Of Hamlet, Monkeys and Infinity

PoliticalChic

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In the recent past I have posted about Darwin's theory as related to fossils, new species, DNA, molecules, etc. which are thought to serve as proof of evolution.
Upon close inspection, none hold up as "proof" but rather as conjecture, and an appeal to logic.
Philosophy rather than science.




1. Until I actually spent time studying the Darwinian theory of evolution, I bought it like it was on sale, as many still do. Today, I look back on so many of the false examples and arguments, and see them as fraudulent and/or childish.
And- I wonder why it is so important for Darwinists that everyone believe it....or else!

a. When Chinese paleontologist Jun-Yuan Chen’s criticism of Darwinian predictions about the fossil record was met with dead silence from a group of scientists in the U.S., he quipped that, “In China we can criticize Darwin, but not the government; in America you can criticize the government, but not Darwin.”
Darwinocracy: The evolution question in American politics | Washington Times Communities





2. A quick reminder?
One of the most famous piece of evidence for Darwinism is a study of an English peppered-moth population consisting of both dark- and light-colored moths. When industrial smoke darkened the trees, the percentage of dark moths increased, due to their relative advantage in hiding from predators. When the air pollution was reduced, the trees became lighter and more light moths survived. Both colors were present throughout, and so no new characteristics emerged, but the percentage of dark moths in the population went up and down as changing conditions affected their relative ability to survive and produce offspring.

a. Of course, in order for a theory to account for the vast diversity of life on the planet today, there must be new DNA, which produces new and original structures and body plans. Clearly, the peppered-moth example is the environment making one shade or the other more adaptive. Strike one?

Once I saw how fallacious that 'example' was, ....as the saying goes "The 13th chime of a clock, not only does it make no sense, but it calls into question the validity of the 12 chimes that preceded it."'




3.Next: If all living species descended from common ancestors by an accumulation of tiny steps, then there once must have existed a veritable universe of transitional intermediate forms…
Nay, nay.....new forms of life tend to be fully formed at their first appearance as fossils in the rocks. If these new forms actually evolved in gradual steps from pre-existing forms, as Darwinist science insists, the numerous intermediate forms that once must have existed have not been preserved.
Evolution as Dogma: The Establishment of Naturalism. Johnson, Phillip

a. High school and college science classes both claimed that said transitional forms existed all over the place. Not true.
"The complete transmutation of even one animal species into a different species has never been directly observed either in the laboratory or in the field."
Dean H. Kenyon (Professor of Biology, San Francisco State University), affidavit presented to the U.S. Supreme Court, No. 85-1513, Brief of Appellants, prepared under the direction of William J. Guste, Jr., Attorney General of the State of Louisiana, October 1985, p. A-16.


So much for the peppered-moth as evidence, and the dearth of evolutionary dead end, or transitional fossils....and no it has been a century and a half! With more full time scientists extant than ever before!
OK...are we up to date?
Good.





Startin' to feel like you're the butt of the biggest hoax ever?

Monkeys comin' right up.
 
Where do monkeys fit into this?
Right along with 'infinity.'


4. What really convince me was the appeal to 'infinity.' I mean, on the math team and all, once math was part of the 'proof'...I bought it lock, stock and barrel!

That was then....this is now.

This was the argument:
"The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare."
Infinite monkey theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Therefore, by extension, with enough time, random events would certainly result in all of the permutations and combinations of life we see today....QED,...evolution!

And upon first hearing that argument.....it seems to make sense.
First hearing......seems to....





But- any person who accepts that argument has no real understanding of mathematics, molecular biology, evolution, or the real world.
And it seems that there are quite a lot of same.




5. There are arguments that seem to make sense, until they are examined in the light of reality. Take "infinity."
Given an infinite number of trials, any outcome that has a non-zero probability, will occur. No matter how unlikely....it will happen.

This is where one should review the definition of a paradox.



The monkey is sitting in front of a typewriter, randomly hitting keys forever, will, after an unbelievably long time, will type Hamlet and all of Shakespeare's works. That means all the letters, the correct sequence, and every other factor necessary....about 30,000 words, average 5-6 letters each word, or about 150,000 characters the monkey needs to get right....and in the right order.
Now add spaces and punctuation.



On the first try, the probability is one divided by 26 to the 150,000th power. That makes it very, very close to zero.




6. What is exposed is the aspect of pure mathematics that makes it, at the very least, disingenuous to use 'infinity' as proof of evolution: it is not reality-based.
It has no connection to the real world.


a. " Now, before one attempts to explain away the obvious problem by inserting the term ‘infinity,’ let’s agree that infinity does not exist in the real world. So, without ‘infinity,’ it follows that everything in the universe is finite, therefore had a beginning….and, an end."
Andrew Parker, "The Genesis Enigma," chapter nine.



I said earlier, 'Upon close inspection, none hold up as "proof" but rather as conjecture, and an appeal to logic.
Philosophy rather than science.'




Meaning that there is no 'infinity explanation' to account for evolution.

You've been snookered again!
 
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3.Next: If all living species descended from common ancestors by an accumulation of tiny steps, then there once must have existed a veritable universe of transitional intermediate forms…
Nay, nay.....new forms of life tend to be fully formed at their first appearance as fossils in the rocks. If these new forms actually evolved in gradual steps from pre-existing forms, as Darwinist science insists, the numerous intermediate forms that once must have existed have not been preserved.
Evolution as Dogma: The Establishment of Naturalism. Johnson, Phillip

That presumes that all the transitional forms had the same population density as the original. Some transitional forms HAVE been found, but to expect to see them all is highly unlikely because of their low numbers and the fact that fossilization is the exception, not the norm. The reason the "fully formed" new species are seen more often is that at a certain point enough changes have taken place for a distinct survival advantage to take hold and a population explosion to occur.

An explanation involving creation or intelligent design would require multiple instances of creation or the constant redesigning with no transitional forms, whatsoever. This is not the case. For while we may not have all the forms, we do have enough to suggest that evolution as postulated is overwhelmingly the most likely scenario.
 
3.Next: If all living species descended from common ancestors by an accumulation of tiny steps, then there once must have existed a veritable universe of transitional intermediate forms…
Nay, nay.....new forms of life tend to be fully formed at their first appearance as fossils in the rocks. If these new forms actually evolved in gradual steps from pre-existing forms, as Darwinist science insists, the numerous intermediate forms that once must have existed have not been preserved.
Evolution as Dogma: The Establishment of Naturalism. Johnson, Phillip

That presumes that all the transitional forms had the same population density as the original. Some transitional forms HAVE been found, but to expect to see them all is highly unlikely because of their low numbers and the fact that fossilization is the exception, not the norm. The reason the "fully formed" new species are seen more often is that at a certain point enough changes have taken place for a distinct survival advantage to take hold and a population explosion to occur.

An explanation involving creation or intelligent design would require multiple instances of creation or the constant redesigning with no transitional forms, whatsoever. This is not the case. For while we may not have all the forms, we do have enough to suggest that evolution as postulated is overwhelmingly the most likely scenario.


Pay attention.

The argument is not for Intelligent Design.....it is designed as one more proof that Darwin's theory is unproven and unable to be proven.
 
7. Earlier I said to look up 'paradox:
' a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.



The "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare."
Infinite monkey theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is just such a paradox.



How to deal with it?
In college, this example of a paradox was given: Luigi the barber shaves all those and only those who don't shave themselves.
Who shaves Luigi?



Applying to reality is the solution of a paradox: demand that said Luigi be produced!




One can see, immediately, the same approach deals the death blow to "The infinite monkey theorem ."

So, one more attempt to verify Darwinian evolution falls by the wayside.
 
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3.Next: If all living species descended from common ancestors by an accumulation of tiny steps, then there once must have existed a veritable universe of transitional intermediate forms…
Nay, nay.....new forms of life tend to be fully formed at their first appearance as fossils in the rocks. If these new forms actually evolved in gradual steps from pre-existing forms, as Darwinist science insists, the numerous intermediate forms that once must have existed have not been preserved.
Evolution as Dogma: The Establishment of Naturalism. Johnson, Phillip

That presumes that all the transitional forms had the same population density as the original. Some transitional forms HAVE been found, but to expect to see them all is highly unlikely because of their low numbers and the fact that fossilization is the exception, not the norm. The reason the "fully formed" new species are seen more often is that at a certain point enough changes have taken place for a distinct survival advantage to take hold and a population explosion to occur.

An explanation involving creation or intelligent design would require multiple instances of creation or the constant redesigning with no transitional forms, whatsoever. This is not the case. For while we may not have all the forms, we do have enough to suggest that evolution as postulated is overwhelmingly the most likely scenario.

Pay attention.

The argument is not for Intelligent Design.....it is designed as one more proof that Darwin's theory is unproven and unable to be proven.

On that score you also fail. You may question Darwin's theory, but I see nothing that proves anything. Sorry if I put words in your mouth, but it's only logical to assume if you're going to debunk a theory, that you'd be putting forth one of your own. If you don't believe in evolution, what is there besides creationism and intelligent design?
 
That presumes that all the transitional forms had the same population density as the original. Some transitional forms HAVE been found, but to expect to see them all is highly unlikely because of their low numbers and the fact that fossilization is the exception, not the norm. The reason the "fully formed" new species are seen more often is that at a certain point enough changes have taken place for a distinct survival advantage to take hold and a population explosion to occur.

An explanation involving creation or intelligent design would require multiple instances of creation or the constant redesigning with no transitional forms, whatsoever. This is not the case. For while we may not have all the forms, we do have enough to suggest that evolution as postulated is overwhelmingly the most likely scenario.

Pay attention.

The argument is not for Intelligent Design.....it is designed as one more proof that Darwin's theory is unproven and unable to be proven.

On that score you also fail. You may question Darwin's theory, but I see nothing that proves anything. Sorry if I put words in your mouth, but it's only logical to assume if you're going to debunk a theory, that you'd be putting forth one of your own. If you don't believe in evolution, what is there besides creationism and intelligent design?



One thing at a time.
 
8. Another reason to reject the 'infinity' proof for evolution is that science, not mathematics, has shown that the time frame for evolution does not allow for an infinity of opportunities.



a. The time period from the Pre-Cambrian until we find all sorts of new organism, the Cambrian, is not one that allows both the creation of the specific DNA sequence by random mechanisms for each organ and body form,.....remember that these structures must occur in just the right order.


Based on the monumental changes in the life forms, there is just too limited a time frame for said changes to have occurred!
This fact would weigh heavily against the veracity of Darwin's thesis.



Here is the source of the problem:
'Before about 580 million years ago, most organisms were simple, composed of individual cells occasionally organized into colonies.... The Cambrian explosion, or Cambrian radiation, was the relatively rapid appearance, around 542 million years ago, of most major animal phyla, as demonstrated in the fossil record."
Cambrian explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Science admits to the mystery, the puzzle: less than 40 million years to produce the 'Cambrian explosion' is not possible.



Is there an inkling of a question beginning to form in the recesses of your mind.....

...one which you should have posed to every one of those acolytes of Darwin with a teaching degree?



One would hope so.
 
:cuckoo:

even the silly ehow wisdom (ahem) of the crowd knows better than polischtick: What Is the Difference Between Proof & Evidence in Science? | eHow

In the recent past I have posted about Darwin's theory as related to fossils, new species, DNA, molecules, etc. which are thought to serve as proof of evolution.

Upon close inspection, none hold up as "proof" but rather as conjecture, and an appeal to logic.
Philosophy rather than science.

...

...

Startin' to feel like you're the butt of the biggest hoax ever?

Monkeys comin' right up.

Oh the irony! The irony.


Evidence of Evolution:

Scientists have discovered a wealth of evidence concerning human evolution, and this evidence comes in many forms. Thousands of human fossils enable researchers and students to study the changes that occurred in brain and body size, locomotion, diet, and other aspects regarding the way of life of early human species over the past 6 million years. Millions of stone tools, figurines and paintings, footprints, and other traces of human behavior in the prehistoric record tell about where and how early humans lived and when certain technological innovations were invented. Study of human genetics show how closely related we are to other primates – in fact, how connected we are with all other organisms – and can indicate the prehistoric migrations of our species, Homo sapiens, all over the world. Advances in the dating of fossils and artifacts help determine the age of those remains, which contributes to the big picture of when different milestones in becoming human evolved. Human Evolution Evidence | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

Evidence in Science 101:

Imagine a soccer game, where the ball is invisible to you. If you watched the interections of the players, the grass and the slight spherical bulge in the net that happened when the goalie dived to the ground and the crowds cheered, you could conclude that there was something there, that gave meaning to all the rules of the game. To explain the universe, physicists need the absolute smallest building block, and the laws of physics.
The God Particle: Chapter 1: The Invisible Soccer Ball


Five Proofs of Evolution | Evolution FAQ

https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-2-sources-vs-information-vs-evidence-vs-proof :laugh2:


[MENTION=12394]PoliticalChic[/MENTION] :D
 
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I dont see God therefore he doesn't exist.

I dont see any "missing links" either but they MUST have existed at one time or another.

You also said "butt". Hehe!
 
Evidence

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, science is "knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws, especially as obtained and tested through scientific method." The core of the scientific method is using evidence to test theories. Evidence is specific observations of a given phenomenon. Galileo, the famed Italian scientist, was reputed to have collected evidence on gravitational forces by dropping balls from the top of the Tower of Pisa, timing how long they took to hit the ground. By analyzing this evidence, Galileo discovered that, disregarding air resistance, all objects accelerate at the same rate when falling. Galileo's experiment is a model example of the scientific method where theory is derived from observational evidence.

Proof

Proof exists when you can say that a statement or theory is absolutely true in all instances. Proof is a concept that is really only applicable in mathematics, because math deals with abstract concepts and definitions. The statement 1+1=2 is a true statement and will always remain true because the definitions of 1 and 2 never change. Definition statements and logic are used to create theorems, which are absolutely true or false.



Read more : What Is the Difference Between Proof & Evidence in Science? | eHow
silly little polischtick
 
...

And- I wonder why it is so important for Darwinists that everyone believe it....or else!

...

And I wonder why it is so important for deniers of Darwin's theory that everyone disbelieve it....or else!

I also wonder why the overwhelming majority of science and scientists back Darwin's theory

Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally—taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along. Was Darwin Wrong? @ National Geographic Magazine
 
...

And- I wonder why it is so important for Darwinists that everyone believe it....or else!

...

And I wonder why it is so important for deniers of Darwin's theory that everyone disbelieve it....or else!

I also wonder why the overwhelming majority of science and scientists back Darwin's theory

Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally—taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along. Was Darwin Wrong? @ National Geographic Magazine





"I also wonder why the overwhelming majority of science and scientists back Darwin's theory"

Science is based on evidence...not consensus.

But, then, you probably believe in global warming, too.
 
Pay attention.

The argument is not for Intelligent Design.....it is designed as one more proof that Darwin's theory is unproven and unable to be proven.

On that score you also fail. You may question Darwin's theory, but I see nothing that proves anything. Sorry if I put words in your mouth, but it's only logical to assume if you're going to debunk a theory, that you'd be putting forth one of your own. If you don't believe in evolution, what is there besides creationism and intelligent design?

One thing at a time.

Sorry but you don't decide how I'm going to post. If you can't take the heat... :cool:
 
8. Another reason to reject the 'infinity' proof for evolution is that science, not mathematics, has shown that the time frame for evolution does not allow for an infinity of opportunities.



a. The time period from the Pre-Cambrian until we find all sorts of new organism, the Cambrian, is not one that allows both the creation of the specific DNA sequence by random mechanisms for each organ and body form,.....remember that these structures must occur in just the right order.


Based on the monumental changes in the life forms, there is just too limited a time frame for said changes to have occurred!
This fact would weigh heavily against the veracity of Darwin's thesis.



Here is the source of the problem:
'Before about 580 million years ago, most organisms were simple, composed of individual cells occasionally organized into colonies.... The Cambrian explosion, or Cambrian radiation, was the relatively rapid appearance, around 542 million years ago, of most major animal phyla, as demonstrated in the fossil record."
Cambrian explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Science admits to the mystery, the puzzle: less than 40 million years to produce the 'Cambrian explosion' is not possible.

Is there an inkling of a question beginning to form in the recesses of your mind.....

...one which you should have posed to every one of those acolytes of Darwin with a teaching degree?

One would hope so.

The evolution of DNA is not nearly as complicated and time consuming as you have us believe.

The Probability of Life | Evolution FAQ
 
[MENTION=12394]PoliticalChic[/MENTION]
...

And- I wonder why it is so important for Darwinists that everyone believe it....or else!

...

And I wonder why it is so important for deniers of Darwin's theory that everyone disbelieve it....or else!

I also wonder why the overwhelming majority of science and scientists back Darwin's theory

Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally—taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along. Was Darwin Wrong? @ National Geographic Magazine





"I also wonder why the overwhelming majority of science and scientists back Darwin's theory"

Science is based on evidence...not consensus.

But, then, you probably believe in global warming, too.

There is consensus in the scientific community that the evidence is in.

Most every single scientist in the world believes in global warming. A handful dispute the why while demanding more - gulp -- evidence, not proof. :lol::lol::lol:

what a tool y'all are :eusa_angel:
 
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PC is an anti-science ignoramous with pretentions of intellect. Perhaps if there were a store where you could purchase intellect she might be able to have some.
 
HI [MENTION=12394]PoliticalChic[/MENTION]
I am more concerned about
spiritual evolution
social evolution
political development
when people rise above this "either/or" paradigm for fueling political wars
and live by ways that DON'T REQUIRE this all or nothing, "them vs us" mentality
of divide and conquer. The day that becomes "old school" maybe we will have evolved.

When we rise about the pack mentality and pecking order of animals
and act as respectable humans who embrace and include diversity
and TRUST in a higher purpose for the differences as they exist

then we can consider ourselves mature human beings
until then we are still "evolving" as a society, so that is what I focus on.
Thanks PC!
 

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