Obama calls for up/Down vote on health care

[Vast LWC]

And you act as if obstructing something that is wrong, is wrong in itself... I would do anything in my power to ensure the DEM plan is thrown to the curb and puked on.. in order to get to real reform that does not increase government, coddle with more entitlements, and put personal responsibility in the hands of others

You're not even defining what, specifically is "wrong" here, except that you feel that corporations are inherently better at looking out for people's welfare than Government, which is just wrong.

Corporations don't look out for anyone's welfare but their shareholders.

That is their purpose. It doesn't make them evil, but it sure as hell doesn't make them the best people to be in charge of pricing in the health care industry.

Give us an idea of what you do for work... you don't have to get specific, but just say what field and such.

Network Engineer, large private law firm. Prior to this career, I served in the military.

 

[Vast LWC]

And the purpose of politicians is to accrue power; they don't look out for anyone's welfare but their own and their crony-donors.

That's why we have The Constitution - to limit their power. Even with it, they seek ways around it to expand the scope of government. If you think a corporate bureaucrat is heartless and profit-seeking, you ain't seen nothing until you have to deal with Dr. DMV.

But the purpose of GOVERNMENT is to serve and protect the people it governs.

If individuals within that government become to power hungry, they can be removed quite easily in the next election cycle.

 

[DiamondDave]

You're not even defining what, specifically is "wrong" here, except that you feel that corporations are inherently better at looking out for people's welfare than Government, which is just wrong.

Corporations don't look out for anyone's welfare but their shareholders.

(Edit)

That is their purpose. It doesn't make them evil, but it sure as hell doesn't make them the best people to be in charge of pricing in the health care industry..

The corporation NOR the government is there to look out for your personal welfare or the paying for it... YOU ARE, MOTHERFUCKER

OK, first of all, I edited my post after you quoted it, as defined above.

Secondly, calling someone a "fool" or a "motherfucker" only serves to weaken your point. But hey, you can go ahead and look foolish if you want by casting dispersions with no apparent purpose, it's a free country.

I will call any entitlement junkie a fool or a motherfucker....

The corporation is there for you to FREELY (you notice a derivative from the term free and freedom) partake of their services to suit your own needs.. and for these services you pay the agreed upon price... you are not required to do it, nor are you forced...

The DEM solution will force persons to pay for something whether they want it or not... or worse yet, force some to pay for the personal services of others, on top of paying for their own... the DEM solution will expand government and it's control and it's interference, hence forcing you to pay even more to a government that is already over-bloated with reach and power

And what it comes down to is YOU are the ONLY ONE responsible for YOU, YOUR well being, and paying for YOUR personal upkeep

As stated so many times.. this is not real reform.. this is more power, more expansion, more entitlements, and more buying of votes with those entitlements..... I would support real reform in pre-existing conditions, increased and more widespread competition, more reform in law suits, more reform in allowing more groups to get into the market to apply for group rates, etc... I will not afford this anal abomination by the DEMs

 

[boedicca]

But the purpose of GOVERNMENT is to serve and protect the people it governs.

If individuals within that government become to power hungry, they can be removed quite easily in the next election cycle.

No, it most certainly is not. Throughout history most governments have existed to secure the power of the rulers and to keep the slaves/serfs/people controlled for the elite's benefits.

The U.S. is one of the few unique cases in which the government system was designed to protect individual rights and limit government power.

 

[DiamondDave]

And the purpose of politicians is to accrue power; they don't look out for anyone's welfare but their own and their crony-donors.

That's why we have The Constitution - to limit their power. Even with it, they seek ways around it to expand the scope of government. If you think a corporate bureaucrat is heartless and profit-seeking, you ain't seen nothing until you have to deal with Dr. DMV.

But the purpose of GOVERNMENT is to serve and protect the people it governs.

If individuals within that government become to power hungry, they can be removed quite easily in the next election cycle.

Don't confuse the motto of the police with the purpose of government... the government, nor society, nor anyone else, exists to provide for your personal needs.. the government exists to secure your freedom to provide and take care of yourself and your personal needs.. the government exists to protect the country and the populace as a whole, not the individuals at the expense of other individuals whose freedom is encroached upon thru redistribution entitlements

 

[Care4all]

You're not even defining what, specifically is "wrong" here, except that you feel that corporations are inherently better at looking out for people's welfare than Government, which is just wrong.

Corporations don't look out for anyone's welfare but their shareholders.

That is their purpose. It doesn't make them evil, but it sure as hell doesn't make them the best people to be in charge of pricing in the health care industry.

Give us an idea of what you do for work... you don't have to get specific, but just say what field and such.

Network Engineer, large private law firm. Prior to this career, I served in the military.

Kudos! Two great careers!

 

[Vast LWC]

I will call any entitlement junkie a fool or a motherfucker....

And that is your right, but it will not add to the public discourse on the subject, it will only serve to increase the divide between the schools of thought on this issue.

But again, that's only proving my point.

The corporation is there for you to FREELY (you notice a derivative from the term free and freedom) partake of their services to suit your own needs.. and for these services you pay the agreed upon price... you are not required to do it, nor are you forced...

A corporation does not have to freely and equally provide anyone anything, even if you are paying them. Surely they want to make money, but they are free to deny service to whomever they want.

They are also free to charge you an arm or a leg for services that you desperately need.

The DEM solution will force persons to pay for something whether they want it or not... or worse yet, force some to pay for the personal services of others, on top of paying for their own... the DEM solution will expand government and it's control and it's interference, hence forcing you to pay even more to a government that is already over-bloated with reach and power

"Over-bloated with reach and power" is purely your opinion. The Constitution has not been breached in any way.

In my opinion, corporations are "over-bloated with reach and power", and in many ways control large parts of the government as it is.

And what it comes down to is YOU are the ONLY ONE responsible for YOU, YOUR well being, and paying for YOUR personal upkeep

And I would in fact be paying for my health coverage.

The primary purpose of government, however, is to protect and defend the populace from enemies foreign and domestic.

If a corporation is attempting to gouge the populace in the provision of needed resources, then it is the governments duty to step in and attempt to protect the populace from harm.

As stated so many times.. this is not real reform.. this is more power, more expansion, more entitlements, and more buying of votes with those entitlements..... I would support real reform in pre-existing conditions, increased and more widespread competition, more reform in law suits, more reform in allowing more groups to get into the market to apply for group rates, etc... I will not afford this anal abomination by the DEMs

I would agree that it is not "real" reform, but only because the stick that the government would otherwise be able to hold over the insurance industry, the "Public Option" is not included.

 

[Vast LWC]

Kudos! Two great careers!

Thanks! I really enjoy my job too, it's a new challenge every day.

 

[Vast LWC]

But the purpose of GOVERNMENT is to serve and protect the people it governs.

If individuals within that government become to power hungry, they can be removed quite easily in the next election cycle.

No, it most certainly is not. Throughout history most governments have existed to secure the power of the rulers and to keep the slaves/serfs/people controlled for the elite's benefits.

The U.S. is one of the few unique cases in which the government system was designed to protect individual rights and limit government power.

Yes, and when I say the "purpose of government", I mean what the government is supposed to do. And certainly that is the purpose of our government, as well as most enlightened modern governments.

 

[EriktheRed]

And if it is, then it is still my responsibility to provide for it... not someone else's responsibility to provide it for me... my personal need for my personal situation is my personal responsibility

I'm not asking you or anyone else to provide it. I'm asking that these costs be kept down to acceptable levels, not that someone else pay for it.

I am asking that corporations not be allowed to rip me off, along with the rest of our population, because they have us over a barrel.

It's not like we can do without health care. $30,000 a year is downright extortion.

Am I for changing things to increase competition (and NO, having the governing entity get its hands in as an insurer or provider is NOT competition)

Yes, it is.

, ensure there is legislation concerning pre-existing conditions, and making the market more expansive in choices of coverage purchasing??

Both of which are included in this legislation.

Hell yes.. Am I for reforms to tort law?? Hell yes... Am I for punishments to people committing fraud and abusing the system out of monies?? Hell yes.... but I am in no way for this anal baby of an abomination that the entitlement junkie lefties want

And Tort Law reform is something the Republicans can make legislation about when they have the majority.

I personally think it should be included, and Obama has actually made some concessions on this point, including a program to look into fixing Tort law.

However, the cost savings from Tort Reform will be minimal at best. Maybe it'll knock about $20.00 off that $30,000.00 yearly bill. Great.

Kinda doubt it would change most Repubs' minds if it were included, anyway.

 

[boedicca]

It wasn't that long ago that Obama was making speeches crowing about the itsy bitsy budget reductions he was able to squeeze out of the $3.71T monstrosity. But now, tort reform that results in much larger savings is pooh poohed.

Go figure.

 

[EriktheRed]

And if I want to do a bathroom improvement by redoing the tile and floor, and the contractor states the only way it will happen is if I also do the paint, the plumbing, a complete kitchen remodel, and also pay for my neighbor's basement remodeling, then I would obstruct that as well... no matter how bad I want my bathroom tile and floor done

And there you have it. My point is made. I guess it wasn't "BS" after all was it? It's obstructionism, pure and simple.

Now that's not fair. Who wouldn't balk at a deal like that?


I get his point, but I don't think it's really apt here because I don't believe there was ever any legit effort on the GOP's part to work for this to pass. They are absolutely at their core against this kind of legislation.

 

[slackjawed]

Perhaps if something was done to reign in institutionalized health insurance fraud, especially with public programs, it would save money.
from wiki:
Insurance fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Health care insurance

"According to Roger Feldman, Blue Cross Professor of Health Insurance at the University of Minnesota, one of the main reasons that medical fraud is such a prevalent practice is that nearly all of the parties involved find it favorable in some way. Many physicians see it as necessary to provide quality care for their patients. Many patients, although disapproving of the idea of fraud, are sometimes more willing to accept it when it affects their own medical care. Program administrators are often lenient on the issue of insurance fraud, as they want to maximize the services of their providers.[16]

The most common perpetrators of healthcare insurance fraud are health care providers. One reason for this, according to David Hyman, a Professor at the University of Maryland School of Law, is that the historically prevailing attitude in the medical profession is one of “fidelity to patients”.[17] This incentive can lead to fraudulent practices such as billing insurers for treatments that are not covered by the patient’s insurance policy. To do this, physicians often bill for a different service, which is covered by the policy, than that which was rendered.[18]

Another motivation for insurance fraud in the healthcare industry, just as in all other types of insurance fraud, is a desire for financial gain. Public healthcare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are especially conducive to fraudulent activities, as they are often run on a fee-for-service structure.[19] Physicians use several fraudulent techniques to achieve this end. These can include “up-coding” or “upgrading,” which involve billing for more expensive treatments than those actually provided; providing and subsequently billing for treatments that are not medically necessary; scheduling extra visits for patients; referring patients to another physician when no further treatment is actually necessary; "phantom billing," or billing for services not rendered; and “ganging,” or billing for services to family members or other individuals who are accompanying the patient but who did not personally receive any services.[20]"


I made the parts I see as cost saving bold.

 

[Vast LWC]

Perhaps if something was done to reign in institutionalized health insurance fraud, especially with public programs, it would save money.
from wiki:
Insurance fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Health care insurance

"According to Roger Feldman, Blue Cross Professor of Health Insurance at the University of Minnesota, one of the main reasons that medical fraud is such a prevalent practice is that nearly all of the parties involved find it favorable in some way. Many physicians see it as necessary to provide quality care for their patients. Many patients, although disapproving of the idea of fraud, are sometimes more willing to accept it when it affects their own medical care. Program administrators are often lenient on the issue of insurance fraud, as they want to maximize the services of their providers.[16]

The most common perpetrators of healthcare insurance fraud are health care providers. One reason for this, according to David Hyman, a Professor at the University of Maryland School of Law, is that the historically prevailing attitude in the medical profession is one of “fidelity to patients”.[17] This incentive can lead to fraudulent practices such as billing insurers for treatments that are not covered by the patient’s insurance policy. To do this, physicians often bill for a different service, which is covered by the policy, than that which was rendered.[18]

Another motivation for insurance fraud in the healthcare industry, just as in all other types of insurance fraud, is a desire for financial gain. Public healthcare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are especially conducive to fraudulent activities, as they are often run on a fee-for-service structure.[19] Physicians use several fraudulent techniques to achieve this end. These can include “up-coding” or “upgrading,” which involve billing for more expensive treatments than those actually provided; providing and subsequently billing for treatments that are not medically necessary; scheduling extra visits for patients; referring patients to another physician when no further treatment is actually necessary; "phantom billing," or billing for services not rendered; and “ganging,” or billing for services to family members or other individuals who are accompanying the patient but who did not personally receive any services.[20]"


I made the parts I see as cost saving bold.

Very interesting stuff.

Isn't there some provision for undercover investigation into just this type of fraud in the current proposal?

I think I read something about that.

 

[slackjawed]

Perhaps if something was done to reign in institutionalized health insurance fraud, especially with public programs, it would save money.
from wiki:
Insurance fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Health care insurance

"According to Roger Feldman, Blue Cross Professor of Health Insurance at the University of Minnesota, one of the main reasons that medical fraud is such a prevalent practice is that nearly all of the parties involved find it favorable in some way. Many physicians see it as necessary to provide quality care for their patients. Many patients, although disapproving of the idea of fraud, are sometimes more willing to accept it when it affects their own medical care. Program administrators are often lenient on the issue of insurance fraud, as they want to maximize the services of their providers.[16]

The most common perpetrators of healthcare insurance fraud are health care providers. One reason for this, according to David Hyman, a Professor at the University of Maryland School of Law, is that the historically prevailing attitude in the medical profession is one of “fidelity to patients”.[17] This incentive can lead to fraudulent practices such as billing insurers for treatments that are not covered by the patient’s insurance policy. To do this, physicians often bill for a different service, which is covered by the policy, than that which was rendered.[18]

Another motivation for insurance fraud in the healthcare industry, just as in all other types of insurance fraud, is a desire for financial gain. Public healthcare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are especially conducive to fraudulent activities, as they are often run on a fee-for-service structure.[19] Physicians use several fraudulent techniques to achieve this end. These can include “up-coding” or “upgrading,” which involve billing for more expensive treatments than those actually provided; providing and subsequently billing for treatments that are not medically necessary; scheduling extra visits for patients; referring patients to another physician when no further treatment is actually necessary; "phantom billing," or billing for services not rendered; and “ganging,” or billing for services to family members or other individuals who are accompanying the patient but who did not personally receive any services.[20]"


I made the parts I see as cost saving bold.

Very interesting stuff.

Isn't there some provision for undercover investigation into just this type of fraud in the current proposal?

I think I read something about that.

I read a part of the bill that would provide investigations into phantom billing, the ganging, ect. The practice of "up-coding", or providing one service that is not covered and billing for another seems to be accepted. It has become part of the system, to provide 'fidelity to patients'. It just seems like there are things that could be fixed, that new laws are not even required to do, like institutionalized insurance fraud.
And as i have beat to death, charging more to patients with insurance than to those that do not have it. Somehow, that has to be unethical, if not illegal.

 

[DiamondDave]

I will call any entitlement junkie a fool or a motherfucker....

And that is your right, but it will not add to the public discourse on the subject, it will only serve to increase the divide between the schools of thought on this issue.

But again, that's only proving my point.

The corporation is there for you to FREELY (you notice a derivative from the term free and freedom) partake of their services to suit your own needs.. and for these services you pay the agreed upon price... you are not required to do it, nor are you forced...

A corporation does not have to freely and equally provide anyone anything, even if you are paying them. Surely they want to make money, but they are free to deny service to whomever they want.

They are also free to charge you an arm or a leg for services that you desperately need.



"Over-bloated with reach and power" is purely your opinion. The Constitution has not been breached in any way.

In my opinion, corporations are "over-bloated with reach and power", and in many ways control large parts of the government as it is.

And what it comes down to is YOU are the ONLY ONE responsible for YOU, YOUR well being, and paying for YOUR personal upkeep

And I would in fact be paying for my health coverage.

The primary purpose of government, however, is to protect and defend the populace from enemies foreign and domestic.

If a corporation is attempting to gouge the populace in the provision of needed resources, then it is the governments duty to step in and attempt to protect the populace from harm.

As stated so many times.. this is not real reform.. this is more power, more expansion, more entitlements, and more buying of votes with those entitlements..... I would support real reform in pre-existing conditions, increased and more widespread competition, more reform in law suits, more reform in allowing more groups to get into the market to apply for group rates, etc... I will not afford this anal abomination by the DEMs

I would agree that it is not "real" reform, but only because the stick that the government would otherwise be able to hold over the insurance industry, the "Public Option" is not included.

1) You made no point
2) A corporation does not have to do anything, nor do you.. both are FREE to provide or consume as they freely wish... and you are free to shop elsewhere... the beauty of free enterprise over forced government participation and forced payment by one for another under governmental control
3) Corporations are not overbloated with power because you are not forced to consume a corporation's good... with the government and the taxes being redistributed, you are indeed forced to do so... even if it is not for your personal need but for the need of a person who does not provide for their own personal need
4) YOU may be.. but under the DEM plan you and others would indeed be involuntarily paying for the care of others PERSONAL needs and wants as well... not the purpose of government
5) The purpose of government is not to protect against enemies foreign and domestic... you indeed have an affinity to use slogans of other entities in an attempt to put those things upon the government.. I told you EXACTLY what government is 'supposed' to do
6) The government has no business in 'public option'... as the government is not you mommy, you nanny, your insurer, or your healthcare provider... nor should it be.... government is your maker and enforcer of laws... your government is there to protect your freedoms, not to protect you from your earning power or your unwillingness to provide what you need for yourself or for what you want for yourself

 

[Yurt]

OBAMA ‘AMERICAN AGENDA’ FLASHBACK: DEMS SHOULD NOT PASS HEALTHCARE WITH A 50-PLUS-1 STRATEGY

Breitbart.tv Obama ‘American Agenda’ Flashback: Dems Should Not Pass Healthcare With a 50-Plus-1 Strategy

amazing, i believe he has numerous other quotes about how is against the 50 plus 1 strategy to pass any major legislation, i believe he said 60 is needed, then and only then will the legislation truly be an "american" legislation because the people will have spoken with a super majority....

his intellectual dishonest shouldn't surprise anyone though

 

[HUGGY]

I hear a sound... the giant sucking sound created by his poll numbers crashing........

Go fuck yourself.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Are you expecting anything like Ethical Consistency from him?

I gave up on that long ago.

I thought it appropriate to document Obama throwing Obama under the bus.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

This guy still doesn't get it. We want comprehensive bipartisan healthcare reform....NOT HIS ONE-SIDED SPECIAL DEAL FOR UNIONS.

And that is the biggest line of BS I have ever heard.

No-one on the Republican side seems to want any kind of health care reform at all, if it contains even one idea that was suggested by a Democrat.

All Republicans have done this entire time is run scare tactic campaigns and attempted to delay this legislation any way they possibly can until November comes around.

The Democrats keep on proposing that Republican ideas be accepted into the legislation, and then the Republicans keep on turning around and claiming they don't want the amendments and ideas they themselves suggested...

Now look who's in la la land....Republicans have stated time and again that they want BIPARTISAN HEALTHCARE REFORM...NOT YOUR BULLSHIT LOUISIANA PURCHASE SPECIAL DEAL...GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK NEANDERTHAL SKULL!!!