More on the flotilla

[P F Tinmore]

If war generates profits how come the US is bankrupt?

Because the people who profit are different than the people who pay.

 

[High_Gravity]

If war generates profits how come the US is bankrupt?

Because the people who profit are different than the people who pay.

Than maybe the people who profit should share the wealth to make people more supportive of the wars.

 

[Ropey]

Note how PF can not even admit to a simple error. He simply passes his mistakes and moves to other attacks.

This is why true discussion is useless with PF.

This is a proof of his intractability and inability to learn from his own mistakes.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They indoctrinate their young and then use them as their fighting devices as well as turn them into media splashes on the web.

Palestinian Textbooks Preach Hate and Support Terrorism



The lies and hatred taught to Palestinian schoolchildren are discussed in detail for pages in this report. You can download it in Acrobat or a Word document from the PMW site.

Could you post the quote?

They indoctrinate their young and then use them as their fighting devices as well as turn them into media splashes on the web.

Palestinian Textbooks Preach Hate and Support Terrorism



The lies and hatred taught to Palestinian schoolchildren are discussed in detail for pages in this report. You can download it in Acrobat or a Word document from the PMW site.

The question is whether the U.S. should continue funding the PA and the hate-filled textbooks used in indoctrinating Palestinian youth. Last week, former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy, who helped put the 1993 WTC bombers behind bars, proposed a cessation of all funding after another attack by Aqsa Brigades terrorists, who are tied to Abbas, Fatah, and Hezbollah. Obviously, American taxpayers’ funds have already been used to brainwash Palestinian kids into hating America and their own neighbors. Hopefully Congress, when passing foreign aid appropriations for the next fiscal year, will either cut off all aid or condition further aid on a change in the PA educational system to excise the hate.

[...] “We will annihilate the Jews,” says a little girl, prompted by a Hamas terrorist wearing a Mickey Rat costume. This is the Palestinian version of the Mouseketeers, er, ah, “Tomorrow’s Pioneers.” Once again, the hateful, racist brainwashing of Palestinian children has been exposed. Thanks to an outcry by the blogsphere and mainstream media, “Hamas militants have suspended a TV program that featured a Mickey Mouse lookalike urging Palestinian children to fight Israel and work for global Islamic domination.” [...]

The quote is by me. Read above.

I find you very lost to reality PF. You read to simply negate. High_Gravity posted a quote of me forwarding another quote.

This is a quote of me posting a quote ...

Doh! Do I need to repeat it again?

You are truly a lost mind PF.

I questioned what PMW said that you posted. If they just pulled it out of their hat, it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Ropey]

Who did they murder?

I don't remember.

Who did you hear it was?

I don't know.

PF's finest hour.

An unread book is like an untaught mind PF.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Note how PF can not even admit to a simple error. He simply passes his mistakes and moves to other attacks.

This is why true discussion is useless with PF.

This is a proof of his intractability and inability to learn from his own mistakes.

Like what?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Like you're constantly demonizing Israel as the root of all evil in this world.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Like you're constantly demonizing Israel as the root of all evil in this world.

What have I said that was not true?

 

[Kalam]

It was not much of a blockade in those first years. Palestinians continually came in to work and

In what universe is a complete closure of borders not considered "much of a blockade"?

"With the border sealed, Gaza has become a vast open air jail or as locals call it, the "Big Cage." Most of the 100,000 Palestinians who used to have jobs in Israel can no longer get to work." - BBC, 2001

"In closed meetings held over the weekend [8-9 September], Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said workers from the territories will no longer work in Israel because they have assisted in the murder of many Israelis." - Voice of Israel, 2001​

blow themselves and their young up around Israeli citizenry.

Please leave your stereotypes at the door and substantiate your claims with data from a credible sources, because I have no interest in reading a catalog of Zionist talking points and I suspect that you are more than capable of higher levels of discussion than this. What may suffice for those of your allies who are accustomed to swallowing propaganda will get you nowhere with me. My claims will be specific and supported by linked evidence; I expect the same courtesy from you.

The blockade increased. Act for act, Israel has always (when they chose to) responded with increased severity.

Not really. The closures described above were replaced by a sanctions regime in 2006, used as yet another, harsher method of collectively punishing Palestinians for exercising self-determination after Hamas won a majority of seats in legislative elections and formed a unity government with Fatah. Palestinian political stability was undermined once again when the US and Israel, who had been clandestinely providing Fatah with tens of millions of dollars in arms and other military resources, began preparing that group for a military takeover. This was preempted by Hamas, which took full control of the strip in 2007. I consider all of this to be common knowledge, though I'll be happy to seek out documentation of any claim of mine that you choose to dispute.

The borders have been sealed completely since 2007, trapping everyone inside the strip as well as depriving them of basic necessities -- even completely innocuous goods with no military use whatsoever -- for no reason other than to humiliate them, it seems:

"The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys." - BBC, 2010​

How kind of them to finally allow Palestinian children to have shoes! Perhaps they'll be able to have textiles in a few years.

Alternating missile attacks by Hamas and airstrikes by Israel eventually led to a lull in the fighting during the fall of 2008. During the month of October, Zionist sources confirm that no more than one rocket and one mortar were fired from the strip into Israel. From the beginning of July to the end of October, the Zionists account for 15 mortars and 11 rockets, resulting in zero Israeli deaths and presumably launched by groups other than Hamas.

Israeli Embassy/"Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center", 2008 [PDF]

This period came to an end when Israel failed to make appreciable progress toward increasing the flow of humanitarian goods into the strip and launched an incursion into the territory on November 4th of that year which killed 6 members of Hamas, supposedly in order to destroy a violative tunnel. The resumption of hostilities led to the IDF massacre with which I believe we are all familiar.

This is why discussion is so hard here.

Only if you choose to make it so.

Even the moderates such as Sunni Man and Kalam can only see one side which means they must support everything that Hamas does.

I have never described myself as a "moderate" and am only supportive of Hamas insofar as they claim to be resisting Israel and working toward the creation of an Islamic society in Palestine. I do not support their alleged targeting of civilians or their recent alleged willingness to recognize the Zionist state. I also don't consider the structure of their government to be consistent with Shari'ah.

 

[Ropey]

It was not much of a blockade in those first years. Palestinians continually came in to work and

In what universe is a complete closure of borders not considered "much of a blockade"?

With the border sealed, Gaza has become a vast open air jail or as locals call it, the "Big Cage." Most of the 100,000 Palestinians who used to have jobs in Israel can no longer get to work. - BBC, 2001

BBC is a tool of Arabians and you.

In closed meetings held over the weekend [8-9 September], Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said workers from the territories will no longer work in Israel because they have assisted in the murder of many Israelis. - Voice of Israel, 2001

In 2006 Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election, triggering the 2006-2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority by Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East. In 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a Palestinan authority national unity government headed by Ismail Haniya. Shortly after, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in the course of the Battle of Gaza,[1] seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other government officials with its own.[2] Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side.[3]

The Hamas did this by tossing the Fatah out of windows, etc. etc.

Over a recent weekend, Egypt’s deputy chief of intelligence, General Muhammad Ibrahim, spent two days in Ramallah just trying to convince the different Palestinian factions that they ought to turn up in Cairo on July 25 for the next round in the “national reconciliation” talks — the seventh such meeting since the spring of 2007, when Hamas threw Fatah out of the Gaza Strip (and also threw some Fatah officials out of high windows).

blow themselves and their young up around Israeli citizenry.

Please leave your stereotypes at the door and substantiate your claims with data from a credible sources, because I have no interest in reading a catalog of Zionist talking points and I suspect that you are more than capable of higher levels of discussion than this. What may suffice for those of your allies who are accustomed to swallowing propaganda will get you nowhere with me. My claims will be specific and supported by linked evidence; I expect the same courtesy from you.

Not a chance Kalam. They did it and continue to use their young. "We Desire Death Like You Desire Life"

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg[/ame]​

I will continue to post this even though your enlightenment does not like it. Kalam, view the dirty hands. See them. Embrace them. They are yours.

Not really. The closures described above were replaced by a sanctions regime in 2006, used as yet another, harsher method of collectively punishing Palestinians for exercising self-determination after Hamas won a majority of seats in legislative elections and formed a unity government with Fatah. Palestinian political stability was undermined once again when the US and Israel, who had been clandestinely providing Fatah with tens of millions of dollars in arms and other military resources, began preparing that group for a military takeover. This was preempted by Hamas, which took full control of the strip in 2007. I consider all of this to be common knowledge, though I'll be happy to seek out documentation of any claim of mine that you choose to dispute.

Yes, really. The closures came at the borders to Israel because of what Hamas was doing and saying during the Gaza Takeover. But we still let them in Kalam.

They came in and began to suicide bomb.

The borders have been sealed completely since 2007, trapping everyone inside the strip as well as depriving them of basic necessities -- even completely innocuous goods with no military use whatsoever -- for no reason other than to humiliate them, it seems:

No, to stop this when the borders were far looser:

"The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

BBC = England = London = Largest population of Muslims who are controlling large media portions and shipping their 'stuff' to you which you spew as if it was truth.

Newsflash Kalam. It's not...

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys."[/I] - BBC, 2010

Not so, see above.

How kind of them to finally allow Palestinian children to have shoes! Perhaps they'll be able to have textiles in a few years.

It's not the shoes they are not spending money on Kalam. It is the weapons they are spending the shoes money on. Shoes come in.

Alternating missile attacks by Hamas and airstrikes by Israel eventually led to a lull in the fighting during the fall of 2008. During the month of October, Zionist sources confirm that no more than one rocket and one mortar were fired from the strip into Israel. From the beginning of July to the end of October, the Zionists account for 15 mortars and 11 rockets, resulting in zero Israeli deaths and presumably launched by groups other than Hamas.

So, blame the Jews for being better able to respond and kill those who are trying to kill them?

This period came to an end when Israel failed to make appreciable progress toward increasing the flow of humanitarian goods into the strip and launched an incursion into the territory on November 4th of that year which killed 6 members of Hamas, supposedly in order to destroy a violative tunnel. The resumption of hostilities led to the IDF massacre with which I believe we are all familiar.

See above....

This is why discussion is so hard here.

Only if you choose to make it so.

This is just useless diatribe from me and you. But, I can do this too if you wish.

Even the moderates such as Sunni Man and Kalam can only see one side which means they must support everything that Hamas does.

I have never described myself as a "moderate" and am only supportive of Hamas insofar as they claim to be resisting Israel and working toward the creation of an Islamic society in Palestine. I do not support their alleged targeting of civilians or their recent alleged willingness to recognize the Zionist state. I also don't consider the structure of their government to be consistent with Shari'ah.

You are clear. Now I understand you.

One question though, to be completely clear Kalam.

Is there any room for Israel in the ME? If so, what is that room?

 

[High_Gravity]

Whats up with those spanking new malls, restaurants and shopping marts? I thought the people in Gaza were starving?

 

[Kalam]

I respond fully to each of your points and you give me this sorry excuse for a post with more silly propaganda, baseless claims, and useless anecdotal evidence?

Perhaps you'd like to try again.

 

[Kalam]

Whats up with those spanking new malls, restaurants and shopping marts? I thought the people in Gaza were starving?

[citation needed]

 

[High_Gravity]

Whats up with those spanking new malls, restaurants and shopping marts? I thought the people in Gaza were starving?

[citation needed]

Why?

 

[Ropey]

I respond fully to each of your points and you give me this sorry excuse for a post with more silly propaganda, baseless claims, and useless anecdotal evidence?

Perhaps you'd like to try again.

Not at all. Your arrogance tosses out everything you do not want to respond to with the above 'stuff' that is not discussion.

It's your drivel Kalam. Own it.

 

[Kalam]

I respond fully to each of your points and you give me this sorry excuse for a post with more silly propaganda, baseless claims, and useless anecdotal evidence?

Perhaps you'd like to try again.

Not at all. Your arrogance tosses out everything you do not want to respond to with the above 'stuff' that is not discussion.

It's your drivel Kalam. Own it.

I'm not sure what gave you that idea, because I'm happy to respond to any argument that relies on well-sourced claims and cool-headed rationality. Spouting Zionist mantras, rejecting evidence from mainstream news outlets without specifically indicating what is inaccurate and why (with proof), and relying completely on unverifiable and anecdotal evidence like the pictures you posted is propaganda, not discussion.

 

[Kalam]

Whats up with those spanking new malls, restaurants and shopping marts? I thought the people in Gaza were starving?

[citation needed]

Why?

Because when a person makes a claim in a discussion and expects other people to believe it, they assume the responsibility of proving it true.

 

[High_Gravity]

[citation needed]

Why?

Because when a person makes a claim in a discussion and expects other people to believe it, they assume the responsibility of proving it true.

Ropey posted pictures of the new shopping malls, restaurants and supermarkets, that shopping mall looks better than the ones available to me here in the States, are you saying those pics are a fraud?

 

[Ropey]

I respond fully to each of your points

You are clear. Now I understand you.

One question though, to be completely clear Kalam.

Is there any room for Israel in the ME? If so, what is that room?

No answer?

 

[Kalam]

Why?

Because when a person makes a claim in a discussion and expects other people to believe it, they assume the responsibility of proving it true.

Ropey posted pictures of the new shopping malls, restaurants and supermarkets, that shopping mall looks better than the ones available to me here in the States, are you saying those pics are a fraud?

Do we know when they were taken, where they were taken, when the buildings were built, or anything about the context of the pictures? Their accuracy aside, they are anecdotal evidence and the image of prosperity you are attempting to paint contradicts what we know to be true.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/downloads/oxfam_gaza_lowres.pdf

If Gaza is a beacon of prosperity with nicer things than those available to you now, consider moving there and experiencing the "prosperity" for yourself...