More on the flotilla

[ekrem]

(...)

Where do you see it all ending up?

In increasing rejection of everything American. The real issue here isn't Israel, but policies in Washington which shape US's foreign policy to this region.
There is the aspect of regionalism, people living in the same region will have more interest in developments of this region then people living far away, for such people it is just simply news.

So, the question needs to be asked how much of the whole Palestine issue from the Palestinian point-of-view is reaching the American public. It is probably zero, as the Palestinians don't have the machinery like the Israelians do have to reach American households. We have to accept, that within the USA in terms of public discourse (media is influencing this) the Israelians have monopoly. And in Congress anyway.

So the Americans don't see the same pictures like we do on our Television through our journalists which do their field work on ground in Palestine. Just like they did in this thread, they will post a picture of a shopping-mall in Gaza and try to implant that picture in American's heads which read these kind of threads and who are not delivered pictures by objective journalism.

You can call me Anti-Semite, whatever you want I don't give a fuck:
The US has been hi-jacked when it comes to its policy to the Middle-East and in the backrooms of Washington there are enough people to ensure, that this will stay so.
You either adapt to the system or you get booted out of the system. See Obama in election-campaign and when becoming president. 2 different jackets.

Now to the answer of your original question, where all this will end up.
Israel is only a benefiter of current circumstances. As we already identified, the circumstances in USA within the power-balance of Washington won't change , but at least the capability of the USA to project its influence is decreasing. The economic problems in USA constitute maybe 10% of this decrease in power-projection capability. The other 90% is relative power-decrease of USA simply caused by other nations in this world gaining in strength at a fast pace, although this development won't bring any solution for the Palestinians in the imminent years. It is just a trend which would result in the USA going bankrupt if it wants to play Empire on impact levels like for example in the Bill Clinton years as the USA would have to divert more ressources to nullify the impact of the other powers that are on ascendance path and which are putting a lot of effort ($) into their own power-projection capability. The US already has lost, so to speak, if it wants to play that kind of Empire. There is a limit to financing Empire through debt and containing those powers who finance their ascendance on economic success within their own countries.

From the experience of the past decades the other obstacle has been identified as the Arab regimes which are, simply put, part of the current US empire. Those countries, many of them monarchies, are colonial products (British+French) and rely to 100% on whoever is/are the Superpower/s of their times to secure their survival. Those governments didn't pass their final test, which is their own population.

Likewise, organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah are products of their times, they have an expiration date. These organizations' base of existence is the non-existence of everyone else in the region, who have been bribed, divided and ruled by colonial or hegemonic countries leaving no one left to stand up for the Palestinians except these local resistance groups. So these organizations have organized themselves into local resistance with whomever wants to exploit them, playing exactly that game of exploitation.
None of the solutions of the last decades have worked. The only solutions are:
- Containing Israel into the 1967 borders
- De-Nuclearization of this region (Israel)

None of these solutions will work together with the Americans, under their guidance.
Just like it was in the last decades, status-quo or chaos whatever you may call it, so it will continue to be for the next years.

As an endnote:
On human-to-human relations between the Americans and the Muslims of the Middle-East this means, that in the psyche of the next generations populating this area there will continue to be a non-bridgeable divide. The Americans will simply be remembered by their actions. None of the actions of the Americans has benefited the people of this region maybe except for the local merchants around the US military bases who supply the basic daily needs of the American troops.
The US has brought War and the human-rights definition of the Brit's+French's Dictators exactly suiting also the US's designs for this region.

When these 2 above described solutions will come, has off course room for debate.
It depends on how fast the US Empire is challenged in other parts of this world.
So, the BEST thing you can do is systematically buy Brazil, British, Chinese, Indian, Mexican, Russian, Turkish as a replacement for American products.
Every bought counts as it will accelerate bringing change.

 

[Ropey]

(...)

Where do you see it all ending up?

In increasing rejection of everything American. The real issue here isn't Israel, but policies in Washington which shape US's foreign policy to this region.
There is the aspect of regionalism, people living in the same region will have more interest in developments of this region then people living far away, for such people it is just simply news.

So, the question needs to be asked how much of the whole Palestine issue from the Palestinian point-of-view is reaching the American public. It is probably zero, as the Palestinians don't have the machinery like the Israelians do have to reach American households. We have to accept, that within the USA in terms of public discourse (media is influencing this) the Israelians have monopoly. And in Congress anyway.

So the Americans don't see the same pictures like we do on our Television through our journalists which do their field work on ground in Palestine. Just like they did in this thread, they will post a picture of a shopping-mall in Gaza and try to implant that picture in American's heads which read these kind of threads and who are not delivered pictures by objective journalism.

You can call me Anti-Semite, whatever you want I don't give a fuck:
The US has been hi-jacked when it comes to its policy to the Middle-East and in the backrooms of Washington there are enough people to ensure, that this will stay so.
You either adapt to the system or you get booted out of the system. See Obama in election-campaign and when becoming president. 2 different jackets.

Now to the answer of your original question, where all this will end up.
Israel is only a benefiter of current circumstances. As we already identified, the circumstances in USA within the power-balance of Washington won't change , but at least the capability of the USA to project its influence is decreasing. The economic problems in USA constitute maybe 10% of this decrease in power-projection capability. The other 90% is relative power-decrease of USA simply caused by other nations in this world gaining in strength at a fast pace, although this development won't bring any solution for the Palestinians in the imminent years. It is just a trend which would result in the USA going bankrupt if it wants to play Empire on impact levels like for example in the Bill Clinton years as the USA would have to divert more ressources to nullify the impact of the other powers that are on ascendance path and which are putting a lot of effort ($) into their own power-projection capability. The US already has lost, so to speak, if it wants to play that kind of Empire. There is a limit to financing Empire through debt and containing those powers who finance their ascendance on economic success within their own countries.

From the experience of the past decades the other obstacle has been identified as the Arab regimes which are, simply put, part of the current US empire. Those countries, many of them monarchies, are colonial products (British+French) and rely to 100% on whoever is/are the Superpower/s of their times to secure their survival. Those governments didn't pass their final test, which is their own population.

Likewise, organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah are products of their times, they have an expiration date. These organizations' base of existence is the non-existence of everyone else in the region, who have been bribed, divided and ruled by colonial or hegemonic countries leaving no one left to stand up for the Palestinians except these local resistance groups. So these organizations have organized themselves into local resistance with whomever wants to exploit them, playing exactly that game of exploitation.
None of the solutions of the last decades have worked. The only solutions are:
- Containing Israel into the 1967 borders
- De-Nuclearization of this region (Israel)

None of these solutions will work together with the Americans, under their guidance.
Just like it was in the last decades, status-quo or chaos whatever you may call it, so it will continue to be for the next years.

As an endnote:
On human-to-human relations between the Americans and the Muslims of the Middle-East this means, that in the psyche of the next generations populating this area there will continue to be a non-bridgeable divide. The Americans will simply be remembered by their actions. None of the actions of the Americans has benefited the people of this region maybe except for the local merchants around the US military bases who supply the basic daily needs of the American troops.
The US has brought War and the human-rights definition of the Brit's+French's Dictators exactly suiting also the US's designs for this region.

When these 2 above described solutions will come, has off course room for debate.
It depends on how fast the US Empire is challenged in other parts of this world.
So, the BEST thing you can do is systematically buy Brazil, British, Chinese, Indian, Mexican, Russian, Turkish as a replacement for American products.
Every bought counts as it will accelerate bringing change.

I see no anti-semitism in your response. I disagree with some future premises because they depend on America slowly declining.

I say give ten or twenty years before coming to that conclusion.

American ingenuity is removed from your calculus. You continue an extrapolation which is all well and nice as long as nothing changes and what you say continues without any of the changes that could easily throw a spanner in your view.

Or my view. Or anyone's future prognostications.

It's simply future opinion, based on present facts, and I see no anti-semitism. I wonder why you mentioned it even.

I disagree with much of your view regarding the US being hijacked by Middle Eastern concerns.

I put forward that the American Middle Eastern Oil Hegemony which controls, distributes, insures, protects, refines, etc. is the reason America is in the Middle East.

It's not hijacked. America came in and stood to Russia when it was supporting Egypt. It went to Defcon 3 worldwide over this and Defcon 2 in the Middle Eastern Zone.

Russia left and no one has been there but America since. This was the beginning of the American Hegemony when they stood OPEC to the call and both Opec and Russia declined.

Russia could not believe that America would go nuclear over a proxy. The Hegemony was not yet understood by Russia.

It was later on and is now. They would love to see America leave.

No, I see holes all over your views in a historical perspective. I do agree that it is status quo for a few years.

Israel is working on some things. Iran is working on some things and we will see what comes of it when the future comes.

Most other crystal ball readers are wrong as well. Most of them are scams.

 

[ekrem]

(...)

It's no crystal-ball reading.
It's the understanding, that it is the economy that defines the so-called big-stick with which countries deal with each other in this world.

China set to be No. 1 in 2018 by PPP rank: PwC - People's Daily Online
http://www.pwc.com/en_GX/gx/world-2050/pdf/world-in-2050-jan-2011.pdf


World economy has changed and is still changing, not to the benefit of US Empire.
You can't deny this fact and ridiculate this by saying it is crystal-ball reading.
There will be more then just the US's big-stick around, in fact China is already a big-stick.
It's a smart policy of them:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Besides China which is already a world-power, there are other countries in the classification of regional-power or middle-power whose economic growth is much faster then the US's growth, this diminishes the weight of the US power in relative terms, independent from the domestic developments within the USA (economy).

The small relative (%) growth of the US economy still results in big absolute ($) growth due to the sheer size of the US economy. But that absolute growth of the US economy doesn't equal China's growth.
Now add the yearly growth of additional countries like Brazil, India, Russia etc. into this picture and equate growth with adding new capabilities to the existing portfolio of power-projection, be it new embassies, raising foreign-aid, signing military deals.
And the creation of these new capabilities in these countries occur by stagnant or sinking debt-levels where in case of the USA the debt level is rising.

For the US Empire just to preserve/conserve it's yearly power-basis it has to raise its spendings for power-projection to an unsustainable level. The classical debt-depth cycle of world-powers in history who couldn't interpret the signs of the time and were in the illusion of eternal grandeur.

 

[Ropey]

It's no crystal-ball reading.
It's the understanding, that it is the economy that defines the so-called big-stick with which countries deal with each other in this world.

If the economists get the future of a few years ahead wrong, I will think that decades are even more problematic. So, pretend to watch trends of the past and present and opine the future.

It's still no more than that. An opinion. There are many more than yours and we are still in the present. Most learned people when asked to give long term future analysis predicate their statements with quite a bit of disclaimer. You simply give two scenarios and say it must be one or the other and the only major factor is time.

World economy has changed and is still changing, not to the benefit of US Empire.
You can't deny this fact and ridiculate this by saying it is crystal-ball reading.
There will be more then just the US's big-stick around, in fact China is already a big-stick.
It's a smart policy of them:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Besides China which is already a world-power, there are other countries in the classification of regional-power or middle-power whose economic growth is much faster then the US's growth, this diminishes the weight of the US power in relative terms, independent from the domestic developments within the USA (economy).

The small relative (%) growth of the US economy still results in big absolute ($) growth due to the sheer size of the US economy. But that absolute growth of the US economy doesn't equal China's growth.
Now add the yearly growth of additional countries like Brazil, India, Russia etc. into this picture and equate growth with adding new capabilities to the existing portfolio of power-projection, be it new embassies, raising foreign-aid, signing military deals.
And the creation of these new capabilities in these countries occur by stagnant or sinking debt-levels where in case of the USA the debt level is rising.

World economy is always changing. China can not invent a decent engine to save their lives. They get by with stealing, copying and using their work base as slaves to society.

Yes, you can see them as a serious danger. There are many more who do not. Again. Opinion on the future.

For the US Empire just to preserve/conserve it's yearly power-basis it has to raise its spendings for power-projection to an unsustainable level. The classical debt-depth cycle of world-powers in history who couldn't interpret the signs of the time and were in the illusion of eternal grandeur.

America does not need to preserve anything yet and I put forward that they move ahead so do not look to preservation. America is an innovator and when push comes to shove, one major invention as a cure for cancer. One major power conversion theory in cold fusion found. I could go on and on.

All would change your view. And none of it matters worth a ding dong to the reality which is what will happen.

Nice stuff. I can get better, thanks though.

 

[ekrem]

(...) China can not invent a decent engine to save their lives. They get by with stealing, copying and using their work base as slaves to society.(...)

You should consult 'rdean' for data on yearly Chinese university graduates.
Talking China small maybe works in the US in-front of American audience in romantic dreams of the past.
Sooner or later, you will also wake up.

 

[Ropey]

I will wake up when China actually begins to invent rather than steal. Until then, I have no worry as they will be a mile short and a dollar richer.

 

[Ropey]

(...) China can not invent a decent engine to save their lives. They get by with stealing, copying and using their work base as slaves to society.(...)

You should consult 'rdean' for data on yearly Chinese university graduates.
Talking China small maybe works in the US in-front of American audience in romantic dreams of the past.
Sooner or later, you will also wake up.

And they still can not design a decent engine both in civic or military. I'll start worrying once they don't have to buy all their engines (and much more militarily speaking) from Russia.

How many graduates they turn out is just like how many knock offs of rolex watches they churn out. Turkey turns out a lot of Doctors and guess what? They must be retested when they emigrate to in Canada. India? Sorry, no? Pakistan Yes. Turkey? Yes. Britain?

See the pattern?

A year or two later and the "rolex" is defunct. Just like the diplomas.

Yeah, they're a worrisome bunch.

 

[Jroc]

(...) China can not invent a decent engine to save their lives. They get by with stealing, copying and using their work base as slaves to society.(...)

You should consult 'rdean' for data on yearly Chinese university graduates.
Talking China small maybe works in the US in-front of American audience in romantic dreams of the past.
Sooner or later, you will also wake up.

And they still can not design a decent engine both in civic or military. I'll start worrying once they don't have to buy all their engines (and much more militarily speaking) from Russia.

How many graduates they turn out is just like how many knock offs of rolex watches they churn out. Turkey turns out a lot of Doctors and guess what? They must be retested when they emigrate to in Canada. India? Sorry, no? Pakistan Yes. Turkey? Yes. Britain?

See the pattern?

A year or two later and the "rolex" is defunct. Just like the diplomas.

Yeah, their a worrisome bunch.

China is always going to be at a disadvantage. Ok right now they are doing ok (Mainly the government not most of the people) but were is the incentive to innovate? The people work and most profits go to the government their system cannot last as it is.

 

[Ropey]

America is starting to look at India as a major supporter of American consumerism as India is able to put in place a more stable protection control environment and which China has clearly been unable to implement.

America finally got Hu Jintao to say he will stop using Pirated Software in all his government run sectors.

The Floatilla

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh3knDnqaQ4"][/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg"]The Floatilla - "We Con the World."[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Nice video by Mr. Shitslinger.

Israel goons board a ship in international waters to kidnap the people and steal their stuff and claims they had to defend themselves.

Only in Zioland...

 

[Ropey]

They want to brace a blockade? Then they will get what comes. Now they have turned it into a Floatilla Fight. The blockade is now on fighting terms, not boarding terms.

Where are the further floatillas if it worked?

It failed.

 

[georgephillip]

Who Conned Shaban Karmout?

"But despite all that, the 65-year-old Shaban Karmout probably had something like hope when he woke up on that winter morning. His house is in the 300 meter wide strip of land in the so-called buffer zone. He built his house 40 years ago, in 1971, when Gaza was already occupied by Israel, and yet he thought to have a future there for himself and his family. Shaban began to plant fruits, his land was full of palms and trees, lemon, orange, clementine and almond trees were growing there. He had a good life.

"But in 2003, just at the time of the almond harvest, the Israeli bulldozers came in the middle of the night.

"It took them three hours to raze the work of 30 years to the ground.

"Since the Israeli attack in 2009, he could no longer live there, the buffer zone had become too dangerous, where his home was, which has now been declared a closed combat zone by Israel. He had since lived in a small rented concrete house in the middle of the refugee camp near Bait Hanoun, in Jabalia, cramped in a tiny apartment with his large family.

"He went back to his land, every morning, and worked there until the evening. He and his family had to make a living from something, after all. And so this morning, in the morning of the 10th January 2011, he woke up with hope, around 4 o’clock, and left for his fields.

"Full of hope he was because he and his neighbors had recently received a new well, their old one had been destroyed by an Israeli tank incursion. The Italian NGO GVC had built the well, it was financed by the Italian government.

"On that day he was visited by an employee of the organization, to see how his situation had improved.

"She had an interview with him, and he asked her to come into the house, as it would be not safe outside. As she left, he advised her to rather take a short cut, you never know. He told her that he himself still had to go into the garden once more to tie his donkey.

"The NGO worker had just reached the village of Bait Hanoun, as three shots fell.

"One hit Shaban in the neck, two others in the upper part of his body.

"He was dead on the spot.

"'It’s like a nightmare,' the Italian said, stunned.
"'I will never see him again.
"'From here to the morgue in two hours. '”

Israel is the nightmare.

The world is waking.

Fuck you and yours.

 

[georgephillip]

They want to brace a blockade? Then they will get what comes. Now they have turned it into a Floatilla Fight. The blockade is now on fighting terms, not boarding terms.

Where are the further floatillas if it worked?

It failed.

They're on the way, Adolph.

Bring torpedo boats this time.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They want to brace a blockade? Then they will get what comes. Now they have turned it into a Floatilla Fight. The blockade is now on fighting terms, not boarding terms.

Where are the further floatillas if it worked?

It failed.

GAZA, (PIC)-- Senior member of the Gaza-bound Road to Hope aid convoy Ken O'Keefe said Wednesday that several "ambitious projects" to break the siege on Gaza are under way.

O'Keefe, a former US Marine, was on board the Mavi Marmara ship that was lethally attacked last May. He joined the Road to Hope convoy in October 2010.

He told students at the Gaza community college of tourism studies that large ships were being prepared to provide the strip with supply the Strip with medicine and other medical aid.

He added that the siege had a negative mental and physical impact on the students, who are a large segment of Palestinian society.

O'Keefe pledged to supply as much educational aid possible to serve Gaza students at the college.

Road to Hope Convoy: 'Ambitious' projects are under way

 

[Ropey]

GAZA, (PIC)-- Senior member of the Gaza-bound Road to Hope aid convoy Ken O'Keefe said Wednesday that several "ambitious projects" to break the siege on Gaza are under way.

They're on the way, Adolph.

Bring torpedo boats this time.

We see nothing "on the way".

More wishing?

Praying? We pray for our G-d to not tarry. Is that what you are doing with the floatillas?

They're nowhere to be seen.

 

[Ropey]

If they stop the fight and move to Western peace with Israel?

Oh, it's a fight taken for the sake of Islamic jihad though.

It is right in your eyes.

Peace with Israel? Not in my eyes, no.

Yes, Muslims are clear.

 

[georgephillip]

King was also clear

From: USTOGAZA:

"King’s words live in Palestinian city
January 15, 2011
By Dorothy M. Zellner

"As a veteran of the 1960s civil rights movement, I hope this year’s Martin Luther King Day will be more than the usual constant repetition of his 'I have a dream' speech. This has flattened the very essence of the movement, which was the vastness and the vibrancy of hundreds of thousands of 'ordinary' people who wouldn’t and couldn’t stand for any more indignities and any more insults.

"I know because I was in Georgia, Virginia and Mississippi as a staffer of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee; I spent two years in Atlanta.

"This great movement of African-American civilians and their white allies lacked an army or air force, yet we imprinted our freedom demands on the national consciousness for the following decades and presumably, for decades to come.

"There are other movements of civil society in every continent of the world. The one I have seen with my own eyes is the movement of Palestinians resisting Israel’s occupation.

"It may surprise people to know that Palestinians read Dr. King’s words and call his name and study the American civil rights movement, among other histories of other peoples, for ways to bring to the attention of the world the fact that little by little, their land is disappearing along with their rights.

"The center of this effort now is in small West Bank villages like Ni’lin and Bil’in, where non-violent demonstrations have taken place weekly — for years. Yet these non-violent demonstrations of civilians are met with Israeli armed might."

"Read his words."

"Call his name."

The flotillas will never stop coming.

 

[Jos]

All-Canadian boat aims to bring aid to Gaza

VANCOUVER—A British Columbia activist who was on last year’s Gaza-bound flotilla when it was raided by Israeli forces says he is going back, this time on an all-Canadian boat.

The Canadian Boat for Gaza initiative is in the process of raising $300,000 for a boat that would deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza.

All-Canadian boat aims to bring aid to Gaza

 

[Jroc]

All-Canadian boat aims to bring aid to Gaza

VANCOUVER—A British Columbia activist who was on last year’s Gaza-bound flotilla when it was raided by Israeli forces says he is going back, this time on an all-Canadian boat.

The Canadian Boat for Gaza initiative is in the process of raising $300,000 for a boat that would deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza.

All-Canadian boat aims to bring aid to Gaza

They can bring all the aid thy want so long as they go to the proper port for inspection first. doesn't matter what flag they fly.

 

[P F Tinmore]

All-Canadian boat aims to bring aid to Gaza

VANCOUVER—A British Columbia activist who was on last year’s Gaza-bound flotilla when it was raided by Israeli forces says he is going back, this time on an all-Canadian boat.

The Canadian Boat for Gaza initiative is in the process of raising $300,000 for a boat that would deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza.

All-Canadian boat aims to bring aid to Gaza

They can bring all the aid thy want so long as they go to the proper port for inspection first. doesn't matter what flag they fly.

They are putting Israel's crimes on the front page.

I would call that winning.