No Peace.

[RoccoR]

pbel, Kondor3, et al,

Who does this help and what does it accomplish?

It doesn't matter. The world is bone-weary over this and wants it done-with. Enough already. Look at the map. It's over. Find another place to live. Soon.

The World just recognized a Palestinian State to the 67 borders and a boycott has begun...Yes Israel won't comply and has the military power to resist... 1.4 billion Muslims will also resist and wait until they get their military power updated...fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand, like the Palestinians, they will not cower...The end game is yet to be seen.

(COMMENT)

So what is the plan? And who are we talking about? What will the effect will time have?

Are we saying that the "Muslim Region" is going to be the same in "fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand" years from now? That intellectually and philosophically they will not have advanced?

You are right, the "End Game" has not been written. But the path being talked about here is a bit challenged (maybe more than a bit). It presupposes that intellectual advancement, emotional development, and academic progress will not advance much in that time span. That during the interim period, the conditions that warrant a continuation of this very same strategy (for "fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand" years from now) will be maintained by the very same intellectual capacity, emotional stability, and academic achievement that allows the very same a course of action selected today (a "no change" scenario).

I don't buy that. I don't think even the Palestinians are capable of maintaining a "no change state" in their position. They would have to be in almost an intellectual and emotional vegetative state, immune to even the slightest mutation in their position. And this assumes that no external influence will impact the dynamics of the situation. In "fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand" years from now the perception and the ability to adjust and accomodate to the outcomes will have changed. All we have to do is wait long enough.

If there is one thing we can count on is the eventuality of change.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

pbel, Kondor3, et al,

Who does this help and what does it accomplish?

It doesn't matter. The world is bone-weary over this and wants it done-with. Enough already. Look at the map. It's over. Find another place to live. Soon.

The World just recognized a Palestinian State to the 67 borders and a boycott has begun...Yes Israel won't comply and has the military power to resist... 1.4 billion Muslims will also resist and wait until they get their military power updated...fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand, like the Palestinians, they will not cower...The end game is yet to be seen.

(COMMENT)

So what is the plan? And who are we talking about? What will the effect will time have?

Are we saying that the "Muslim Region" is going to be the same in "fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand" years from now? That intellectually and philosophically they will not have advanced?

You are right, the "End Game" has not been written. But the path being talked about here is a bit challenged (maybe more than a bit). It presupposes that intellectual advancement, emotional development, and academic progress will not advance much in that time span. That during the interim period, the conditions that warrant a continuation of this very same strategy (for "fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand" years from now) will be maintained by the very same intellectual capacity, emotional stability, and academic achievement that allows the very same a course of action selected today (a "no change" scenario).

I don't buy that. I don't think even the Palestinians are capable of maintaining a "no change state" in their position. They would have to be in almost an intellectual and emotional vegetative state, immune to even the slightest mutation in their position. And this assumes that no external influence will impact the dynamics of the situation. In "fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand" years from now the perception and the ability to adjust and accomodate to the outcomes will have changed. All we have to do is wait long enough.

If there is one thing we can count on is the eventuality of change.

Most Respectfully,
R

You forgot to mention the Military advancement that goes along with all the other advancements of 1.4 billion people and counting...Israel would be smart to accept the new peace offer and become part and parcell of the ME and not be a Lackey of the Western Powers.

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, Kondor3, et al,

Yes, this is a line of thought that has not caught-up with the rest of the world. It is diametrically opposed and counter to the principle that:

States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations,

SOURCE: Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations - Main Page

It is an example of exactly what I was eluding to; mainly the lack of intellectual comprehension of what is right and wrong.

But eventually, the Muslim World, in general, and the Palestinian, specifically, will reach the point that they will embrace these concepts and principles.

You forgot to mention the Military advancement that goes along with all the other advancements of 1.4 billion people and counting...Israel would be smart to accept the new peace offer and become part and parcell of the ME and not be a Lackey of the Western Powers.

(COMMENT)

What Israel accepts or rejects is a decision that is squarely in their court. The Western Alliance and Allied Powers can render advice; but, in the end - it is their decision and one that they are intellectually and developmentally capable of reaching.

(DISCUSSION) Cultural Segregationist

The entire attitude projected by the statement "become part and parcell of the ME and not be a Lackey of the Western Powers" is a post-qualifier to the totally unhelpful and counterproductive intimidation clause "Israel would be smart to accept."

• Israel doesn't respond well to threats and attempts at intimidation. This type of projected attitude generates an inherent tendency to reject offers based on principle.
• Israel is an amalgamation of numerous cultures and ethnic variety. It is neither counter to the Muslim dominated Middle East (ME), or the Western world that brought us into the 21st Century.

Sound and Valid Arguments can be made for both parts of the segregationist question (Lackey of the Western Powers).

• The Western World, of which Israel is tethered, is based on secular principles in large part. Is the Muslim world ready to accommodate secularism?
  
• Can the rights and privileges of a Western culture be assimilated by a Muslim culture?

Irony: It is odd that the Palestinian - obedient follower of Islam, excessively willing to obey Hamas orders and the Charter of Jihad --- would refer to Israel as the Lackey of the Western Powers. Yet, when Israel chose an alternative to a western edict, the first thing the Palestinian trout-out are Western Laws and Western Human Rights Principles and waive them around like a banner at a Macy's Day Parade. And even more intriguing is that these Laws and Principles are as alien to the Muslim world as anything written on Mars.​

• Does the Muslim world in the Middle East really want to separate from the cultures of the west?

In time, as the intellectual capacity of the Middle East cultures advances, these questions might be answerable.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[sealadaigh]

Kondor3, georgephillip, et al,

George, our friend (Kondor3) is correct.

It doesn't matter a damn... the War for Palestine has been fought... and won by the Israelis in 1967... they will keep the Golan Heights... they will Keep Jerusalem... and they will complete the process of nudging out the remaining West Bank folk over the next decade or two, so that there's nothing left but Gaza, and that'll be next.

The Arabs had plenty of opportunities to 'make nice' between 1948 and 1967 and threw them all away. Well... like it or not, it's too late now. No return of the Golan. No surrender of Israeli control of Jerusalem. No Right of Return. It's too late for all that now. Decades too late.

It's over. Within 20 years, the West Bank will be purely Israeli and there won't be anything more than a postage-stamp left of Gaza. It's time to toss in the towel and leave the region.

(COMMENT)

There are documents and event which will always be important from a historical viewpoint; but, the purpose or intentions embedded in them have been overtaken by events. At one time, it was extremely important to today's events - what was said by Lord Balfour, or in the Treaty of Sevres, or the Charter and Mandate. Yes, they are important on how we got here. But, as to what is applicable today - relative to Israel - are the instruments that are in force today; the Peace Treaties, the Armistice, the Hamas Charter, and the edicts of Hezbollah (to name a few).

You have to evaluate today and ask yourself:

• What is changeable?
• What is unalterable?
• What is reasonable?
• What matters?

In many discussions, I've notice that I get caught-up in debates that have no relevance to the here and now. What happened a hundred years ago, whether correct or not, happened. It is the consequences that are important. Whether Israel was properly created or not, it cannot be undone. It is. The wars, and the lost ground, are a consequence of a conscious choice to a long-term and continuous conflict. And the Palestinian choice to remain a threat to regional security and the territorial integrity of Israel will have future consequences not yet realized; but clearly, "occupation" is a consequence.

Most Respectfully,
R

israel is not done and can very well be undone.

 

[Kondor3]

It doesn't matter. The world is bone-weary over this and wants it done-with. Enough already. Look at the map. It's over. Find another place to live. Soon.

"The World just recognized a Palestinian State to the 67 borders..."

From 'Non-Member Entity' to 'Non-Member State' - big deal - they're already out of time - based on the map, at this rate, they'll be a 'Non-Member Ghostly Memory' in another 20 years, and you'll be able to use that UN Resolution as toilet paper.

"...and a boycott has begun..."

It's a joke... a circus flea... and nothing is going to come of it.

"...Yes Israel won't comply and has the military power to resist..."

They don't need military power to 'resist'. The UN Resolution has no teeth. Absolutely none. No resistance required.

"...1.4 billion Muslims will also resist..."

That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. You're not scaring anybody.

"...and wait until they get their military power updated...fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand, like the Palestinians, they will not cower..."

But... but... but... Islam is a Religion, not a Political System, isn't it?

And the Religion of Peace, too, isn't it?

Now, what-in-the-world would The Religion of Peace want with a joint military capability?

That's all a very pretty propaganda speech, but it's meaningless in the Real World.

The last shreds of today's Palestine will be gone in 20 years or so.

Muslims are their own worst enemy and fight with each other even more than with outsiders.

Very few of your threatened 1.4 billion are going to even think of doing anything other than to drop a few shekels in the basket on Friday Night...

Much less actually do diddly-squat about it.

Too far away, too difficult a fight, too little in return, too much risk of broadening beyond Israel, and too close to being over before it even begins.

"...The end game is yet to be seen."

True.

Let me give you a preview...

Project yourself 20 years or so into the future...

"May I have your attention, please? Will the last Palestinian to leave the former territories please turn out the lights? Thank you."

Stop kidding yourself... look at the map... it's over.

 

[Intense]

Apparently, there's more money to be made in pipelines than in peace:

"The 2006 War on Lebanon

"The historical background of these recent events should be understood. In 2006, Lebanon was bombed by the Israeli Air Force. Israeli troops crossed the border and were repealed by Hezbollah forces.

"The 2006 war on Lebanon was part of a carefully planned and coordinated military road map. The extension of the 2006 war on Lebanon into Syria had been contemplated by US and Israeli military planners.

"This broader 2006 military agenda was intimately related to strategic oil and oil pipelines. It was supported by the Western oil giants which control the pipeline corridors."

There are three maps on pages 5-7 of this link that show exactly why Israel can never afford peace.
The borders of major Arab and Persian states are being redrawn for the early 21st Century.
"Free" Kurdistan will be the major talking point.
It is all just another lie the Rich tell.

The PNAC Neo-Cons are the ones who convinced GWB and Netanyahu that the Arab Spring was needed to rid all Arab Dictators and thought that Democracies would help Israel and the American Oil Companies...

From what I've seen the Democracies thus far are Islamic in nature and are no friend to the USA or Israel.

I wonder if Phillip can prove to us his statement as follows:
"The PNAC Neo-Cons are the ones who convinced GWB and Netanyahu that the Arab Spring was needed to rid all Arab Dictators and thought that Democracies would help Israel and the American Oil Companies."

I on the other hand feel that once this Arab Spring got started, it kept on rolling on because there were people in these different countries who actually wanted to get rid of the dictators and instead wanted a democracy. It's a shame, though that the Islamists seem to be taking over, and the people hoping for a democracy in their individual countries might never see it.. If Phillip is so hot to blame the Jews as per usual, maybe he should blame it on the Jews who are responsible for the Internet sites like Facebook or Google that gave these Muslims hoping for a democracy a way to see what was happening in other Middle East countries and to communicate with each other rapidly.

I think he has Bush confused with Obama. Yhe end justifies the means, though.

 

[pbel]

The PNAC Neo-Cons are the ones who convinced GWB and Netanyahu that the Arab Spring was needed to rid all Arab Dictators and thought that Democracies would help Israel and the American Oil Companies...

From what I've seen the Democracies thus far are Islamic in nature and are no friend to the USA or Israel.

I wonder if Phillip can prove to us his statement as follows:
"The PNAC Neo-Cons are the ones who convinced GWB and Netanyahu that the Arab Spring was needed to rid all Arab Dictators and thought that Democracies would help Israel and the American Oil Companies."

I on the other hand feel that once this Arab Spring got started, it kept on rolling on because there were people in these different countries who actually wanted to get rid of the dictators and instead wanted a democracy. It's a shame, though that the Islamists seem to be taking over, and the people hoping for a democracy in their individual countries might never see it.. If Phillip is so hot to blame the Jews as per usual, maybe he should blame it on the Jews who are responsible for the Internet sites like Facebook or Google that gave these Muslims hoping for a democracy a way to see what was happening in other Middle East countries and to communicate with each other rapidly.

I think he has Bush confused with Obama. Yhe end justifies the means, though.

The best I can do is this quote without reasearch...However, Bush was in office when the Iraq war began.

"In 1996, when Benjamin Netanyahu was prepared to take office, eight Jewish neocon leaders sent him a six-page memo outlining an aggressive vision of government. At the top of their list was overthrowing Saddam. They sketched out a kind of domino theory in which the governments of Syria and other Arab countries might later fall or be replaced. They (also) urged Netanyahu to spurn the Oslo peace accords and stop making concessions to Palestinians. Lead writer of that memo was Richard Perle."
--- Ari Shavit, Haaretz News Service (Israel) April 5, 2003

 

[pbel]

It doesn't matter. The world is bone-weary over this and wants it done-with. Enough already. Look at the map. It's over. Find another place to live. Soon.

"The World just recognized a Palestinian State to the 67 borders..."

From 'Non-Member Entity' to 'Non-Member State' - big deal - they're already out of time - based on the map, at this rate, they'll be a 'Non-Member Ghostly Memory' in another 20 years, and you'll be able to use that UN Resolution as toilet paper.



It's a joke... a circus flea... and nothing is going to come of it.



They don't need military power to 'resist'. The UN Resolution has no teeth. Absolutely none. No resistance required.



That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. You're not scaring anybody.

"...and wait until they get their military power updated...fifty years, a hundred, or a thousand, like the Palestinians, they will not cower..."

But... but... but... Islam is a Religion, not a Political System, isn't it?

And the Religion of Peace, too, isn't it?

Now, what-in-the-world would The Religion of Peace want with a joint military capability?

That's all a very pretty propaganda speech, but it's meaningless in the Real World.

The last shreds of today's Palestine will be gone in 20 years or so.

Muslims are their own worst enemy and fight with each other even more than with outsiders.

Very few of your threatened 1.4 billion are going to even think of doing anything other than to drop a few shekels in the basket on Friday Night...

Much less actually do diddly-squat about it.

Too far away, too difficult a fight, too little in return, too much risk of broadening beyond Israel, and too close to being over before it even begins.

"...The end game is yet to be seen."

True.

Let me give you a preview...

Project yourself 20 years or so into the future...

"May I have your attention, please? Will the last Palestinian to leave the former territories please turn out the lights? Thank you."

Stop kidding yourself... look at the map... it's over.

As anyone can easily see by the many Islamist regimes that politics and religion in Islamic nations are close to being one.

 

[Kondor3]

"...As anyone can easily see by the many Islamist regimes that politics and religion in Islamic nations are close to being one."

You and I may not agree upon the Israel-Palestine situation but we are in agreement on this one...

 

[RoccoR]

Kondor3, pbel, et al,

Yes, there is a very strong correlation between the religion and the process of government.

"...As anyone can easily see by the many Islamist regimes that politics and religion in Islamic nations are close to being one."

You and I may not agree upon the Israel-Palestine situation but we are in agreement on this one...

(COMMENT)

It is not just Islamic nations.

Here, in the US, there are many issues that are heavily influence by strong Judeo-Christian values stremming from basic religious beliefs; whether we talk about abortion, same-sex marriage, stem cell research, the old Blue Laws, and Capitol Executions (Death Penalty), etc. Just recently I was looking at an older opinion page that I could share:

For example, The Family Leader (the group that has called for presidential candidates sign a pledge supporting “family values&#8221 has a Voter’s Guide that specifies the “attributes of a strong Christian leader.” According to the guide, a strong Christian leader “understands key elements of God’s law,” which means that, for example, the leader “upholds the Biblical principles of responsibility and accountability in civil life, thereby limiting the size and cost of civil government”; “encourages an ethical and free enterprise system, and understands it is the only economic model in accord with Biblical principles”; and “understands the right to bear and keep arms” for defensive purposes. The guide also specifies that strong Christian leaders must subscribe to various views about how to interpret the United States Constitution.

SOURCE: Should Religion Play a Role in Politics? - NYTimes.com

I have observed that nations, which have diversity in culture, generally have legal systems which blend together those values in a sectarian way. But societies which are less tolerant and much less diverse, like many Muslim countries, tend to rely heavily on a single religion (like Sharia Law). And while diversity often leads to advancements, understanding, and alternations to accomodate man and society in the sectarian world, concepts like Sharia Law, which make so very few changes, never evolve and so --- look rather barbaric by advanced western evolutionary standards. Things like honor killings, amputation of limbs, and stoning would not be considered in the more advanced cultures.

The lack of evolution within a society, the lack of intellectual advancements, and together with the concept that not all are created equal, places an enormous power and influence in the hands of the clerics within the religion. And in that concentration of power and influence, comes the tendency to expand and defend that power and influence.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

Kondor3, pbel, et al,

Yes, there is a very strong correlation between the religion and the process of government.

"...As anyone can easily see by the many Islamist regimes that politics and religion in Islamic nations are close to being one."

You and I may not agree upon the Israel-Palestine situation but we are in agreement on this one...

(COMMENT)

It is not just Islamic nations.

Here, in the US, there are many issues that are heavily influence by strong Judeo-Christian values stremming from basic religious beliefs; whether we talk about abortion, same-sex marriage, stem cell research, the old Blue Laws, and Capitol Executions (Death Penalty), etc. Just recently I was looking at an older opinion page that I could share:

For example, The Family Leader (the group that has called for presidential candidates sign a pledge supporting “family values&#8221 has a Voter’s Guide that specifies the “attributes of a strong Christian leader.” According to the guide, a strong Christian leader “understands key elements of God’s law,” which means that, for example, the leader “upholds the Biblical principles of responsibility and accountability in civil life, thereby limiting the size and cost of civil government”; “encourages an ethical and free enterprise system, and understands it is the only economic model in accord with Biblical principles”; and “understands the right to bear and keep arms” for defensive purposes. The guide also specifies that strong Christian leaders must subscribe to various views about how to interpret the United States Constitution.

SOURCE: Should Religion Play a Role in Politics? - NYTimes.com

I have observed that nations, which have diversity in culture, generally have legal systems which blend together those values in a sectarian way. But societies which are less tolerant and much less diverse, like many Muslim countries, tend to rely heavily on a single religion (like Sharia Law). And while diversity often leads to advancements, understanding, and alternations to accomodate man and society in the sectarian world, concepts like Sharia Law, which make so very few changes, never evolve and so --- look rather barbaric by advanced western evolutionary standards. Things like honor killings, amputation of limbs, and stoning would not be considered in the more advanced cultures.

The lack of evolution within a society, the lack of intellectual advancements, and together with the concept that not all are created equal, places an enormous power and influence in the hands of the clerics within the religion. And in that concentration of power and influence, comes the tendency to expand and defend that power and influence.

Most Respectfully,
R

Ironically, the Palestinians are probably the most secular and educated Arabs in the ME...Remove them as Israel wishes and their neighbors will be less tolerant of change and more Islamist as the Arab Spring expands.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Ironically, the Palestinians are probably the most secular and educated Arabs in the ME...Remove them as Israel wishes and their neighbors will be less tolerant of change and more Islamist as the Arab Spring expands."

Point taken. Trouble is, the democratic changes which The West hoped to see blossom within the domains of Islam are quickly being displaced by Islamic Militancy and Radicalism and Extremism. If that's an accurate perception, then, the Arab Spring might very well continue, but the power vacuum that it leaves in its wake will continue to be filled by radical theocrats.

I'm not convinced that unloading a modest couple of million mixed secularists upon their neighbors will do any harm in this context nor accelerate the process of Radicalization, and an injection of such folk may even arguably be portrayed as a potential braking mechanism for such Radicalization here and there. ;-)

And, of course, once they're dispersed, the fighting ends - at least the bloody and irksome day-to-day stuff.

 

[pbel]

"...Ironically, the Palestinians are probably the most secular and educated Arabs in the ME...Remove them as Israel wishes and their neighbors will be less tolerant of change and more Islamist as the Arab Spring expands."

Point taken. Trouble is, the democratic changes which The West hoped to see blossom within the domains of Islam are quickly being displaced by Islamic Militancy and Radicalism and Extremism. If that's an accurate perception, then, the Arab Spring might very well continue, but the power vacuum that it leaves in its wake will continue to be filled by radical theocrats.

I'm not convinced that unloading a modest couple of million mixed secularists upon their neighbors will do any harm in this context nor accelerate the process of Radicalization, and an injection of such folk may even arguably be portrayed as a potential braking mechanism for such Radicalization here and there. ;-)

And, of course, once they're dispersed, the fighting ends - at least the bloody and irksome day-to-day stuff.

Human development and the Political Evolution is similar in all cultures and the ME is no different. I believe that radicalization is a natural political process that is also similar. For example the governments of the Christian middle ages were as brutal if not more so than today’s Islamic countries and the political process will too modernize in time where Economic concerns displace religion. When that happens, then these countries will modernize, socially and militarily. That is the future danger that Israeli hegemony will face.

It is a just peace now or a destructive war in the future for Israel with the horde. The
Jewish Holocausts of the past, never forgotten by them, and the aggressions perpetrated today by them on the ME will too be remembered.

That is Human Nature.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Ironically, the Palestinians are probably the most secular and educated Arabs in the ME...Remove them as Israel wishes and their neighbors will be less tolerant of change and more Islamist as the Arab Spring expands."

Point taken. Trouble is, the democratic changes which The West hoped to see blossom within the domains of Islam are quickly being displaced by Islamic Militancy and Radicalism and Extremism. If that's an accurate perception, then, the Arab Spring might very well continue, but the power vacuum that it leaves in its wake will continue to be filled by radical theocrats.

I'm not convinced that unloading a modest couple of million mixed secularists upon their neighbors will do any harm in this context nor accelerate the process of Radicalization, and an injection of such folk may even arguably be portrayed as a potential braking mechanism for such Radicalization here and there. ;-)

And, of course, once they're dispersed, the fighting ends - at least the bloody and irksome day-to-day stuff.

Human development and the Political Evolution is similar in all cultures and the ME is no different. I believe that radicalization is a natural political process that is also similar. For example the governments of the Christian middle ages were as brutal if not more so than today’s Islamic countries and the political process will too modernize in time where Economic concerns displace religion. When that happens, then these countries will modernize, socially and militarily. That is the future danger that Israeli hegemony will face.

It is a just peace now or a destructive war in the future for Israel with the horde. The
Jewish Holocausts of the past, never forgotten by them, and the aggressions perpetrated today by them on the ME will too be remembered.

That is Human Nature.

Oh, I hear you, and I even see some considerable merit in your concerns, although I cannot jump on-side with you in much of this, either.

I once read in a historical narrative that the old Kingdom of Israel kept getting hammered from all sides even back then - 2500 to 3000 years ago - because of its location - and how all the Major Kingdoms and Empires of the region used Israel like a high-speed four-lane highway in order to attack each other... Egyptians, Assyrians, Hittites, Pheonicians, etc.

Even after they eject the last of the Palestinians and firm-up their borders after annexing the West Bank and Gaza, there will never be any peace for them. Ever. That is true in part due to their nature. It is also true in part due to their location. It's not good real estate.

But it's home, and the only one they've got on the face of the entire planet.

The Arab-Muslims of Palestine can easily melt into the surrounding countryside of Jordan and Lebannon and Syria and Iraq and Saudi Arabia and Egypt and the like and find kindred ethnic brethren and language-speakers and co-religionists.

There is no alternative for the Jews, however.

Although they were 'game' to try coexisting with Muslims living amongst them it has not worked out too well and they stand a better chance of surviving longer if they just nudge-out the rest and consolidate their West Bank and Gaza acquisitions and firm-up their borders and look to their defenses and get on with life.

Over the long haul, there will be war after war after war between the Jews and the Arabs and between Judaism and Islam, for generations to come, and we really can't prevent that.

But, after losing 6,000,000 of their own within living memory, they have said "Never again." and "They shall not pass" - and I, for one, believe them, and wish them well, even though the prognosis for long-term survival isn't all that great.

 

[pbel]

Point taken. Trouble is, the democratic changes which The West hoped to see blossom within the domains of Islam are quickly being displaced by Islamic Militancy and Radicalism and Extremism. If that's an accurate perception, then, the Arab Spring might very well continue, but the power vacuum that it leaves in its wake will continue to be filled by radical theocrats.

I'm not convinced that unloading a modest couple of million mixed secularists upon their neighbors will do any harm in this context nor accelerate the process of Radicalization, and an injection of such folk may even arguably be portrayed as a potential braking mechanism for such Radicalization here and there. ;-)

And, of course, once they're dispersed, the fighting ends - at least the bloody and irksome day-to-day stuff.

Human development and the Political Evolution is similar in all cultures and the ME is no different. I believe that radicalization is a natural political process that is also similar. For example the governments of the Christian middle ages were as brutal if not more so than today’s Islamic countries and the political process will too modernize in time where Economic concerns displace religion. When that happens, then these countries will modernize, socially and militarily. That is the future danger that Israeli hegemony will face.

It is a just peace now or a destructive war in the future for Israel with the horde. The
Jewish Holocausts of the past, never forgotten by them, and the aggressions perpetrated today by them on the ME will too be remembered.

That is Human Nature.

Oh, I hear you, and I even see some considerable merit in your concerns, although I cannot jump on-side with you in much of this, either.

I once read in a historical narrative that the old Kingdom of Israel kept getting hammered from all sides even back then - 2500 to 3000 years ago - because of its location - and how all the Major Kingdoms and Empires of the region used Israel like a high-speed four-lane highway in order to attack each other... Egyptians, Assyrians, Hittites, Pheonicians, etc.

Even after they eject the last of the Palestinians and firm-up their borders after annexing the West Bank and Gaza, there will never be any peace for them. Ever. That is true in part due to their nature. It is also true in part due to their location. It's not good real estate.

But it's home, and the only one they've got on the face of the entire planet.

The Arab-Muslims of Palestine can easily melt into the surrounding countryside of Jordan and Lebannon and Syria and Iraq and Saudi Arabia and Egypt and the like and find kindred ethnic brethren and language-speakers and co-religionists.

There is no alternative for the Jews, however.

Although they were 'game' to try coexisting with Muslims living amongst them it has not worked out too well and they stand a better chance of surviving longer if they just nudge-out the rest and consolidate their West Bank and Gaza acquisitions and firm-up their borders and look to their defenses and get on with life.

Over the long haul, there will be war after war after war between the Jews and the Arabs and between Judaism and Islam, for generations to come, and we really can't prevent that.

But, after losing 6,000,000 of their own within living memory, they have said "Never again." and "They shall not pass" - and I, for one, believe them, and wish them well, even though the prognosis for long-term survival isn't all that great.

As my political science sense tells me that the best solution would be a Confederacy between the Palestinians and Israel. The Confederacy would have freedom of movement to each others Holy sites. Sounds impossible, but if it works then Israel might be protected as a state from the horde because of acceptance by two religions spawned by their mutual father Abraham.

Of course, I am an eternal optimist.