New Deal: Another Name For Fascism

Discussion in 'History' started by PoliticalChic, May 26, 2011.

  1. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    From Wolfgang Schivelbusch, "Three New Deals,"

    1. Scholars have discovered that totalitarian philosophies have a social-egalitarian component that adds to the mass popularity of such regimes. Thus, not only National Socialism, with its belief that its racial doctrine entailed the promise of equality for all members of the German people, or ‘Volk,’ but if one can look beyond the repression and terror, the New Deal can be seen as a series of economic misadventures achieved through the force of mass propaganda, and owing its success solely to America’s victory in WWII.

    a. In an insightful analysis, John A. Garraty compared Roosevelt’s New Deal with aspects of the Third Reich: a strong leader; an ideology stressing the nation, the people and the land; state control of economic and social affairs; and the quality and quantity of government propaganda. Garraty, “The New Deal, National Socialism, and the Great Depression,” American Historical Review, vol. 78 (1973) p. 907ff.

    b. Garraty reminds that to compare is not the same as to equate. Yet, many still find Garraty’s analysis too hot to handle.

    2. The defining historical moment for the thinking of the 1930’s was the Great Depression. Many intellectuals decided that there was no particular reason to prefer the political system most closely associated with capitalism, liberal democracy, as opposed to the new systems that promised a brighter future. It is false to believe that the ‘enlightened’ even here in America, were not predisposed toward Fascism, and National Socialism. Many within the liberal camp were ready and willing to save the situation by jettisoning liberal ballast, and proposed imitating various Fascist models.

    a. The many forms of neo-socialism moved right into fascism. A case in point is Mussolini, once an ardent socialist, who created Fascism as a better form of socialism.

    b. In France,Marcel Deat envisioned “a form of society neither socialist nor capitalist,” with a strong centralized state that controlled capital without appropriating it. In England, John Middleton Murray foresaw “a government of national security which achieves the goal of economic separation of property and control…”

    c. The term ‘liberal,’ as used here, refers to economic and political laissez-faire philosophy originating with Adam Smith and the free-trade of Manchester capitalism.

    3. Noting the areas of convergence among the New Deal, Fascism and National Socialism, all three were considered postliberal state-capitalist, or state-socialist systems more closely related to one another than to classic Anglo-French liberalism. Hitler, Mussolini, and Roosevelt were seen as examples of plebiscite-based leadership, autocrats who came to power by varying but legal means, with socially oriented policies of collective consolidation.

    a. Were it not for the revelations of WWII, many of the American Left today would still claim lineage with Fascists and National Socialists.

    History, an important tool in understanding the present.
     
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  2. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    FDR: American Fascist.

    And that's also why the New Deal turned a bad recession into an economy worse than the 7 Biblical Lean Years
     
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  3. Toronado3800
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    Toronado3800 VIP Member

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    Interesting all this switching of Hitler's place on the political spectrum. I don't want him on my side either! Think I'll claim he was Tea Party lol.

    Take into account the feelings of the time. With hindsight it is difficult to do.

    Capitalism looked like a failing institution in post industrial revolution economies.

    America was out of western conquored lands for big government to give away to folks who wanted to escape the barrons. (Pa Ingels, the Union Pafific, and the rest were used to HUGE government land hand outs in exchange for work).

    In other countries where the economy tanked there were real live revolutions.

    FDR brought us from the capitalist extreme, an America I do not think we woukd recognize or like today, back towards the middle.
     
  4. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    Clearly the relationship between the central government and the rest of society changed post the crash of 1929.

    You can call it any word that flaots your boat.

    You can call it SAVING CAPITALISM from itself" if you approve.

    You can call it FASCISM if you hate it (or if you like it and also like facism)

    But whatever you call it, it was what it was.

    It really wasn't until WWII when the government started SERIOULY deficit spending (and did so in a highly organized way that certainly resembles FASCISM) that the economy improved.

    But the thing is, after the war, all those wage and price controls were lifted.

    So the USA war emergency powers facism was temporary.
     
  5. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    This is not hindsight, this is history.

    Actually, and not only from the OP....but from a study of the history of the period, the three leaders were largely on the same page.

    All three agreed on the collective vs. the individual, on 'equality,' on government contol of the economy, on side aspects such as eugenics.

    For example:
    Hitler wrote to the president of the American Eugenics Society to ask for a copy of his“The Case for Sterilization.” (Margaret Sanger and Sterilization) German race science stood on American progressive’s shoulders.


    And, you may be interested in the following:

    The propaganda of the New Deal (“malefactors of great wealth”) to the contrary, FDR simply endeavored to re-create the corporatism of the last war. The New Dealers invited one industry after another to write the codes under which they would be regulated. Even more aggressive, the National Recovery Administration forced industries to fix prices and in other ways to collude with one another: the NRA approved 557 basic and 189 supplementary codes, covering almost 95% of all industrial workers. Goldberg, "Liberal Fascism"

    a. The intention was for big business to get bigger, and the little guy to be squeezed out: for example, the owners of the big chain movie houses wrote the codes that almost ran the independents out of business (even though 13,571 of the 18,321 movie theatres were independently owned). This in the name of ‘efficiency’ and ‘progress.’

    b. New Deal bureaucrats studied Mussolini’s corporatism closely. From “Fortune” magazine: ‘The Corporate state is to Mussolini what the New Deal is to Roosevelt.’(July 1934)

    The change that you mistakenly see as recent, occurred when the horrors of the Nazi and Fascist regimes were uncovered, and so new meme was that there was a left-right separation that you seem to accept.

    In point of fact, an earlier Progressive, Woodrow Wilson, made the United States into the first Fascist nation, well before Mussiolini and Hitler.
    During WW I, under the Progressive Woodrow Wilson, American was a fascist nation.
    a. Had the world’s first modern propaganda ministry
    b. Political prisoners by the thousands were harassed, beaten, spied upon and thrown in jail for simply expressing private opinions.
    c. The national leader accused foreigners and immigrants of injecting treasonous ‘poison’ into the American bloodstream
    d. Newspapers and magazines were closed for criticizing the government
    e. Almost 100,000 government propaganda agents were sent out to whip up support for the regime and the war
    f. College professors imposed loyalty oaths on their colleagues
    g. Nearly a quarter million ‘goons’ were given legal authority to beat and intimidate ‘slackers’ and dissenters
    h. Leading artists and writers dedicated their work to proselytizing for the government.
    http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Classical_Liberalism_vs_Modern_Liberal_Conservatism.pdf p. 9
     
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  6. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    No, no, my friend, even as flaccid as your defense of the New Deal is, it is wrong, and incorrect.

    First, it was not designed for "SAVING CAPITALISM from itself..." but rather to change horses to mount a new economic and political philosophy, as is shown in the OP.

    And, further, you are totally wrong in our claim "wasn't until WWII when the government started SERIOULY deficit spending (and did so in a highly organized way that certainly resembles FASCISM)..."
    Either you have forgotten to read the history of the period, or you are passing the blame from FDR to WWII.

    Here, let me show you, from almost a decade prior to WWII:

    1. Assumng that your narrative is geared toward minimizing the relationship between Roosevelt’s New Deal, and that of Mussolini and of Hitler…and that only due to the exigencies of the Second World War did it become necessary for Roosevelt to assume extreme powers identified with those of the other two regimes, let's see:

    2. In 1933, Fascism was celebrating its eleventh year in power, in Italy, and the election of the National Socialists in Germany represented an unmitigated defeat for liberal democracy in Europe’s largest industrialized nation.

    a. At the beginning of the same month, FDR was inaugurated as President. And before Congress went into recess it granted powers to Roosevelt unprecedented in peacetime. From Congressional hearings, 1973: “Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency.” Emergency Powers Statutes (Senate Report 93-549)

    3. The National Socialists hailed these ‘relief measures’ in ways you will recognize:

    a. May 11, 1933, the Nazi newspaper Volkischer Beobachter, (People’s Observer): “Roosevelt’s Dictatorial Recovery Measures.”

    b. And on January 17, 1934, “We, too, as German National Socialists are looking toward America…” and “Roosevelt’s adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies” comparable to Hitler’s own dictatorial ‘Fuhrerprinzip.’

    c. And “[Roosevelt], too demands that collective good be put before individual self-interest. Many passages in his book ‘Looking Forward’ could have been written by a National Socialist….one can assume that he feels considerable affinity with the National Socialist philosophy.”

    d. The paper also refers to “…the fictional appearance of democracy.”


    I'm going to assume that you are going to reconsider both your claim that war created fascism in the New Deal, and that the fascist strains of the New Deal have ended.
     
  7. Polk
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    Polk Classic

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    Yeah. Damn that FDR, with the falling unemployment and massive increases in output.
     
  8. PoliticalChic
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    PoliticalChic Diamond Member

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    The Dog and the Wolf
    A gaunt Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to meet a House-dog who was passing by. "Ah, Cousin," said the Dog. "I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food regularly given to you?"
    "I would have no objection," said the Wolf, "if I could only get a place."

    "I will easily arrange that for you," said the Dog; "come with me to my master and you shall share my work."

    So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of the Dog's neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that had come about.

    "Oh, it is nothing," said the Dog. "That is only the place where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it."

    "Is that all?" said the Wolf. "Then good-bye to you, Master Dog."

    Better starve free than be a fat slave.


    So, that tie in your avi, ...does it hide the chain?
     
  9. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    You know less than nothing.

    Under Coolidge and Mellon Post WWI unemployment went from 12% to 4% in 18 months. By the time they were done leaving the economy alone you could not time an unemployed person in America,

    And that's before electricity was used widely.

    Hoover was impressed by Stalin and thought he could centrally plan the US economy (For example the reason mattresses come in only four sizes king, queen, full and twin was because Herbert Wonder Boy Hoover wanted it that way) Hoover's central planning started, then FDR's Fascist, Progressive Totalitarian leanings took a bad recession and managed to dwarf the 7 Biblical Lean Years.

    The US economy did not even start to become well again until Hitler invaded Poland
     
  10. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    1933: 24.9, 1934: 21.7%, 1935: 20.1%, 1936: 16.9%, 1937: 14.3%, 1938: 19.0%, 1939: 17.2%, 1940 14.6%

    Here's the data set.

    You need to thank Hitler for invading Poland for pulling US out of the FDR Depression
     

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