Once again, Venezuela "Feeling the Bern" of socialism

[Andylusion]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I have never met someone from a Nordic country, that thought they were socialist. And I have met several.

I met one guy who worked as a software engineer. He quit his job, opened his own business, and now he's the wealthy CEO. Capitalist, working under Capitalism.

Once again, I quote from a neutral source.
Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway,Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5]

Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade....

The Nordic welfare model refers to the welfare policies of the Nordic countries, which also tie into their labor market policies. The Nordic model of welfare is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.[32]

While there are differences among different Nordic countries, they all share a broad commitment to social cohesion, a universal nature of welfare provision in order to safeguard individualism by providing protection for vulnerable individuals and groups in society, and maximizing public participation in social decision-making. It is characterized by flexibility and openness to innovation in the provision of welfare. The Nordic welfare systems are mainly funded through taxation.[33]

Despite the common values, the Nordic countries take different approaches to the practical administration of the welfare state. Denmark features a high degree of private sector provision of public services and welfare, alongside an assimilation immigration policy. Iceland's welfare model is based on a "welfare-to-work" (see: workfare) model, while part of Finland's welfare state includes the voluntary sector playing a significant role in providing care for the elderly. Norway relies most extensively on public provision of welfare.


What is it in regard to a universal welfare state, government brokered labor agreements and income redistribution that does not sound like socialism to you?

Folks have to get off this thing where they think socialism is a bad word or something.

 

[Andylusion]

I have never met someone from a Nordic country, that thought they were socialist. And I have met several.

I met one guy who worked as a software engineer. He quit his job, opened his own business, and now he's the wealthy CEO. Capitalist, working under Capitalism.

Once again, I quote from a neutral source.
Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway,Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5]

Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade....

The Nordic welfare model refers to the welfare policies of the Nordic countries, which also tie into their labor market policies. The Nordic model of welfare is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.[32]

While there are differences among different Nordic countries, they all share a broad commitment to social cohesion, a universal nature of welfare provision in order to safeguard individualism by providing protection for vulnerable individuals and groups in society, and maximizing public participation in social decision-making. It is characterized by flexibility and openness to innovation in the provision of welfare. The Nordic welfare systems are mainly funded through taxation.[33]

Despite the common values, the Nordic countries take different approaches to the practical administration of the welfare state. Denmark features a high degree of private sector provision of public services and welfare, alongside an assimilation immigration policy. Iceland's welfare model is based on a "welfare-to-work" (see: workfare) model, while part of Finland's welfare state includes the voluntary sector playing a significant role in providing care for the elderly. Norway relies most extensively on public provision of welfare.


What is it in regard to a universal welfare state, government brokered labor agreements and income redistribution that does not sound like socialism to you?

Folks have to get off this thing where they think socialism is a bad word or something.

And yet, the Prime Minister, says you and your wiki article are full of crap.

Some of the things even in that wiki article, we support, and you people on the left, oppose.

"Finland's welfare state includes the voluntary sector playing a significant"

I support that. I support charities right now. Let's ditch some of these government programs, and have private voluntary charities take up more of the roll.

Is that what Bernie supports? I've never hear him say that.

welfare model is based on a "welfare-to-work"

Again, I just I support that. Let's cap all these welfare programs, and force people to work.

Is that what Bernie supports? He's never said that.

an assimilation immigration policy

I have said numerous times, I that support assimilation, and an end to multi-culturalism.

Is that what Bernie supports? I've never heard him say that.

Again, you keep posting these lies over and over... but it doesn't make them magically true.

 

[JimBowie1958]

And yet, the Prime Minister, says you and your wiki article are full of crap.

Show me where he says I am full of crap. You are lying.

Some of the things even in that wiki article, we support, and you people on the left, oppose.

'You people on the left? lolol

"Finland's welfare state includes the voluntary sector playing a significant"

I support that. I support charities right now. Let's ditch some of these government programs, and have private voluntary charities take up more of the roll.

Is that what Bernie supports? I've never hear him say that.

Lol, then you are at variance with the NeverTrump right. And that still does not change the plain position of the government model being one of Nanny State cradle to grave socialism.

welfare model is based on a "welfare-to-work"

Again, I just I support that. Let's cap all these welfare programs, and force people to work.

Is that what Bernie supports? He's never said that.

I dont know about Sanders, but I support work for welfare programs. The people who take need to give something back, about 20 hours a week or so, IMO.

an assimilation immigration policy

I have said numerous times, I that support assimilation, and an end to multi-culturalism.

Is that what Bernie supports? I've never heard him say that.

Again, you keep posting these lies over and over... but it doesn't make them magically true.

Nothing I have posted is a lie except in your mind.

You make a string of unsupported assertions, one after the other, and then think you have proven me a liar?

Dont be so full of yourself, dude.

 

[alpine]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Last night we showed what Caracas, looks like this week:

As we wrote then these are simply hungry Venezuelans protesting that their children are dying from lack of food and medicine and that they do not have enough water or electricity. As AgainstCronyCapitalism added, this is a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia, and the government has stolen all the money and now they bottleneck peaceful protesters and threaten them with bombs (or haul them to prison and torture them). As pure desperation has set in, crime has becomes inevitable. A man accused of mugging people in the streets of Caracas was surrounded by a mob of onlookers, beaten and set on fire, who published a pixeled-out but still graphic video of the man burning as mob justice is now the supreme arbiter of who lives and who dies:

"Roberto Fuentes Bernal, 42, was reportedly caught trying to mug passersby in the Venezuelan capital, and before police arrived at the scene, the crowd took the law into their own hands." The video can be seen here. Now, in the latest shocking development, Venezuela saw a new wave of looting this week that resulted in at least two deaths, countless wounded, and millions of dollars in losses and damages. According to Panampost, on Wednesday morning, a crowd sacked the Maracay Wholesale Market in the central region of Venezuela. According to the testimonies of merchants, the endless food lines that Venezuelans have been enduring to do groceries could not be organized that day.

As time went by, desperate Venezuelans grew anxious over not being able to buy food. Then they started jumping over the gates and stormed the supermarket. "They took milk, pasta, flour, oil, and milk powder. There were 5,000 people" one witness told Venezuela outlet El Estímulo. People from across the entire state came to the supermarket because there were rumors that some products not found anywhere else would be sold there. As a result of the massive crowd, the authorities were unable to preserve the peace. "There were 250 people for each National Guard officer… lots of people and few soldiers. At least one officer was beat up because he tried to stop the crowd,” another source told El Estímulo. Other food dispensaries run by the government were also looted by the people. Far from the promised socialist paradise, as the massive group of people moved, an entrance gate collapsed under the weight of the crowd, leaving several wounded.

MORE

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

 

[Norman]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

 

[alpine]

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

 

[Norman]

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

No it's not, the average is 48.2%, Greece is 55% and currently the 4th largest government in Europe. In 2013 it was the largest government in the whole of Europe (62%) (guess how that worked out?) The best performing nations like Germany (44%) or Switzerland (33%) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

 

[alpine]

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

No it's not, the average is 48.2 %, Greece is 55 %. The best performing nations like Germany (44 %) or Switzerland (33 %) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions about a country that you have never been to...
Its not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

 

[Norman]

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

No it's not, the average is 48.2 %, Greece is 55 %. The best performing nations like Germany (44 %) or Switzerland (33 %) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions... Not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

During 2000s... during which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

Here is the actual chart, so you won't need to rely on crappy left wing agendas (yes, google search is hard for those ideologically motivated): .http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do

 

[alpine]

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...



So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!


The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

No it's not, the average is 48.2 %, Greece is 55 %. The best performing nations like Germany (44 %) or Switzerland (33 %) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions... Not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

During 2000s... which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

 

[Norman]

No, it was government debt. Which left wing people want always more of in their quest to farm the votes with more free things.

Greece government is not small, spending about 55% relative to the size of the economy...

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

No it's not, the average is 48.2 %, Greece is 55 %. The best performing nations like Germany (44 %) or Switzerland (33 %) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions... Not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

During 2000s... which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

 

[alpine]

Compared to other EU countries, yes, it is small..........

No it's not, the average is 48.2 %, Greece is 55 %. The best performing nations like Germany (44 %) or Switzerland (33 %) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions... Not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

During 2000s... which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

"as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy"

If only it did


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years.

 

[Norman]

No it's not, the average is 48.2 %, Greece is 55 %. The best performing nations like Germany (44 %) or Switzerland (33 %) have much smaller government.

Is google search too much for you?

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions... Not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

During 2000s... which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

"as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy"

If only it did


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years.

I just posted the actual chart with the actual numbers.

It's 4th largest government in Europe currently. In 2013 it was the largest.

Is chart too difficult for you to read? That was over a decade ago!

The Greece state is way too big for them to ever recover...

 

[alpine]

Thats ok, you are just another one in that general public with misconceptions... Not your fault...


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years. The sharp decline of Greek GDP after 2008 of course increased the rate. But today, the figure is 49.3 percent of GDP, or about the eurozone average. Some salaries, especially in public corporations, were, indeed, scandalous. Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays. Healthcare is a major burden. But numbers show that the problem is not that the state is “big.” It is that nepotism and corruption rule, creating distributional inequities and economic inefficiency.

During 2000s... which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

"as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy"

If only it did


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years.

I just posted the actual chart with the actual numbers.

It's 4th largest government in Europe currently. In 2013 it was the largest.

Is chart too difficult for you to read? That was over a decade ago!

The Greece state is way too big for them to ever recover...

Nobody cares what Greece was in 2013, because they were already crashed at that point.

Your logic is like seeing a man die while drinking water and concluding that water killed the man
No, the man was cancer, and cancer sucked the life out of him bit by bit, year after year

You need something called "historical" data to be able to do analysis of this type of situations
Since too hard for you to click on the link in my post, i will post the chart here;

As seen here, Greece was around the average for the years she was going into a default

So you are repeating a pretty common misconception, but thats fine...

 

[Toro]

Venezuela's problems aren't because of oil. High oil prices masked the underlying problems in the economy.

Chavez was setting prices, particularly of food, at levels that made it uneconomic to produce. He then blamed greedy capitalists. He also reset contracts that drove investment in mining and energy out of the country. He fired many, if not most, of the qualified technical people at pdvsa.

The only reason why Venezuela didn't collapse earlier was because of high oil prices.

It was stunning economic ignorance on a massive scale.

 

[Dovahkiin]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

Venezuela's problems stem from the socialist policies and the messed up currency exchange they have. Have you ever looked into it?
How to fix Venezuela
The article touches on this. Floating will help venezuela acquire more goods for the citizens, assuming they become more friendly to businesses and remove price caps/etc...

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

I agree.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

I agree, but why did you say the peso? It's the bolivar.

Now, consider Venezuela's currency exchange system, which governs how much Venezuela's currency — the bolívar — trades for against other currencies — most importantly the U.S. dollar. A functional currency exchange system is important because it allows all the various parts of a country's economy to exist in dynamic equilibrium with the flow of goods and services coming in from outside the country; it allows the domestic economy to adapt and rebalance as flows of exports and imports change.

America has a floating exchange rate. The dollar isn't pegged to anything, like another currency or the value of gold. So how much of another currency you get in exchange for a dollar "floats" up and down all the time, reacting to countless forces in the market.

Venezuela's system, by contrast, is a dysfunctional mess. The country's official exchange rate is pegged to the dollar — specifically, it's 10 bolívares for $1. So no matter what happens, whenever the government does business with anyone, it gets or gives 10 bolívares for every $1.

But there's also an enormous black market currency exchange. This is where the hyperinflation is coming from: The number of bolívares you can get for $1 on the black market has rocketed up to well over 1,000, and may go considerably higher.

 

[Andylusion]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...

So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!

The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

What you are saying is logically impossible. If the Greece Government had zero debt.... they would not have crashed. It's like saying you have have your house foreclosed on... when you don't have a mortgage.

If you don't have a mortgage, it is fundamentally impossible to have your home foreclosed on.

Similarly, the crash can only have occurred because government spent more money than it collected in taxes. And that is a function of socialism. Are you suggesting that government is a Capitalist venture? I think not.

Moreover, your article cites a dozen different things... but they all support our original claim.

For example, they list off that the Agricultural Bank of Greece, gave out $5.5 Billion in bad loans to people connected with government.

So government, gave money from government banks, to government supporters. And that's not a socialism problem? What do you call that? How do you label a system created, run, and broken by government, a problem with Capitalism?

I love how the idiot in your article labels this "Bad private loans".... FROM GOVERNMENT BANKS YOU IDIOT!

Or they mention that 30% of the economy is untaxed, and hidden underground. Well no crap, the taxes are way too high. No one is going to pay that much in taxes. That's a problem with socialism, not private sector or capitalism.

He then complains of the "A restricted market". Who restricts the market? If GM wants to prevent me from building cars, they can't do jack. Only the government can stop me from building cars. So who restricted the market in Greece? Government. That's socialism, not Capitalism.

Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays.
​

Pension system is a product of socialism. Not capitalism.

Greek revenue never kept up with expenditure.
​

Almost like he read my posts.

Pensions for early retirees now burden state budgets disproportionately.
​

Bloated Greek Government "no no it's a myth! But they have a burden of massive pensions for retired government employees".... Well what the crap do you call a bloated government???

That is a bloated government! When you have so much in pension payments, that you sink the entire country, that's a bloated government. You people twist the words a hundred different ways to try and hide the truth.

Corruption and Socialism go hand in hand. The fact is, without socialist policies and socialist government programs, there would never have been a crash of the entire country, no matter how much corruption there was in the government.

 

[Andylusion]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

Venezuela's problems stem from the socialist policies and the messed up currency exchange they have. Have you ever looked into it?
How to fix Venezuela
The article touches on this. Floating will help venezuela acquire more goods for the citizens, assuming they become more friendly to businesses and remove price caps/etc...

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

I agree.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

I agree, but why did you say the peso? It's the bolivar.

Now, consider Venezuela's currency exchange system, which governs how much Venezuela's currency — the bolívar — trades for against other currencies — most importantly the U.S. dollar. A functional currency exchange system is important because it allows all the various parts of a country's economy to exist in dynamic equilibrium with the flow of goods and services coming in from outside the country; it allows the domestic economy to adapt and rebalance as flows of exports and imports change.

America has a floating exchange rate. The dollar isn't pegged to anything, like another currency or the value of gold. So how much of another currency you get in exchange for a dollar "floats" up and down all the time, reacting to countless forces in the market.

Venezuela's system, by contrast, is a dysfunctional mess. The country's official exchange rate is pegged to the dollar — specifically, it's 10 bolívares for $1. So no matter what happens, whenever the government does business with anyone, it gets or gives 10 bolívares for every $1.

But there's also an enormous black market currency exchange. This is where the hyperinflation is coming from: The number of bolívares you can get for $1 on the black market has rocketed up to well over 1,000, and may go considerably higher.

You are correct, the Bolivars, not peso. I don't even think Venezuela can allow the Bolivar to float.

Black-Market Bolivars Crash Past 1,000 Per Dollar in Venezuela

According to this, the government has doubled the money supply in 12 months, which is why the black market rate is 1,000 Bolivar for one Dollar.

If they released controls now, it would be Zimbabwe all over again. People would start trading in gold dust, or dollars in the streets. The government would cease to function. Which of course would be best for the country, but a disaster for socialism, and Maduro.

 

[Andylusion]

During 2000s... which they financed the government with too much debt.

Once again in 2013, they had the largest government in the whole Europe. They are hovering in the top these days.

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

"as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy"

If only it did


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years.

I just posted the actual chart with the actual numbers.

It's 4th largest government in Europe currently. In 2013 it was the largest.

Is chart too difficult for you to read? That was over a decade ago!

The Greece state is way too big for them to ever recover...

Nobody cares what Greece was in 2013, because they were already crashed at that point.

Your logic is like seeing a man die while drinking water and concluding that water killed the man
No, the man was cancer, and cancer sucked the life out of him bit by bit, year after year

You need something called "historical" data to be able to do analysis of this type of situations
Since too hard for you to click on the link in my post, i will post the chart here;

As seen here, Greece was around the average for the years she was going into a default

So you are repeating a pretty common misconception, but thats fine...

I think all of you that are arguing about what percentage of GDP the government was spending.... are all a little nuts.

Those statistics are nice at some intellectual ivory tower somewhere, to have calculator nerds mull over after drinking too much coffee on a Friday night.

None of it though, actually matters.

Here is what matters....... Do the people who lend money, think you are a worthy borrower?

If they do not..... all your little statistics and numbers, and calculator crunching, doesn't mean diddly jack. All your charts and graphs are absolutely pointless.

Let me give you an example. So you are an executive at a major tire factory, and you want to borrow $100,000 from the bank. You walk in, ask for the loan, and bank president starts looking over your stats.

Hmmm... Stock in the tire company. $300,000 a year income. The bank may give you the loan. But what if the bank looks at your company records and finds, the company itself is deeply in debt, sales have been falling year over year, and there is new people in the market from cheaper competitors.

You may not get the loan. Why? Because all those millions in stock, will be worth zero if the company closes. And your income which is $300,000 today, could be zero after your unemployed.

One stat... Government expenditure as a percent of GDP... is not the only stat in the world that matters. It's not even the most important state.

How much were the Greek government future liabilities? How much were future pension payments expected to be? How is the Greek economy doing? Going strong? Or were there systemic problems?

I'm not going to buy a Greek bond that pays out in 10 years, based on a single statistical number that only reflects on today. Greeks Gov to GDP %, could be only 10% today. Doesn't matter. What's it going to look like in 10 years, when they are supposed to pay me back my money with interest?

And the fact is, all that BS about they were below, above, the same as the OECD doesn't matter. What matters is, the lenders deemed Greece risky. That's all that matters. Greece decided to borrow until people were no longer comfortable with how much they owed. All your "this chart shows".... doesn't matter.

Lenders don't care about your chart. So why you guys are bickering about it, I don't know. Completely irrelevant. They borrowed too much money, and lenders were not comfortable with it. Period.

This is why we in the US need to stop borrowing before that switch flips for us, and we end up in a crisis.