suppression of free speech in and out of the workplace, exploitation of consumers, unsafe products, and undercutting of democracy. For starters.

The biggest single way, however, is something that has no direct legal remedy, and that's the dominant/submissive relationship between boss and hireling. (I'm self-employed, so this does not apply to me, but it applies to most people.) An employer does a much better, more efficient job of keeping people in line and under the thumb of authority than government can ever do.

 

[The T]

Even in the face of absolute facts, you still don't get it.

No one did anything to stop that horrible shit Act.

Not the republicans, not the democrats.

Not the left or right.

So that's why you blame Republicans for writing it and signing it into law?

I think it's important to emphasize once more that the equations Republican=conservative and Democratic=liberal are false equations, particularly the second one. The USA Patriot Act was a conservative law. That it was supported by many Democrats is certainly true, but proves only that many Democrats are not liberals.

Some HISTORY of the USA Partriot Act. Why does it continue to be extended? ( And look who is for extensions)...

 

[Si modo]

You do realize that 1984 was a caricature of statism, not a goal?

Sort of like Archie Bunker.

I disagree that it was a caricature. It was an identification by Orwell of trends he saw in the socialist thinking of his own time, taken to their logical conclusions. But the motivations of the Party in that novel are not limited to non-democratic socialists; they are the motivations of sadists and control freaks everywhere, and that includes conservatives.

So, Orwellian society is a goal for you.

As if I didn't know already.

 

[Dragon]

True. Democrats have evolved into Marxist/Statists...have allowed themselves to be co-opted by the radical leftwing of the party.

Too bad old school Democrats as Joe Liberman are retiring...

LOL no. I don't think you'd know a genuine Marxist if he spouted Commie jargon in your face.

The Democratic Party has hardly been co-opted by the "radical left wing" of the Party. Rather, like the Republicans, many of them have been co-opted by corporate money, and have become conservatives.

 

[Dragon]

So, Orwellian society is a goal for you.

As if I didn't know already.

You know, there's no rule of this board that what you say has to follow logically from anything someone else said or even have anything to do with it, but if you want to actually participate in the discussion it's likely a good idea.