"No culture that has ever accepted normalization of same sex relationships..."

[Procrustes Stretched]

Even if it were true, being the first civilization to normalize acceptance (acceptance always existed unofficialy in many areas of many societies) of same-sex relationships should and will eventually be viewed as human progress away from our animalistic past, our begginings where tbe sex urge and reproduction urges were removed from love.

Our ideas of commitment and love were absent any acceptance pre the enlightenment/romantic eras

 

[Unkotare]

The Romans?

Yeah, don't they currently live in Rome?

But none of them can hear because they lent their ears to this guy once and he still hasn't returned them yet!

 

[Unkotare]

I don't remember Edward Gibbon using that as an argument in his monumental "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"..

Monumentally boring, you mean.

 

[Unkotare]

There were 12 ceasars...and I think one of them, maybe 2, died natural deaths.

A lot of them died after eating bad salads.

 

[peach174]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

I don't remember Edward Gibbon using that as an argument in his monumental "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".

Nonetheless, it is irrelevant. Read the OP. Your argument does not conform with reality or history or logic.

According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions in large part due to the gradual loss of civic virtue among its citizens.

 

[koshergrl]

Nazi Germany was viciously anti-gay and is that the type of society we wish to imitate?

"Many founding and high-ranking Nazis were homosexuals.
The evidence indicates that Adolf Hitler himself was a homosexual.
Persecution of homosexuals by the Nazis was for show to deflect from themselves and keep the German public fooled. And only feminine type homosexuals were then persecuted. The "Butch" homosexuals who founded Nazism viewed femmes as lower than heterosexuals, not even men. The persecution of a small percentage of Germany's femme gays was a public relations move to obfuscate the Nazis' own perversity and placate the German masses."

They pretended to hate homosexuals for the same reason they initially pretended to be Christian, and for the same reason they claimed abortion was a method to increase the health of society.

To hide their real intent.

The Homosexual Roots of the Nazi Party, from "The Pink Swastika"

 

[Katzndogz]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

Very true. The value of normalizing same sex relationships has never been passed on to any succeeding culture. Whereas chariots became wagons, homosexuality ends the same way, with the slaughter of gays. Every time. If it had been passed on, we would have had same sex marriage for thousands of years by now.

Likely it is NOT homosexuality itself, which is benign, it is the acceptance of homosexuality that comes as part of a civilization's decline. Gibbon records it as a loss of faith, breakdown of the family, substance abuse, unfettered sexual license all that he summed up as loss of civic virtue. By the time a civilization reaches the point of normalizing same sex relationships, it is already quite sick. It's not a cause, it's a symptom of something very wrong. Once the breakdown has reached the point of acceptance, it might be so far gone that it's impossible to correct. It has to go all the way down to total collapse.

In countries today that have normalized homosexuality for some time are already faltering. They are being overrun and replaced by islam and a people who will not normalize nor value same sex relationships in much the same way as the barbarians sacked Rome did not.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

I don't remember Edward Gibbon using that as an argument in his monumental "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".

Nonetheless, it is irrelevant. Read the OP. Your argument does not conform with reality or history or logic.

Rome -
Marcus Aurelius is quite possibly one of the most enlightened emperors of the Roman Empire. Yet his son, Commodus, was a sensate fool and single-handedly stuck the knife in that killed Rome. That is not to say that Commodus himself caused the fall of Rome entirely- he removed the enlightened level of authority and made the nation, on the whole, sensate from the lowest pleb to the highest government official. His father kept the empire afloat by not being sensate, thus directing his rule towards more "enlightened" goals of the intellectual, wiser sort.

I don't understand your argument. That a corrupt leader was one factor in the many that contributed to the fall of the Roman empire?

It doesn't matter in the end. Rome still stands and is populated by Romans. Homosexuality had nohing to do with the changing of an ancient Mediterranean empire into a member nation of the EU.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

There were 12 ceasars...and I think one of them, maybe 2, died natural deaths.

The Romans were famous for killing thousands of people and animals in the arena as entertainment, and enjoyed a society built completely upon the backs of slaves.

So is this what we're aspiring to emulate?

Exactly. They treated a segment of the population as inferior by enslaving them. Treating a segment of the population as second class citizens or as inferior is harmful to the society as a whole.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I don't remember Edward Gibbon using that as an argument in his monumental "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"..

Monumentally boring, you mean.

I admit that it was difficult to read because of the language, but the content was interesting.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

Very true. The value of normalizing same sex relationships has never been passed on to any succeeding culture. Whereas chariots became wagons, homosexuality ends the same way, with the slaughter of gays. Every time. If it had been passed on, we would have had same sex marriage for thousands of years by now.

Likely it is NOT homosexuality itself, which is benign, it is the acceptance of homosexuality that comes as part of a civilization's decline. Gibbon records it as a loss of faith, breakdown of the family, substance abuse, unfettered sexual license all that he summed up as loss of civic virtue. By the time a civilization reaches the point of normalizing same sex relationships, it is already quite sick. It's not a cause, it's a symptom of something very wrong. Once the breakdown has reached the point of acceptance, it might be so far gone that it's impossible to correct. It has to go all the way down to total collapse.

In countries today that have normalized homosexuality for some time are already faltering. They are being overrun and replaced by islam and a people who will not normalize nor value same sex relationships in much the same way as the barbarians sacked Rome did not.

Suddenly, it is all clear to me! We are destined to falter and fail, while Muslim countries, who do not tolorate homosexuality, will prevail because they remain virtuous!!!!!

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

I don't remember Edward Gibbon using that as an argument in his monumental "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".

Nonetheless, it is irrelevant. Read the OP. Your argument does not conform with reality or history or logic.

According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions in large part due to the gradual loss of civic virtue among its citizens.

Civic virtue has nothing to do with this topic. What Gibons argued was that a corrupt body politic, the deterioration a social institutions, an empire whose boundaries were larger than non-conquest resources could allow, economic stagnation, and many other factors led to the empire's demise. Nonetheless, there are still Romans and there is still a Rome.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Nazi Germany was viciously anti-gay and is that the type of society we wish to imitate?

"Many founding and high-ranking Nazis were homosexuals.
The evidence indicates that Adolf Hitler himself was a homosexual.
Persecution of homosexuals by the Nazis was for show to deflect from themselves and keep the German public fooled. And only feminine type homosexuals were then persecuted. The "Butch" homosexuals who founded Nazism viewed femmes as lower than heterosexuals, not even men. The persecution of a small percentage of Germany's femme gays was a public relations move to obfuscate the Nazis' own perversity and placate the German masses."

They pretended to hate homosexuals for the same reason they initially pretended to be Christian, and for the same reason they claimed abortion was a method to increase the health of society.

To hide their real intent.

The Homosexual Roots of the Nazi Party, from "The Pink Swastika"

Conspiracy theory rubbish.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

Very true. The value of normalizing same sex relationships has never been passed on to any succeeding culture. Whereas chariots became wagons, homosexuality ends the same way, with the slaughter of gays. Every time. If it had been passed on, we would have had same sex marriage for thousands of years by now.

Likely it is NOT homosexuality itself, which is benign, it is the acceptance of homosexuality that comes as part of a civilization's decline. Gibbon records it as a loss of faith, breakdown of the family, substance abuse, unfettered sexual license all that he summed up as loss of civic virtue. By the time a civilization reaches the point of normalizing same sex relationships, it is already quite sick. It's not a cause, it's a symptom of something very wrong. Once the breakdown has reached the point of acceptance, it might be so far gone that it's impossible to correct. It has to go all the way down to total collapse.

In countries today that have normalized homosexuality for some time are already faltering. They are being overrun and replaced by islam and a people who will not normalize nor value same sex relationships in much the same way as the barbarians sacked Rome did not.

The oversimplifications, straw men arguments, baseless speculations, lack of logical or critical reasoning in this argument undermine any point you wished to make.

 

[Katzndogz]

Homosexuality in and of itself cannot be blamed for the fall of a civilization. Homosexuality and alleged "sexual freedom" and "enlightenment" has always been nothing more than a symptom of a nation's downfall. This is because a civilization is always doomed when it becomes sensate and begins to focus on sensationalism- doing what feels good, focusing on the flesh, etc., rather than seeking higher enlightenment.

Look it up. At some point in history, a culture becomes focused entirely on the focused, thinking it better to live for the moment than to live for wisdom. It is at that point that their doom is almost always guaranteed, because they begin to rule and be ruled foolishly. It's self-destruction to a civilization to be sensate.

Very true. The value of normalizing same sex relationships has never been passed on to any succeeding culture. Whereas chariots became wagons, homosexuality ends the same way, with the slaughter of gays. Every time. If it had been passed on, we would have had same sex marriage for thousands of years by now.

Likely it is NOT homosexuality itself, which is benign, it is the acceptance of homosexuality that comes as part of a civilization's decline. Gibbon records it as a loss of faith, breakdown of the family, substance abuse, unfettered sexual license all that he summed up as loss of civic virtue. By the time a civilization reaches the point of normalizing same sex relationships, it is already quite sick. It's not a cause, it's a symptom of something very wrong. Once the breakdown has reached the point of acceptance, it might be so far gone that it's impossible to correct. It has to go all the way down to total collapse.

In countries today that have normalized homosexuality for some time are already faltering. They are being overrun and replaced by islam and a people who will not normalize nor value same sex relationships in much the same way as the barbarians sacked Rome did not.

Suddenly, it is all clear to me! We are destined to falter and fail, while Muslim countries, who do not tolorate homosexuality, will prevail because they remain virtuous!!!!!

Unfortunately that may be true. The very civilized and enlightened Rome, with the most poweful military in the world was sacked by barbarians. Extinguishing that enlightened civilization ushered in the dark ages.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nazi Germany was viciously anti-gay and is that the type of society we wish to imitate?

"Many founding and high-ranking Nazis were homosexuals.
The evidence indicates that Adolf Hitler himself was a homosexual.
Persecution of homosexuals by the Nazis was for show to deflect from themselves and keep the German public fooled. And only feminine type homosexuals were then persecuted. The "Butch" homosexuals who founded Nazism viewed femmes as lower than heterosexuals, not even men. The persecution of a small percentage of Germany's femme gays was a public relations move to obfuscate the Nazis' own perversity and placate the German masses."

They pretended to hate homosexuals for the same reason they initially pretended to be Christian, and for the same reason they claimed abortion was a method to increase the health of society.

To hide their real intent.

The Homosexual Roots of the Nazi Party, from "The Pink Swastika"

Conspiracy theory rubbish.

You can always count on Koshergrl to publish rubbish. It's what she does.

Pink triangle—sexual offenders, mostly homosexual men but rarely rapists, zoophiles and paedophiles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badges

Not surprised to see Koshergrl and Iceman (in particular) defending the fascist swine.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I've seen posted a few times that civilizations or cultures that have ever accepted homosexuality as normal have gone out of existence. Most recently I saw this posted by Katzndogs:

"No culture that has ever accepted normalization of same sex relationships has survived."

Based on that theory, which nation can we guess should be the next to collapse?

Switzerland?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I've seen posted a few times that civilizations or cultures that have ever accepted homosexuality as normal have gone out of existence. Most recently I saw this posted by Katzndogs:

"No culture that has ever accepted normalization of same sex relationships has survived."

Based on that theory, which nation can we guess should be the next to collapse?

Switzerland?

Yup, Geneva just imploded.

 

[rdean]

Republicans think if you just say something, that makes it true. Comes from believing education is for snobs.

 

[Flopper]

I've seen posted a few times that civilizations or cultures that have ever accepted homosexuality as normal have gone out of existence. Most recently I saw this posted by Katzndogs:

"No culture that has ever accepted normalization of same sex relationships has survived."

This is a statement that displays a fundamental ignorance of history, how cultures behave, and human nature.

Let me just begin with history.

No culture which has existed in the past exists today. None. Zero. Some because of genocide, some because of reduced population and assimilation into larger cultures, and all the rest because cultures evolve. Were the Spartans of ancient Greece exterminated because of widespread homosexuality? No. Did all of the Spartans slowly die off because of homosexuality? No. Are there descendents of those homosexual Spartans that exist today? Yes. But Sparta as it existed 2,500 years ago no longer exists because, like all cultures, it evolved. The ancient Greek cultures evolved. The Romans, the ancient Chinese, the Egyptians, the Jews. None of those cultures exist today as they once did.

Ok. Now if we were to change the word culture into civilization to redefine the argument, it is no less flawed. In fact, the argument becomes incoherent. Taking again the Spartans as an example: that the Spartan civilization no longer exists is true; however, neither do the ancient Greek civilization, nor the Persian, the Egyptian, the Roman, the Chinese dynasties, the ancient Americans, nor even the British Empire or any other civilization. Were any of them brought down by homosexuality being culturally accepted? No? Yet there is still a nation called Greece, and there is still Iran, Egypt, China, Rome which burned still stands, and the ancient Americans were destroyed by more powerful empires not homosexuality. The UK is currently one of our closest allies.

What I would guess is the people who actually have this irrational fear - that homosexuality rots cultures and civilizations - really fear that the United States will crumble, either through this so-called homosexual threat or perhaps some other reason. This fear is, needless to say, well founded. At some point the United States won't exist anymore, not like it did. The ancient Egyptians' empire lasted for thousands of years, yet no longer does it exist as it had. It is the nature of cultures to evolve and of civilizations to rise and fall on the tides of history. That which has come before will again be no more.

I think what these people really fear is that the US is leaving them behind. As cultures and civilizations come and go, and more and more history is recorded, people, as a group, have a clearer understanding of history. We've come to see that treating others as second class citizens or as inferior is wrong and detrimental to the well-being of a society as a whole. Our country, as it evolves, is becoming more accepting of minorities. It is also becoming more brown and liberal. In 50 years, if trends continue, white people will be a minority in the US. Christianity or perhaps religiosity may become a feature of only a minority.

History shows that, although it isn't a smooth trajectory, human civilizations are progressing into a more liberal ideology. Its called progress and the term progressive reflects that. Conservatives cling to traditional cultural values, but culture evolves and tradition disappears into the mists of the past. New traditions form and the progressives of today become the conservatives of tomorrow. That is human nature.

To be against the eventual acceptance of homosexuality as a norm for our society is to go against history, to try to stop something that is unstoppable, and only, at best, slows the wheels of progress as they roll over you.

No culture lasts forever. Often people use ancient Rome and Greece as cultures that accepted homosexuality and fell apart however they lasted for thousands of years so I would say we have a ways to go.