Ohio about to break unions; Bill passes house!

[Care4all]

I saw that Care, I posted it for you earlier and I think hes making a huge hash of this.

I posted this below, which I find well, ridiculous....think it through, so they need what? a 20% bump in pay each year in exchange for forgoing the defined pension plan?

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

and that is the case with even private sector workers
everything is a part of the pay package

right.

so giving up part of your salary increase and asking your employer to use this money towards your benefits instead of weekly cash via paycheck, is the employee giving up his earned salary compensation in return for his retirement compensation.

 

[Trajan]

I saw that Care, I posted it for you earlier and I think hes making a huge hash of this.

I posted this below, which I find well, ridiculous....think it through, so they need what? a 20% bump in pay each year in exchange for forgoing the defined pension plan?

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

and that is the case with even private sector workers
everything is a part of the pay package

right.

so giving up part of your salary increase and asking your employer to use this money towards your benefits instead of weekly cash via paycheck, is the employee giving up his earned salary compensation in return for his retirement compensation.

if this were a constant, I would say yes, then we've had to visit the pay scale. what % are they missing out on each paycheck or per year to have put in the pension fund they would draw from?

 

[Care4all]

and that is the case with even private sector workers
everything is a part of the pay package

right.

so giving up part of your salary increase and asking your employer to use this money towards your benefits instead of weekly cash via paycheck, is the employee giving up his earned salary compensation in return for his retirement compensation.

if this were a constant, I would say yes, then we've had to visit the pay scale. what % are they missing out on each paycheck or per year to have put in the pension fund they would draw from?

yep, and how many years this was done and see if that figure calculates to the portion the employer puts away in to retirement accounts each year....

 

[DiveCon]

right.

so giving up part of your salary increase and asking your employer to use this money towards your benefits instead of weekly cash via paycheck, is the employee giving up his earned salary compensation in return for his retirement compensation.

if this were a constant, I would say yes, then we've had to visit the pay scale. what % are they missing out on each paycheck or per year to have put in the pension fund they would draw from?

yep, and how many years this was done and see if that figure calculates to the portion the employer puts away in to retirement accounts each year....

the thing is, the state cant afford it
none of them can
you are going to see things like this in EVERY state
the total pay package should be commensurate with the pay level of equals in the public sector
i have no problem with that
but with the salary being equal and the bennis way unequal, the state just cant do it

its happening here in Maine as well
the unions are going to have to give up things or they will have no choice but to lay people off

 

[The T]

if this were a constant, I would say yes, then we've had to visit the pay scale. what % are they missing out on each paycheck or per year to have put in the pension fund they would draw from?

yep, and how many years this was done and see if that figure calculates to the portion the employer puts away in to retirement accounts each year....

the thing is, the state cant afford it
none of them can
you are going to see things like this in EVERY state
the total pay package should be commensurate with the pay level of equals in the public sector
i have no problem with that
but with the salary being equal and the bennis way unequal, the state just cant do it

its happening here in Maine as well
the unions are going to have to give up things or they will have no choice but to lay people off

It's also gonna be a hot topic here in Florida...

 

[Trajan]

right.

so giving up part of your salary increase and asking your employer to use this money towards your benefits instead of weekly cash via paycheck, is the employee giving up his earned salary compensation in return for his retirement compensation.

if this were a constant, I would say yes, then we've had to visit the pay scale. what % are they missing out on each paycheck or per year to have put in the pension fund they would draw from?

yep, and how many years this was done and see if that figure calculates to the portion the employer puts away in to retirement accounts each year....

and there ya go

the problem with that is you cannot go back and define it. right now they don't have a yardstick applied and a benchmark was never created, walker is attempting to create at least the semblance of one right now ala asking for 5.5%.

heres the thing- when I took my last private sector job back in the 90's they made me an offer, I said too low, come again. they then made another offer, more stock, a 7% profit sharing ( based on PROFIT year to year) investment that I did not have to contribute too. I knew up front what I was getting and could have said....no.

That was me and a private employer, who has to look at his bottom line and determine cost per employee, per year going forward, they could have come back and said thats our only offer. (some co's stopped matching in 401k's too, the employee can suck it up or......quit)

the state worker knows going in they get a defined pension plan, 2.5% per year or whatever the % in Wscy is, of their salary averaged over the last 4 years of their employment, there is no negotiation.

BECAUSE, and heres the kicker, there is NO respect for a bottom line as to cost, if the state is in dire straights, tough luck, their pension at 2.5 per year is safe, the state has to fund the pension plan for them with no recourse, my profit sharing is not, if the co. runs flat oh well, 7% of nothing is....nothing. My pension does not gain a dime over that year.

 

[Trajan]

Yer kidding, right?
Unionized public workers contribute a very small percentage of their benefits and pensions. 100% my foot.
Do you really think there isn't a single problem with pay and benefits provided to public workers? Please.
i have to chuckle at posts such as yours....No links. No facts.
Don't ever try to slip a post like this in without thinking you'll be called on it....
Wisconsin public school employee pay for the 2009-2010 school year - JSOnline
click on statewide list of average teacher salaries. Then pay very close attention to the column marked "average fringe"...This is total average annual cost of each teacher's benefits and pensions.....Add salary to the average fringe and you get the total average compensation for a teacher in each district.
So please do not try to convince the board that WI teachers pay 100% of their pension costs. Because it just is not true.

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

snip-

The conservative think tank said the average annual compensation for a Milwaukee Public Schools teacher would exceed $100,000 in 2011. As of July 1, 2011, according to the school district, that figure will be $101,091.

MacIver’s claim is True.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...r-institute-says-average-annual-salary-and-b/


further-


We wanted to compare the $101,091 for MPS teachers to other teachers, but the latest figures compiled by the state Department of Public Instruction are for 2009-2010, two years earlier.

Those figures show for 2009-2010, MPS teachers earned, on average, $56,095 in salary plus $30,202 in benefits, for a total of $86,297.

That was lower than eight other school districts in Milwaukee County, including Greendale, Greenfield, Shorewood, Cudahy, Fox Point, South Milwaukee, Franklin and Nicolet, which was highest at just over $103,000.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: $101,091: Average annual compensation for Milwaukee teachers | John McCormack | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner

 

[edthecynic]

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

 

[Trajan]

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

so the 41K is bogus because its not itemized?


Oh and "my" CON$ervative sources is.....politifact

 

[edthecynic]

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

so the 41K is bogus because its not itemized?


Oh and "my" CON$ervative sources is.....politifact

Your CON$ervative source is the Right-Wing MacIver Institute, echoed by the Right-Wing Washington Eximaner, echoed by the right-Wing Weekly Standard and then echoed by Politifact. They all quote one source, the Right-Wing think tank the MacIver Institute.
Right-Wing think tanks are notorious for cooking their stats, so I always like to verify them myself. When they don't itemize the benefits, a Cynic naturally thinks the worst!

 

[Trajan]

your favorite movie must be "Land of the Lost"

 

[thereisnospoon]

uhhhh, the link to the 100% on wisconsin teaches retirement, was given right after my post....

Benefits cost a great deal for EVERY BUSINESS OWNER....if they give health care, match the 401 k, give vacation time or sick time, pay their portion of the person's SS, life insurance policy, disability....trust me....20-30k is about what it costs private employers for a 50k a year person....as well....especially since their health insurance benefit has gone UP SO MUCH the past decade....

and rising health insurance costs for companies IS NOT THE FAULT OF the employee, is it to you?

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

 

[Trajan]

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

I feel your pain...

theres a link inside the politifact article also, to the beat writer for education for the Milwk. Journal Senti. whatever the hell its called, who pulled the info from the same place I think you posted your stats...he doesn't read, he didn't even open the links.....he emotes....*shrugs*

 

[edthecynic]

your favorite movie must be "Land of the Lost"

Thank you for itemizing the "benefits."

 

[DiveCon]

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

I feel your pain...

theres a link inside the politifact article also, to the beat writer for education for the Milwk. Journal Senti. whatever the hell its called, who pulled the info from the same place I think you posted your stats...he doesn't read, he didn't even open the links.....he emotes....*shrugs*

"he" is a moron

nuff said

 

[thereisnospoon]

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

I feel your pain...

thers a link inside the politifact article too, to the beat writer for the Milwk. Journal Senti. whtever the hell its called, who pulled the info from the same place I think you posted your stats...he doesn't read, he didn't even open the links.....he emotes....*shrugs*

I've tried to help the Lad out of his altered state. He, like other libs when faced with factual material will quickly head for the safe haven of "that's a right wing (source) then dismiss the source or attempt to discredit it.

 

[edthecynic]

HI Care...I did some more checking on salaries etc....came across this this morning..... TC standards etc...

Claim-
In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

snip-

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

So now suddenly to CON$ government information is unassailable.

 

[DiveCon]

Why don't any of your CON$ervative sources ever list what these "benefits" are?!!!!! I found that the school board pays 97% of the health insurance for single teachers which is $363 per month and 95% of the health insurance for families which is $801 per month. That is no where near a $41,591 per year benefit and CON$ can't seem to show how that $41,591 was calculated.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

So now suddenly to CON$ government information is unassailable.

what source would you accept?

 

[Trajan]

Earlier in this thread I posted a link that produced salary and benefit averages for teachers in Wisconsin.....That information came from the STATE GOVERNMENT....
What the fuck else do you want!.
Look, go bake some cookies or shove a miniature tall ship into a scotch bottle. This is not a place for you to be. You suck at this.

So now suddenly to CON$ government information is unassailable.

what source would you accept?

don't humor him....you'll just encourage him....

 

[DiveCon]

So now suddenly to CON$ government information is unassailable.

what source would you accept?

don't humor him....you'll just encourage him....

naw, i wasnt
it was sarcasm
he doesnt like any source that shows him to be a fucking moron
which most do