My Old Kentucky Home

[Asclepias]

"Darkie" certainly was not meant to be a consideration of equality. It's use was inherent unconscious racism.

According to what? All it has is a reference to skin color. In itself it makes no statement about what that skin color might mean, and the song doesn't spell that out either (after all it's not the focus).

What exactly was the emotional baggage of the term "darky" in 1852 when it was written? I don't know a source to find that out but I'd be fascinated to see one.

I agree to an extent.

The term African American wasn't around back then, and it's hard to gauge the racism that may, or may not have been present, at that time within the utterance of the term.

But once again, in 1853, almost nobody, anywhere in America held the belief that blacks weren't inferior. Including most blacks

Largely true, although the Underground Railroad and the Abolitionist Movement were going on at the time so it might be a stretch to say "almost nobody".

But the point remains, in the context of this song lyric there's no such sentiment expressed, no wish of ill upon "darkies", etc. If there were, it would count as racism. So the only question remaining is whether the term "darky" -- in itself, standing alone -- was a term of disparagement, or whether it was simply neutral, in 1852.

The use of the term "darkie" was racist. Was it KKK level virulent racism? Probably not but it was always racist especially back in 1852.

And again -- what's your source for the vernacular of 1852? We're going in circles here.

My ancestors. I posted that in my reply to you the first time.

 

[Asclepias]

In the 1800's....almost everyone thought blacks were inferior to whites....

...as a result, any term used to identify a black person included racism. Just the thought of blacks included racism.

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

 

[Bonzi]

Here's a excerpt from the Disney Movie (Song of the South):

I endured that whole video and I'm at a loss to even guess where the "racism" might be. But while I know the song I'm not familiar with the film.

Wiki sez:

The film's depiction of black former slaves, and of race relations in Reconstruction-Era Georgia, has been controversial since its original release, with a number of critics — at the time of its release and in later decades — describing it as racist.[4] Consequently it has never been released in its entirety on home video in the United States.[5]
​

Apparently one would have to sit through an entire Disney film --- the cinematic equivalent of root canal -- to make a judgment on the plot. So absent that background, I have no idea.

It's been a while since I've seen it.... I'll see if I can come up with something. I may even have a VHS of it somewhere....

 

[rightwinger]

In the 1800's....almost everyone thought blacks were inferior to whites....

...as a result, any term used to identify a black person included racism. Just the thought of blacks included racism.

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

 

[Bonzi]

You probably haven’t seen Disney’s 1946 film Song of the South, but you’ve definitely heard it. Its signature song, “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah,” won a 1947 Academy Award, and the Br’er Rabbit animation sequences have been used in several TV spots and Disney specials over the years. But there’s no denying the fact that by today’s standards, the film is rather racist. Set in the post–Civil War South, the movie — in which a former slave named Uncle Remus regales children with amusing stories — depicts an offensively “idyllic” master-slave relationship, as the NAACP once described it. Adam Clayton Powell Jr. considered the feature’s depictions of happy slaves an “insult to American minorities.” Disney has declined to release the film on video in the U.S., fearing an outcry over the crude stereotypes.

Song of the South | Top 10 Disney Controversies | TIME.com

 

[Asclepias]

In the 1800's....almost everyone thought blacks were inferior to whites....

...as a result, any term used to identify a black person included racism. Just the thought of blacks included racism.

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

 

[Asclepias]

You probably haven’t seen Disney’s 1946 film Song of the South, but you’ve definitely heard it. Its signature song, “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah,” won a 1947 Academy Award, and the Br’er Rabbit animation sequences have been used in several TV spots and Disney specials over the years. But there’s no denying the fact that by today’s standards, the film is rather racist. Set in the post–Civil War South, the movie — in which a former slave named Uncle Remus regales children with amusing stories — depicts an offensively “idyllic” master-slave relationship, as the NAACP once described it. Adam Clayton Powell Jr. considered the feature’s depictions of happy slaves an “insult to American minorities.” Disney has declined to release the film on video in the U.S., fearing an outcry over the crude stereotypes.

Song of the South | Top 10 Disney Controversies | TIME.com

That makes sense now. Kinda like the Duck dynasty comment about how happy Blacks were picking cotton.

 

[Bonzi]

You probably haven’t seen Disney’s 1946 film Song of the South, but you’ve definitely heard it. Its signature song, “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah,” won a 1947 Academy Award, and the Br’er Rabbit animation sequences have been used in several TV spots and Disney specials over the years. But there’s no denying the fact that by today’s standards, the film is rather racist. Set in the post–Civil War South, the movie — in which a former slave named Uncle Remus regales children with amusing stories — depicts an offensively “idyllic” master-slave relationship, as the NAACP once described it. Adam Clayton Powell Jr. considered the feature’s depictions of happy slaves an “insult to American minorities.” Disney has declined to release the film on video in the U.S., fearing an outcry over the crude stereotypes.

Song of the South | Top 10 Disney Controversies | TIME.com

That makes sense now. Kinda like the Duck dynasty comment about how happy Blacks were picking cotton.

What? I had not heard that!
But I did see the episode where the dad was mocking a gay photographer.....

 

[Asclepias]

You probably haven’t seen Disney’s 1946 film Song of the South, but you’ve definitely heard it. Its signature song, “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah,” won a 1947 Academy Award, and the Br’er Rabbit animation sequences have been used in several TV spots and Disney specials over the years. But there’s no denying the fact that by today’s standards, the film is rather racist. Set in the post–Civil War South, the movie — in which a former slave named Uncle Remus regales children with amusing stories — depicts an offensively “idyllic” master-slave relationship, as the NAACP once described it. Adam Clayton Powell Jr. considered the feature’s depictions of happy slaves an “insult to American minorities.” Disney has declined to release the film on video in the U.S., fearing an outcry over the crude stereotypes.

Song of the South | Top 10 Disney Controversies | TIME.com

That makes sense now. Kinda like the Duck dynasty comment about how happy Blacks were picking cotton.

What? I had not heard that!
But I did see the episode where the dad was mocking a gay photographer.....

 

[rightwinger]

In the 1800's....almost everyone thought blacks were inferior to whites....

...as a result, any term used to identify a black person included racism. Just the thought of blacks included racism.

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

 

[Asclepias]

In the 1800's....almost everyone thought blacks were inferior to whites....

...as a result, any term used to identify a black person included racism. Just the thought of blacks included racism.

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

 

[rightwinger]

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

I always thought it was James Brown

 

[Asclepias]

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

I always thought it was James Brown

I did too until I researched it. MLK was the first to use it. James Brown just put it in a song.



My mom backed up what you and Pogo said about being called Black.

 

[Pogo]

According to what? All it has is a reference to skin color. In itself it makes no statement about what that skin color might mean, and the song doesn't spell that out either (after all it's not the focus).

What exactly was the emotional baggage of the term "darky" in 1852 when it was written? I don't know a source to find that out but I'd be fascinated to see one.

I agree to an extent.

The term African American wasn't around back then, and it's hard to gauge the racism that may, or may not have been present, at that time within the utterance of the term.

But once again, in 1853, almost nobody, anywhere in America held the belief that blacks weren't inferior. Including most blacks

Largely true, although the Underground Railroad and the Abolitionist Movement were going on at the time so it might be a stretch to say "almost nobody".

But the point remains, in the context of this song lyric there's no such sentiment expressed, no wish of ill upon "darkies", etc. If there were, it would count as racism. So the only question remaining is whether the term "darky" -- in itself, standing alone -- was a term of disparagement, or whether it was simply neutral, in 1852.

The use of the term "darkie" was racist. Was it KKK level virulent racism? Probably not but it was always racist especially back in 1852.

And again -- what's your source for the vernacular of 1852? We're going in circles here.

My ancestors. I posted that in my reply to you the first time.

You have ancestors that are 170 years old?

 

[Rotagilla]

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

oh yes...the (certified) plagiarist, fake "reverend" with the fake name who was a serial philanderer while posing as a family man and a "man of god"...yeah...good ol' micheal king...and you actually care about something he supposedly said? comical...

 

[Asclepias]

I agree to an extent.

The term African American wasn't around back then, and it's hard to gauge the racism that may, or may not have been present, at that time within the utterance of the term.

But once again, in 1853, almost nobody, anywhere in America held the belief that blacks weren't inferior. Including most blacks

Largely true, although the Underground Railroad and the Abolitionist Movement were going on at the time so it might be a stretch to say "almost nobody".

But the point remains, in the context of this song lyric there's no such sentiment expressed, no wish of ill upon "darkies", etc. If there were, it would count as racism. So the only question remaining is whether the term "darky" -- in itself, standing alone -- was a term of disparagement, or whether it was simply neutral, in 1852.

The use of the term "darkie" was racist. Was it KKK level virulent racism? Probably not but it was always racist especially back in 1852.

And again -- what's your source for the vernacular of 1852? We're going in circles here.

My ancestors. I posted that in my reply to you the first time.

You have ancestors that are 170 years old?

Yes. Actually even older.

 

[Pogo]

That doesn't follow. If there's an emotionally charged issue, the language needs its disparaging terms but also needs its neutral terms.

"Negro" in say, 1960 was a neutral term. Just specified the race and that was it. "Black" at the same time was insulting, possibly for being too direct. The former fell into disuse, to the point where today if someone uses it he's deliberately being a gadfly or worse. The latter was reclaimed by the Black community and turned into a term of pride, essentially the linguistic antidote. Today it's neutral.

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

Rightwinger recalls it exactly the same as I do (we must be around the same age).

The fact that MLK, and James Brown and various other activists of the time saw a need to associate "pride" with the word "black" demonstrates that before that point that association was not common. What they did in redefining the term was revolutionary. It was specifically designed to throw off the negative connotations and inspire self-respect.

So again, just another example of how such terms can change in far less time than 163 years.

"Colored" I hadn't thought of but that used to be a neutral term too, now it's extinct. That one always struck me weird -- if those people are "colored", what are the other people? Transparent?

 

[Pogo]

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

oh yes...the (certified) plagiarist, fake "reverend" with the fake name who was a serial philanderer while posing as a family man and a "man of god"...yeah...good ol' micheal king...and you actually care about something he supposedly said? comical...

Dafuck's your problem dood? We're having a productive discussion here, don't be coming in fucking it up.

This ain't a thread about MLK anyway. Find something constructive to add or piss off.

 

[Asclepias]

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

Rightwinger recalls it exactly the same as I do (we must be around the same age).

The fact that MLK, and James Brown and various other activists of the time saw a need to associate "pride" with the word "black" demonstrates that before that point that association was not common. What they did in redefining the term was revolutionary. It was specifically designed to throw off the negative connotations and inspire self-respect.

So again, just another example of how such terms can change in far less time than 163 years.

"Colored" I hadn't thought of but that used to be a neutral term too, now it's extinct. That one always struck me weird -- if those people are "colored", what are the other people? Transparent?

My mom said you guys are correct. At least in the south Black people hated being called Black by whites. My father is from the north so he doesnt remember it being an issue.

 

[rightwinger]

I've never heard of "Black" being a term considered insulting.

I grew up in the late 50s and early 60s. At the time, I was told to use the term Negro or Colored
Calling them black was considered demeaning

My great grandpa always referred to Black people as either Black or colored. I know a lady that was one of the protesters that did the sit ins in the south and she is the same way. Thats odd because I have never heard of it being derogatory.

I'm just going on my memories from 50 years ago
I don't recall ever calling someone black until around 1968

At that time, the Civil Rights act had passed and the black power movement was in full steam. I'm black and I'm proud became the rallying cry. Black was no longer something to be ashamed of

The terms negro and colored seemed to remind people of Jim Crow and fell out of favor. Black became the preferred term

Is it possible that non racist whites thought it (Black) was derogatory? Little tidbit. MLK is the one that started that slogan about being Black and proud.

oh yes...the (certified) plagiarist, fake "reverend" with the fake name who was a serial philanderer while posing as a family man and a "man of god"...yeah...good ol' micheal king...and you actually care about something he supposedly said? comical...