Myths of Protectionism

[eagleseven]

If shrinking market size is good (ie protectionism), then this must also apply to the individual, as well.

Why don't we see individuals en masse going "off the grid" and making their own food and consumer goods?

Because it's damned inefficient...we would be reduced to little more than a tribal existence. No matter how hard I practice, I cannot mass-produce solar cells from scratch in my back yard...nor can I make homemade CAT-scanners.

Self-Sufficiency = Poverty

 

[Toro]

I read the entire article, not saying the premise is wrong, but the author relied mostly on, just trust me its a myth type argument. There was no hardcore proof to any of his assertions. I would like more evidence, proof and arguments behind what he is asserting!

His argument is based on empirical study, not myths. His post was an easy to read, brief overview on a blog. If you want a serious overview, download his papers.

 

[GHook93]

I read the entire article, not saying the premise is wrong, but the author relied mostly on, just trust me its a myth type argument. There was no hardcore proof to any of his assertions. I would like more evidence, proof and arguments behind what he is asserting!

His argument is based on empirical study, not myths. His post was an easy to read, brief overview on a blog. If you want a serious overview, download his papers.

Were can you download it?

His one argument lacks sense, when he says a x-ray is sent to India, but a job was not lost there. OK, what about the call centers, R & D and other highly skilled white collar jobs going to India? With China, they might produce the small consumer products, but the high paying designers, engineers and think tank people remained in America! With India, they designers, engineers and white collar R & D people are being outsourced to India. These are high paying highly skilled jobs that are flying overseas. So in the end, what good are low cost goods if we outsource:
(1) Manufacturing.
(2) R & D
(3) Call Centers (that hire A LOT of people to living wages)
(4) Engineers
(5) Basic service jobs

Engineers are increasingly becoming a less popular major in college, since most are finding they can't get work because of low demand! Sorry, but there must be a happy median between protectionism and free trade and I don't buy that neither can or should be used to some degree!

 

[Toro]

Jagdish N. Bhagwati, University Professor

 

[Ravi]

Sorry, but there must be a happy median between protectionism and free trade and I don't buy that neither can or should be used to some degree!

I agree.

 

[Oddball]

If shrinking market size is good (ie protectionism), then this must also apply to the individual, as well.

Why don't we see individuals en masse going "off the grid" and making their own food and consumer goods?

Because it's damned inefficient...we would be reduced to little more than a tribal existence. No matter how hard I practice, I cannot mass-produce solar cells from scratch in my back yard...nor can I make homemade CAT-scanners.

Self-Sufficiency = Poverty

See: The Amish.

 

[JBeukema]

Outsourcing has been an enormous boon to the poor in the third world.

Tell that to Fatema Akter.

Fair Trade is an organized social movement and market-based approach that aims to help producers in developing countries obtain better trading conditions and promote sustainability. The movement advocates the payment of a higher price to producers as well as social and environmental standards. It focuses in particular on exports from developing countries to developed countries, most notably handicrafts, coffee, cocoa, sugar, tea, bananas, honey, cotton, wine, fresh fruit, chocolate, flowers and gold.[1]

Fair trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


'Outsourcing' in the third world ('developing ountries') is Orwellian Newspeak for neocolonialism and sweatshops, for the very worst aspects of unbridled Capitalism.

Trade does not replace innovation. Protectionism discourages innovation because it decreases competition and insulates companies within their home markets.

Protectionism is not absolute in most instances and very few advocate ending all foreign trade. More common are those like me who advocate the position you quoted.

 

[JBeukema]

If shrinking market size is good (ie protectionism), then this must also apply to the individual, as well.

Why don't we see individuals en masse going "off the grid" and making their own food and consumer goods?

Because it's damned inefficient...we would be reduced to little more than a tribal existence. No matter how hard I practice, I cannot mass-produce solar cells from scratch in my back yard...nor can I make homemade CAT-scanners.

Self-Sufficiency = Poverty

You do realize that the USA is comparable in size and resources to thew whole of Western Europe and not to a single man in a condo, right?

 

[editec]

Corporatist facism is the last way we need to go. Individual power and individual reward is the best way to prosperity for all.

Sadly sans fair and effective government one tends to lead to the other.

The end game of pure libertarian capitalism is monarchy.

And monarchy is basically fascism with a crown.

There's the rub, Baruch.

Nobody sane argues that the government should make every decision, but then too, nobody sane believes that absolute freedom of the individual leads to anything but anarchy, either.

The problem is that creating governments leads to giving some group advantages which they parley into the kind of crap that we are ALL complaining about right now.


It doesn't matter what noble rhtetoric they spew, bothy parties are basically corrupted on behalf of their insiders.

There is no perfect government (or lack one either) because people (some of them at least, most of them, I suspect) are self serving assholes.

 

[Oddball]

Corporatist facism is the last way we need to go. Individual power and individual reward is the best way to prosperity for all.

Sadly sans fair and effective government one tends to lead to the other.

The end game of pure libertarian capitalism is monarchy.

And monarchy is basically fascism with a crown.

There's the rub, Baruch.

Nobody sane argues that the government should make every decision, but then too, nobody sane believes that absolute freedom of the individual leads to anything but anarchy, either.

That's a whooole lotta strawmen there, especially for you.

Who told you all that stuff?

 

[eagleseven]

Self-Sufficiency = Poverty

You do realize that the USA is comparable in size and resources to thew whole of Western Europe and not to a single man in a condo, right?

Does size change the fundamental principles of economics?

Protectionism retards growth...regardless if we are discussing a family, a village, a metropolis, a nation, a planet, or an intergalactic civilization.

The end game of pure libertarian capitalism is monarchy.

 

[Paulie]

The end game of pure libertarian capitalism is monarchy.

How do you figure this?

In a libertarian society, one ruling over all would never be tolerated.

There are too many people who don't understand political ideologies around here.

I think libertarianism is the most misunderstood of them all.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

It's fascism, and it has nothing to do with any particular party that may be in power.

We've been living with it for DECADES.

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

Only when the voters of BOTH parties come to realize this, is when things will actually change.

Mike is in the house!!!

 

[Oddball]

Can we outsource the both of you losers to India?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Protectionist Myths - Project Syndicate

First Krugman and now ...

Jagdish Bhagwati, University Professor at Columbia University and Senior Fellow in International Economics at the Council on Foreign Relations, is completing a book entitled Terrified by Trade: How to Contain Protectionism Today.

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Isn't it wonderful to see Dude, the house economist, lecture all these so-called economic experts?

Krugman. I don't care what awards he has won. I see the guy periodically on Meet the Press and he is an agenda driven ideologue of the shifty eyed variety. I don't claim to be an economist and I've never played one on TV, but everytime he speaks, I think to myself, "what a fucking clueless moron".

really? I always wonder what makes people so jealous and hateful when they see their betters on television. maybe you can help?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The late Professor Milton Friedman said, "Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." Some people justify their calls for protectionism by claiming that they're for free trade but fair trade. That's nonsense. Think about it: When I purchased my Lexus from a Japanese producer, through an intermediary, I received what I wanted. The Japanese producer received what he wanted. In my book, that's a fair trade.

Thanks for lewtting us know Friedman doens't know what Fair Trade is and had to resort to a strawman. Not surprising you'd parrot such things.

Dude quoting Uncle Milt, while he denounces the use of quotes from other economists?

---

American free market economics guru Milton Friedman was wrong to assert that companies should focus on shareholder value above all other considerations, HSBC chairman Stephen Green declared.

Milton Friedman got it wrong on profit being the only aim, HSBC chief Green argues - Telegraph
---

 

[Oddball]

Wow...You're a full-throttle non sequitur and red herring machine tonight, aren't you?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Wow...You're a full-throttle non sequitur and red herring machine tonight, aren't you?

we aim to please

 

[Toro]

Outsourcing has been an enormous boon to the poor in the third world.

Tell that to Fatema Akter.

Fair Trade is an organized social movement and market-based approach that aims to help producers in developing countries obtain better trading conditions and promote sustainability. The movement advocates the payment of a higher price to producers as well as social and environmental standards. It focuses in particular on exports from developing countries to developed countries, most notably handicrafts, coffee, cocoa, sugar, tea, bananas, honey, cotton, wine, fresh fruit, chocolate, flowers and gold.[1]

Fair trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, I've read about Fair Trade for a long time. I'll post some stuff on it later. It is often distortionary and discriminatory against many of the people it purports to help.

'Outsourcing' in the third world ('developing ountries') is Orwellian Newspeak for neocolonialism and sweatshops, for the very worst aspects of unbridled Capitalism.

Outsourcing provides better jobs than people currently have. There is a reason why literally a hundred million Chinese flocked from the rural areas to the manufacturing zones over the past 20 years - because the wages they were paid in the factories were much higher than what they were paid on the farm, often 3x-4x higher. Plus, they were receiving a paycheck as opposed to living at the mercy of the weather in subsistence farming economies. This isn't like the Industrial Revolution where peasants were often kicked off farms that were turned into pastoral land and had no other options. This is one of the largest migrations in human history as people have voluntarily sought better lives. The past 30 years have seen one of the greatest declines in absolute poverty in the word, ever, and a huge part of it is because of offshoring.

I can post empirical evidence later.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/67602-sweatshops-benefit-the-poor.html

 

[Oddball]

Do-gooder populist twirps like JBolshevik never seem to ponder the fact that people who work in those "sweat shops" were doing something prior to that, which made working in the "sweat shop" look like a viable option.